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Drager wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
But at that point, why not just throw sisters in there? Only 1 or 2 points more per model (depending on whether you use regular sisters or Dominions), and they come with BS3+, better armour for when they have to get out, as well as access to acts of faith.

Sisters don't get reroll can't take 6 models with 6 special weapons and can't use acts of faith whilst embarked (I think) so are way more expensive for the same guns.

Sisters hit 33% more often, can take 5-man squads with 5 special weapons (Dominions), and their guns cost the same. And unlike Acolytes, which are pretty much instantly dead the moment they are out on their own, Dominions have a solid 3+ save which makes them decently resilient on the table, and allows them to tie up non-dedicated CC units (they also get acts of faith and Canoness rerolls once unembarked). Moreover, Dominions get a vanguard movement, which means you can get them into firing position sooner.

With Dominions, that's 2 points more per man. Not even close to "way more" expensive.

 Fafnir wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
But at that point, why not just throw sisters in there? Only 1 or 2 points more per model (depending on whether you use regular sisters or Dominions), and they come with BS3+, better armour for when they have to get out, as well as access to acts of faith.

Sisters don't get reroll can't take 6 models with 6 special weapons and can't use acts of faith whilst embarked (I think) so are way more expensive for the same guns.

Sisters hit 33% more often, can take 5-man squads with 5 special weapons (Dominions), and their guns cost the same. And unlike Acolytes, which are pretty much instantly dead the moment they are out on their own, Dominions have a solid 3+ save which makes them decently resilient on the table, and allows them to tie up non-dedicated CC units (they also get acts of faith and Canoness rerolls once unembarked). Moreover, Dominions get a vanguard movement, which means you can get them into firing position sooner.

With Dominions, that's 2 points more per man. Not even close to "way more" expensive.

Can you put SoB in drop pods?

We weren't talking about sisters in drop pods. We were talking about putting sisters and acolytes into repressors. A role that Sisters do considerably better.

If you're looking for a deepstriking special weapon squad, Tempestus Scions do the same role as a drop podding acolyte squad, but with much better performance and efficiency and without the need to pay for the pod (further improving that efficiency). Better yet, they can take a Tempestor prime for access to command squads and orders (a Temestus command squad with plasma guns and a tempestor prime with plasma pistol costs 17 points less than an Acolyte Squad with plasma guns while doing more hits with their shooting and being more survivable thanks to the better save).

There is not a single role in the game where Acolytes can be considered a competitive choice.

I know you werent. But you should! You can put Acolytes in drop pods. Thank makes them fit my army way better.

Why use a drop Pod when you could just use Scions doing the same hting without paying over 100 extra pts for it.

Unless the aim is to drop pod in the inquisitor himself aswell, if that's the plan then WHY?

because nobody expects the Inquisition to step out of a Space Marine Drop Pod!

GAdvance wrote:
Why use a drop Pod when you could just use Scions doing the same hting without paying over 100 extra pts for it.

Unless the aim is to drop pod in the inquisitor himself aswell, if that's the plan then WHY?

Well, primarily for fun.

I have a list with 3x inquisitors (plasma guns) and 6x plasma gun Acolytes in a drop pod. +3x 5x Interceptors and two vindicare.

That's at 1000 points.

For 68 pts you can get an Inq with a plasma gun and smite.

Pretty viable DS unit in my eyes.

I've been considering trying to add a SM psyker that can provide a psychic cover save. That's BA or DA right?

The Cover save is Space Wolves and only affects space wolf units

I think the poor old Inquisition has mostly fallen out of my list for the moment. Once there's room in the budget and in the paint queue, I'll try 3 Bullgryns with maul and slabshield, an Inquisitor with maul (and Terrify), and a Priest with Eviscerator (and +1A buff) riding in a dual-heavy-flamer Chimera for somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 points.

Or maybe just wait for a codex that fixes some of these playability issues!

Inquisition are a really nice way to boost your leadership remember.

