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2017/09/20 16:41:47
Subject: Re:Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
More cops available with better training and tools would result in less loss of life.
The thing I've noticed from people bringing up other country's dealings.. Is that they are much smaller, police are easily more available, and they don't have to patrol area's much larger with more people due to the size of the nation and area's they need to deal with.
Unless people are enlisting enmass to join the police, there's never going to be a situation where you can suddenly spare 20 cops to deal with one person.
2017/09/20 16:53:54
Subject: Re:Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
More cops available with better training and tools would result in less loss of life.
The thing I've noticed from people bringing up other country's dealings.. Is that they are much smaller, police are easily more available, and they don't have to patrol area's much larger with more people due to the size of the nation and area's they need to deal with.
Unless people are enlisting enmass to join the police, there's never going to be a situation where you can suddenly spare 20 cops to deal with one person.
North American cities have similar population density as other countries where 'causing a scene' isn't likely to get you shot.
It's a matter of will. Willing to spend 700 billion to blow up some farmers and their families on the other side of the world. There must be some wiggle room in the budget there to properly fund the domestic police force.
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2017/09/20 18:42:56
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Desubot wrote: thanks i remember hearing about it somewhere at some time. and i remember thinking... why.
I think the rationale was anyone who scores that high is likely to eat up a bunch of training and then get bored and move on. I definitely can't say whether it's an accurate rationale or not.
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2017/09/20 19:44:56
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
redleger wrote: Seems like there is no situation, per some peoples opinion where killing a violent suspect is going to be justified in their eyes. Just because you choose service to community, state, or country with an understanding it can be dangerous does not mean you run around trying to get yourself killed so someone with a knife trying to kill you doesn't have to accept the consequences of said actions. I know for a fact there are bad police out there, but once again the number of bad to good is not what the media would have you believe.
example: As a Soldier we had escalation of force lines at checkpoints. way far out we would attempt to signal them to stop, at a point there would be road spikes, we would use very bright lazer to attempt to blind the driver and make him pull over, etc. Once the distance was closed in where a VBIED would be catastrophic to check point personnel that vehicle became riddled with .50 cal bullets. Occasionally it was just a dude being stupid. It's friggin tragic that the person would not follow directions knowing that a checkpoint of US Soldiers was directly in front of him.
Now how does that apply to this scenario you ask. the person with the knife had the ability to catastrophically cause damage. By catastrophic I mean kill a LEO or a student. By what I'm seeing from the perspective of some is that you should let that figurative VBIED get in the kill radius because maybe you could jump in and stop the guy from hitting the button before he explodes over everyone just to not have to defend yourself with lethal force? Because asking a cop to run up to a knife weilding unstable person could be seen in the same light. The point of the police is to help enforce the law. No where in the oath of a LEO is die trying to enforce said law. So yes we need to crack down on bad cops. Whether it be that imigrant cop who shot the Australian woman, or the one who shot the social worker trying to protect the autistic patient. But in this case, this specific case I can not in any way, from the POV of someone who has had people attempt to stab them and worse, fault this LEO for pulling the trigger.
You do know that suicidal people are not attempting to hurt people, just provoke an attack, right?
Much different than suicide bombers.
The danger is how unstable they are and how far they willing to go to cause the suicide by cop. They may not hurt anyone, they might kill to make it happen.
Also when someone is coming for the c op at the scene with a knife, who doesnt have time or necessarily the skills for the exploratory counseling session to determine their mental health.
Perhaps if there was an expendable Dreadwinter on the scene to intercede and either get slashed up for Allah, or slashed up for crazy, or perhaps not slashed up if the meds somehow kick in then cops will not be at risk. You volunteering?
What the feth does Allah have to do with this? I'm not sure I can explain this any more plainly. Suicide Bombers and Suicide by Cop are two completely different scenarios. If you can't understand that, well, maybe you should leave.