I've been using mine as a HQ detachment for Leadership and Smite/Terrify support for my sisters armies to pretty good effect.

As far as acolytes....the nerf really hurt but they are still somewhere between Scions and Guard Infantry.

Better Leadership, more attacks, can be taken as a unit of one, can ride in any transport, and can be given an ordos that gives them a reroll on a 1 for various targets. Saying they have no role is a bit misleading. Anyone thought of using them with power mauls? A cheap S5 melee unit is not a bad support unit for an inquisitor. (2 swings each at S5 for 12 points...) Same could be said for a cheap storm bolter or needle pistol delivery to take down large wound non vehicle units.

Also with Ld 7 and min size of 1 model you can effectively eliminate moral from these units by just taking 2 models per unit.

Bigfashizzel wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why use a drop Pod when you could just use Scions doing the same hting without paying over 100 extra pts for it.

Unless the aim is to drop pod in the inquisitor himself aswell, if that's the plan then WHY?

Well, primarily for fun.

I have a list with 3x inquisitors (plasma guns) and 6x plasma gun Acolytes in a drop pod. +3x 5x Interceptors and two vindicare.

That's at 1000 points.

For 68 pts you can get an Inq with a plasma gun and smite.

Pretty viable DS unit in my eyes.

If you have fun with it, great (seriously, that's a good thing. I myself can't find any fun in the Inquisitional list because it's been so robbed of life and flavour, but if you can get some of your money's worth out of it, that's awesome). But it's not viable. Everything those Acolytes are going to do to compete with scions/guard, Scions are going to end up doing better and with much greater point efficiency.

sfshilo wrote:Inquisition are a really nice way to boost your leadership remember.

I've been using mine as a HQ detachment for Leadership and Smite/Terrify support for my sisters armies to pretty good effect.

As far as acolytes....the nerf really hurt but they are still somewhere between Scions and Guard Infantry.

They're between scions and guardsmen, sure, but far closer on the side to the standard guardsman. Moreover, they still cost more than both once you outfit them with similar weaponry.

As far as Inquisitors providing a leadership buff, remember that you're spending a minimum of 55 points for that buff. For most of the units that might make use of that buff, you're only getting 1 extra point of leadership. If you're not running them as multiple small units (in which case, their leadership will never be a problem anyway), then you'll often get more value just buying an additional model for that unit. And Astra Telepathica gets Terrifying Visions, which is better than the Inquisition's Terrify for messing with enemy morale checks as well.

In order to make Inquisitors fill a role, you have to intentionally make a gap in your forces just to fit them in, pretty much. To the point where it's generally going to be easier and more effective to ignore them entirely and fill that gap with more competent list building strategies.

Better Leadership, more attacks, can be taken as a unit of one, can ride in any transport, and can be given an ordos that gives them a reroll on a 1 for various targets. Saying they have no role is a bit misleading. Anyone thought of using them with power mauls? A cheap S5 melee unit is not a bad support unit for an inquisitor. (2 swings each at S5 for 12 points...) Same could be said for a cheap storm bolter or needle pistol delivery to take down large wound non vehicle units.

Also with Ld 7 and min size of 1 model you can effectively eliminate moral from these units by just taking 2 models per unit.

Arco Flagellants hit on 3s with rerolls (Zealot), get more attacks (and way more out of a Priest buff, should you take one), a better save, have two wounds instead of one, better movement, and are only 15 points per model. They used to have a role in melee with W3, but since the nerf, they're massively outclassed.

 sfshilo wrote:
Inquisition are a really nice way to boost your leadership remember.

I've been using mine as a HQ detachment for Leadership and Smite/Terrify support for my sisters armies to pretty good effect.

As far as acolytes....the nerf really hurt but they are still somewhere between Scions and Guard Infantry.