Also, I already work in a job that is more dangerous than that of a cop. I am regularly punched, I have had to restrain a person attempting to stab me with a needle, I have been sexually assaulted, I have had a patient threaten to throw me out of a third story window, and I have been kicked in the face by a patient. Guess what, didn't shoot them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 19:47:51
2017/09/20 19:50:34
Subject: Re:Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
More cops available with better training and tools would result in less loss of life.
The thing I've noticed from people bringing up other country's dealings.. Is that they are much smaller, police are easily more available, and they don't have to patrol area's much larger with more people due to the size of the nation and area's they need to deal with.
Unless people are enlisting enmass to join the police, there's never going to be a situation where you can suddenly spare 20 cops to deal with one person.
North American cities have similar population density as other countries where 'causing a scene' isn't likely to get you shot.
It's a matter of will. Willing to spend 700 billion to blow up some farmers and their families on the other side of the world. There must be some wiggle room in the budget there to properly fund the domestic police force.
The irony with that is that the federal govt will gladly give local police forces surplus military gear and vehicles, billions of dollars worth, but the DoJ doesn't fund police training anywhere close to the same degree. Police departments are primarily funded by the state/county/municipality they operate in so training budgets and size of the departments can vary wildly.
redleger wrote: Seems like there is no situation, per some peoples opinion where killing a violent suspect is going to be justified in their eyes. Just because you choose service to community, state, or country with an understanding it can be dangerous does not mean you run around trying to get yourself killed so someone with a knife trying to kill you doesn't have to accept the consequences of said actions. I know for a fact there are bad police out there, but once again the number of bad to good is not what the media would have you believe.
example: As a Soldier we had escalation of force lines at checkpoints. way far out we would attempt to signal them to stop, at a point there would be road spikes, we would use very bright lazer to attempt to blind the driver and make him pull over, etc. Once the distance was closed in where a VBIED would be catastrophic to check point personnel that vehicle became riddled with .50 cal bullets. Occasionally it was just a dude being stupid. It's friggin tragic that the person would not follow directions knowing that a checkpoint of US Soldiers was directly in front of him.
Now how does that apply to this scenario you ask. the person with the knife had the ability to catastrophically cause damage. By catastrophic I mean kill a LEO or a student. By what I'm seeing from the perspective of some is that you should let that figurative VBIED get in the kill radius because maybe you could jump in and stop the guy from hitting the button before he explodes over everyone just to not have to defend yourself with lethal force? Because asking a cop to run up to a knife weilding unstable person could be seen in the same light. The point of the police is to help enforce the law. No where in the oath of a LEO is die trying to enforce said law. So yes we need to crack down on bad cops. Whether it be that imigrant cop who shot the Australian woman, or the one who shot the social worker trying to protect the autistic patient. But in this case, this specific case I can not in any way, from the POV of someone who has had people attempt to stab them and worse, fault this LEO for pulling the trigger.
You do know that suicidal people are not attempting to hurt people, just provoke an attack, right?
Much different than suicide bombers.
The danger is how unstable they are and how far they willing to go to cause the suicide by cop. They may not hurt anyone, they might kill to make it happen.
Also when someone is coming for the c op at the scene with a knife, who doesnt have time or necessarily the skills for the exploratory counseling session to determine their mental health.
Perhaps if there was an expendable Dreadwinter on the scene to intercede and either get slashed up for Allah, or slashed up for crazy, or perhaps not slashed up if the meds somehow kick in then cops will not be at risk. You volunteering?
What the feth does Allah have to do with this? I'm not sure I can explain this any more plainly. Suicide Bombers and Suicide by Cop are two completely different scenarios. If you can't understand that, well, maybe you should leave.
Also, I already work in a job that is more dangerous than that of a cop. I am regularly punched, I have had to restrain a person attempting to stab me with a needle, I have been sexually assaulted, I have had a patient threaten to throw me out of a third story window, and I have been kicked in the face by a patient. Guess what, didn't shoot them.
If one of your patients became agitated and had a knife or other lethal weapon and you tried to subdue that patient you would be in a life or death situation in which you may have to use lethal force to save yourself and if you did have to use lethal force the law would be on your side to justify your actions. Same thing here, agitated person who was armed with a lethal weapon and when the situation reached a point wherein the officer felt a reasonable fear of imminent harm lethal force was used to end the threat. The use of lethal force isn't the only possible outcome for the incident in the OP but it is a justifiable one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/20 19:55:16
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/09/20 19:56:43
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Dreadwinter wrote: Also, I already work in a job that is more dangerous than that of a cop. I am regularly punched, I have had to restrain a person attempting to stab me with a needle, I have been sexually assaulted, I have had a patient threaten to throw me out of a third story window, and I have been kicked in the face by a patient. Guess what, didn't shoot them.
Man, Black Friday gets worse and worse!
Seriously, what profession?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 19:56:59
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2017/09/20 19:57:21
Subject: Re:Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
whembly wrote: Well... I know is anecdotal but I have fam all over the st. louis region working for city/county/sheriff police dept.
Training isn't the problem... in fact, they have loads of options. It's the overtime hours... not enough to go around.
Hence why when weird gak happens, like Ferguson riots and the recent St. Louis riots, these department ask for emergency fundings from the state.
Having lots of options for additional training but not having authorization to expend overtime to send officers to attend training creates a training deficit which is a problem. Regardless of why additional training isn't undertaken the lack of it poses a problem.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/09/20 20:00:08
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Dreadwinter wrote: Also, I already work in a job that is more dangerous than that of a cop. I am regularly punched, I have had to restrain a person attempting to stab me with a needle, I have been sexually assaulted, I have had a patient threaten to throw me out of a third story window, and I have been kicked in the face by a patient. Guess what, didn't shoot them.
Man, Black Friday gets worse and worse!
Seriously, what profession?
Nursing.
Prestor Jon wrote:If one of your patients became agitated and had a knife or other lethal weapon and you tried to subdue that patient you would be in a life or death situation in which you may have to use lethal force to save yourself and if you did have to use lethal force the law would be on your side to justify your actions. Same thing here, agitated person who was armed with a lethal weapon and when the situation reached a point wherein the officer felt a reasonable fear of imminent harm lethal force was used to end the threat. The use of lethal force isn't the only possible outcome for the incident in the OP but it is a justifiable one.
Uhhh, no the law would not be on my side if I used lethal force to stop a person. I would be immediately arrested because they are under my care. I would be required to disarm the person and do my best not to harm them while I waited for help to come. If they are under my care, I can not harm them legally. Throwing a punch would cause loss of license and jail time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/20 20:03:38
2017/09/20 20:12:28
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
feeder wrote: It really comes down to whether one thinks a psychotic break is reason enough for that person to lose their life.
More cops available with better training and tools would result in less loss of life.
Better training is always good. But keep in mind there have been more and more school (and university) shootings in the last decade, where someone just guns down the place for the lulz and gets put down themselves. Any situation like this (particularly if they were indeed reported as having a gun) has to be treated like the potential start for something similar. The Virginia Tech shooting probably would have wandered through the minds of these cops at least once.
But cops aren't mind readers. 'Psychotic break' isn't something they can be reasonably expected to assess. Visibly armed and non-compliant is, and the possibility of additional weapons is always a factor.
It's a bad situation, but the cops involved were definitely following their training, and doing so correctly. Too many of the other police shootings the last few years aren't as clear cut (or are, unfortunately, clear in the other direction).
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/09/20 21:30:28
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Dreadwinter wrote: Also, I already work in a job that is more dangerous than that of a cop. I am regularly punched, I have had to restrain a person attempting to stab me with a needle, I have been sexually assaulted, I have had a patient threaten to throw me out of a third story window, and I have been kicked in the face by a patient. Guess what, didn't shoot them.
Man, Black Friday gets worse and worse!
Seriously, what profession?
Nursing.
Prestor Jon wrote:If one of your patients became agitated and had a knife or other lethal weapon and you tried to subdue that patient you would be in a life or death situation in which you may have to use lethal force to save yourself and if you did have to use lethal force the law would be on your side to justify your actions. Same thing here, agitated person who was armed with a lethal weapon and when the situation reached a point wherein the officer felt a reasonable fear of imminent harm lethal force was used to end the threat. The use of lethal force isn't the only possible outcome for the incident in the OP but it is a justifiable one.