Better Leadership, more attacks, can be taken as a unit of one, can ride in any transport, and can be given an ordos that gives them a reroll on a 1 for various targets. Saying they have no role is a bit misleading. Anyone thought of using them with power mauls? A cheap S5 melee unit is not a bad support unit for an inquisitor. (2 swings each at S5 for 12 points...) Same could be said for a cheap storm bolter or needle pistol delivery to take down large wound non vehicle units.

Also with Ld 7 and min size of 1 model you can effectively eliminate moral from these units by just taking 2 models per unit.

Problem is they're having to borrow another Imperium armies transport to put his melee unit in combat and for pretty much the entire rest of the Imperium there is something tha could go in that transport with the inquisitor that would do the same job but better

If Jokaero could get in transports (drop pods) I'd use the acolytes. For now you've convinced me to use Scions

Inquisitors, I've been granted access to the armies attending the upcoming ATC tournament. Several top players DO believe Acolytes have a competitive niche!

... in flyer spam lists (:V)

I'll be throwing death cult in even if they can't hide in transports. If you run them carefully they will either draw all the firr or get in to combat. Psyker inquisitors are underated.

In the era of conscript spams, reducing leadership and stopping overwatch fire then piling in some death cult (5 attacks each with priest) a unit of 10 (excuse math hammer) shpuld be killing 30 guardsmen in a round of combat.

My list will feature guardsmen for the heavy weapon teams and chimeras and just basic acolytes with bolt guns. 48 points for an objective claiming unit with maneuverability is a win for me.

We will see how that goes of course and this'll be happening because I only have acolytes with bolters. ..

Conscripts don't care about leadership though. They ignore morale thanks to Commissars.

 Fafnir wrote:
Conscripts don't care about leadership though. They ignore morale thanks to Commissars.

Vindicare was added to cart

I think you're greatly overestimating the Vindicare's potential, especially if your opponent ever decides to take more than one Commissar (or, hell, even just a Lord Commissar). You're going to find that the Vindicare, at least alone, is going to disappoint you more often than not. And if you do start paying for multiple, your opponent is already winning with you spending a considerably large amount of points on a pretty mediocre unit with limited utility.

And even if you do manage to get really lucky with the Vindicare, and your opponent is stupid enough not to supply adequate Commissar redundancies, he can still just command point his way through any morale losses.

Your problem is that you're assuming your opponent is an idiot. Don't. You should always assume your opponent is at least smarter than yourself when making such comparisons.

Assassins work best in twos and threes, not by themselves.

Even if you invest in multiples, a Commissar costs 30 points. That's an arms race that you can never win, just to focus down a model that's going to cost a third of a single Vindicare. It's in no way a viable counter.

Don't forget that an acolyte with a bolter and bolt pistol is the same price as one with a laspistol and chainsword! Take the free sidearm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, commissars can't deny the witch. Personally, I take both!

 Fafnir wrote:
I think you're greatly overestimating the Vindicare's potential, especially if your opponent ever decides to take more than one Commissar (or, hell, even just a Lord Commissar). You're going to find that the Vindicare, at least alone, is going to disappoint you more often than not. And if you do start paying for multiple, your opponent is already winning with you spending a considerably large amount of points on a pretty mediocre unit with limited utility.

And even if you do manage to get really lucky with the Vindicare, and your opponent is stupid enough not to supply adequate Commissar redundancies, he can still just command point his way through any morale losses.

Your problem is that you're assuming your opponent is an idiot. Don't. You should always assume your opponent is at least smarter than yourself when making such comparisons.

You anticipate Commissar spam? They're an elite choice with 3 wounds. The Vindicare exists to force positioning and punish if they stray too far away from the 4x or 6x commissars. Either way, thats a hefty Force Org investment in a conscript blob. You might be right. The lord commissar gets an extra wound and is an HQ. How many HQs/Elites are you expecting to see dedicated to conscript morale?

What are these conscripts even protecting at this point? Could I take 6x Vindicare to try to remove the Commissars? Sure. Could I also spend over 500 points on things to kill the conscripts? Sure. Could I spend 500 points on killing whatever they're trying to bubble-wrap? Sure.