Uhhh, no the law would not be on my side if I used lethal force to stop a person. I would be immediately arrested because they are under my care. I would be required to disarm the person and do my best not to harm them while I waited for help to come. If they are under my care, I can not harm them legally. Throwing a punch would cause loss of license and jail time.
I don't think the law says you have to allow somebody to harm you without defending yourself. If your patient is trying to stab you with a needle and you have to forcibly stop them you won't lose your license because the violent patient trying to hurt you got bruised during the altercation. I have family that are nurses and special ed teachers and they don't have to passively endure abuse and harm from the people in their care.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/09/20 21:47:57
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Dreadwinter wrote: Also, I already work in a job that is more dangerous than that of a cop. I am regularly punched, I have had to restrain a person attempting to stab me with a needle, I have been sexually assaulted, I have had a patient threaten to throw me out of a third story window, and I have been kicked in the face by a patient. Guess what, didn't shoot them.
Man, Black Friday gets worse and worse!
Seriously, what profession?
Nursing.
Prestor Jon wrote:If one of your patients became agitated and had a knife or other lethal weapon and you tried to subdue that patient you would be in a life or death situation in which you may have to use lethal force to save yourself and if you did have to use lethal force the law would be on your side to justify your actions. Same thing here, agitated person who was armed with a lethal weapon and when the situation reached a point wherein the officer felt a reasonable fear of imminent harm lethal force was used to end the threat. The use of lethal force isn't the only possible outcome for the incident in the OP but it is a justifiable one.
Uhhh, no the law would not be on my side if I used lethal force to stop a person. I would be immediately arrested because they are under my care. I would be required to disarm the person and do my best not to harm them while I waited for help to come. If they are under my care, I can not harm them legally. Throwing a punch would cause loss of license and jail time.
I don't think the law says you have to allow somebody to harm you without defending yourself. If your patient is trying to stab you with a needle and you have to forcibly stop them you won't lose your license because the violent patient trying to hurt you got bruised during the altercation. I have family that are nurses and special ed teachers and they don't have to passively endure abuse and harm from the people in their care.
That is, of course, not what I have said. I can defend myself, I can block what they are doing and disarm them. I cannot, however, strike them or do anything more than is needed to restrain them.
2017/09/21 12:46:08
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Yeah people are going a little ham on the "shoot them if you feel threatened thing."
You could use that to justify 9/11 - the Taliban and Al Quaeda felt threatened by America, so they "shot them".
It is a very dangerous line of thinking from the right that you can shoot when you "feel threatened" just like it's a very dangerous line of thinking from the left that you can silence someone when you "feel offended".
2017/09/21 15:25:49
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah people are going a little ham on the "shoot them if you feel threatened thing."
You could use that to justify 9/11 - the Taliban and Al Quaeda felt threatened by America, so they "shot them".
It is a very dangerous line of thinking from the right that you can shoot when you "feel threatened" just like it's a very dangerous line of thinking from the left that you can silence someone when you "feel offended".
To be fair a person wielding a knife advancing on you aggressively isnt a "feeling" it just is threatening and can easily be life threatening.
different to say feeling threatened when some one reaches slowly into a back pocket and then blasting them
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah people are going a little ham on the "shoot them if you feel threatened thing."
You could use that to justify 9/11 - the Taliban and Al Quaeda felt threatened by America, so they "shot them".
It is a very dangerous line of thinking from the right that you can shoot when you "feel threatened" just like it's a very dangerous line of thinking from the left that you can silence someone when you "feel offended".
To be fair a person wielding a knife advancing on you aggressively isnt a "feeling" it just is threatening and can easily be life threatening.
different to say feeling threatened when some one reaches slowly into a back pocket and then blasting them
Yes, I agree with this. That's why I don't hold the officer at fault at all in this specific case (as hopefully you can tell from my other posts).