Trying to do up an Inquisition list on Battlescribe but it doesn't seem right: the Inquisition selection is missing loads of options and the acolytes have 1 wound not the fabled 3.

Is it just not done yet or are you guys finding it somewhere else?

Thanks

 Otto Weston wrote:
Trying to do up an Inquisition list on Battlescribe but it doesn't seem right: the Inquisition selection is missing loads of options and the acolytes have 1 wound not the fabled 3.

Is it just not done yet or are you guys finding it somewhere else?

Thanks

As of the FAQ, Acolytes no longer have 3 wounds. They only have 1. Can't really answer the other stuff as I haven't even tried to make an Inquisition detachment in Battlescribe yet.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Trying to do up an Inquisition list on Battlescribe but it doesn't seem right: the Inquisition selection is missing loads of options and the acolytes have 1 wound not the fabled 3.

Is it just not done yet or are you guys finding it somewhere else?

Thanks

As of the FAQ, Acolytes no longer have 3 wounds. They only have 1. Can't really answer the other stuff as I haven't even tried to make an Inquisition detachment in Battlescribe yet.

Oh okay. Thought 3 was high but I was expecting 2 wounds for 'plot armour' after an FAQ but it seems like they gutted them.

I also have an Inquisition Land Raider but they only have access to the Prometheus now or are the other variants being accepted later?

I find Plasma Acolytes to be pretty cool; if you can get the correct Ordo (e.g. Playing against Xenos or GK) you get re-rolls to hit and wound. That puts them at significantly higher % throughput than marine equivalents.

I think the special weapons might be overcosted; especially with all the power gaming shenanigans going on, but they're not #unplayable as a lot of people seem to suggest. Increase the max unit size to 10 and I'd be more comfortable using them.

As it stands, they're the only decent thing I have to try to balance against DS alpha strike with Coteaz's intercept rule.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I also have an Inquisition Land Raider but they only have access to the Prometheus now or are the other variants being accepted later?

The Inquisitorial Prometheus is just the only Land Raider with Ordo keyword. Other Land Raiders can still be part of your army and be boarded by Inquisitors and Acolytes as per the "Authority ..." rule.

From today:

Page 120 – Inquisitor, Wargear Options
Change the first and second bullet points to read:
‘• This model may replace its bolt pistol with an item
from the Inquisition Pistol Weapons or Inquisition Ranged
Weapons lists.
• This model may replace its chainsword with one item
from the Inquisition Melee Weapons list.’

Page 122 – Acolytes
Change the Wounds characteristic to read ‘1’.

Page 123 – Jokaero Weaponsmith, Abilities
Add the following ability to this datasheet:
‘Authority of the Inquisition (pg 117)’

Jokaero being able to sit in transports is nice (what about Daemonhosts?), but Inquisition is still hot garbage. We're in need of a major rewrite to be playable, tiny alterations here and there just aren't going to cut it.

 Fafnir wrote:
Jokaero being able to sit in transports is nice (what about Daemonhosts?), but Inquisition is still hot garbage. We're in need of a major rewrite to be playable, tiny alterations here and there just aren't going to cut it.

Yes, I'm glad I can put some of my inquisitor models back on the board With wysiwyg weapons, but we still have a problem. For me it's the loss of the cool mixed squads of crusaders/DCA/ acolytes. Etc.

Also I'm really torn between keeping my plasma acolytes (to get the quarry rule) or dropping one them them and calling it a scion command squad - to get deep strike, better bs better armour and still re rolling 1s with the right order from a tempest or prime.
( four plasma scions + 1 prime = 104 points vs 5 plasma acolytes for 105 points)

ALSO - what is the deal with jokaero? Great that they can go in the transport, but the only work on ordo units, who already have the quarry rule, so the chance of getting re-roll hit and re-roll wounds is kind of meh. (Although I guess could come in handy if you are often playing imperial armies or a tournament where you have to keep the same Ordo for all your games (good luck!)