2017/09/21 16:12:09
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
NenkotaMoon wrote: They should have sent a dog, no one cares if the dog gets stabbed.
I care, as do many if the dog gets stabbed. Are you in the habit of unnecessarily sacrificing animals? Im no PETA fan, but I damn sure wouldn't voluntarily send my German Shepard towards someone with a knife.
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2017/09/22 05:20:58
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
NenkotaMoon wrote: They should have sent a dog, no one cares if the dog gets stabbed.
I care, as do many if the dog gets stabbed.
Police dogs with attack training usually go for your weapon arm. They also react much faster than a human and when you're hit by a large dog moving at dog speed you will often get dragged off your feet. Perfect spot for the handler to move in and disarm you. Yes, it's sad if the dog gets hurt but you send it when you want to try taking someone alive - stopping a knife man without risking a cop, or stopping a running perp you don't want to shoot, for example. So the dog is actually a tool to save a life.
But wishing campus cops had dogs is just more 20-20 hindsight in this case, ofc. They used the tools they had in a very restrained manner IMO.
2017/09/22 05:42:46
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
NenkotaMoon wrote: They should have sent a dog, no one cares if the dog gets stabbed.
I care, as do many if the dog gets stabbed.
Police dogs with attack training usually go for your weapon arm. They also react much faster than a human and when you're hit by a large dog moving at dog speed you will often get dragged off your feet. Perfect spot for the handler to move in and disarm you. Yes, it's sad if the dog gets hurt but you send it when you want to try taking someone alive - stopping a knife man without risking a cop, or stopping a running perp you don't want to shoot, for example. So the dog is actually a tool to save a life.
But wishing campus cops had dogs is just more 20-20 hindsight in this case, ofc. They used the tools they had in a very restrained manner IMO.
Aren't the dogs also cops?
you could also make the case if there were no cops on campus, the kid would still be alive as there would have been no cop to assist him in his suicide.
2017/09/22 06:49:53
Subject: Re:Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Police dogs require a great deal of special training and handling - we might want to restrict our monday morning quarterbacking to the resources it's fair to expect small departments to field and maintain.
Spetulhu wrote: But wishing campus cops had dogs is just more 20-20 hindsight in this case, ofc.
I missed this comment initially, oops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/22 06:51:12
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2017/09/22 14:17:45
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
NenkotaMoon wrote: They should have sent a dog, no one cares if the dog gets stabbed.
I care, as do many if the dog gets stabbed.
Police dogs with attack training usually go for your weapon arm. They also react much faster than a human and when you're hit by a large dog moving at dog speed you will often get dragged off your feet. Perfect spot for the handler to move in and disarm you. Yes, it's sad if the dog gets hurt but you send it when you want to try taking someone alive - stopping a knife man without risking a cop, or stopping a running perp you don't want to shoot, for example. So the dog is actually a tool to save a life.
But wishing campus cops had dogs is just more 20-20 hindsight in this case, ofc. They used the tools they had in a very restrained manner IMO.
now you want college cops to have attack dogs? Mussolini would be proud.
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2017/09/22 14:26:17
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Frazzled wrote: now you want college cops to have attack dogs?
I will be honest, as a dirty stink'n foreigner I wonder what is the purpose of campus police in the first place. We don't have them over here.
It's a solution to a weird problem we have over here. Campuses are often massive sprawling things that require at least some security, for vandals if nothing else. The problem is that since the campuses are 'public' (ie: run by the government), anyone they employ in the role is technically a federal or state police officer. This creates a weird situation that campus security officers have police powers, by the law.
Interestingly the New York Metro has the same problem. Metro officers have an array of powers that are reserved for state police officers.
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A college is basically one big ass town or section of a city. They aren't impervious to crimes. Hell when I was in College Park taking ROTC, there seemed to be a robbery every other week and had cops on standby.
Feed the poor war gamer with money.
2017/09/22 16:13:29
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
NenkotaMoon wrote: A college is basically one big ass town or section of a city. They aren't impervious to crimes. Hell when I was in College Park taking ROTC, there seemed to be a robbery every other week and had cops on standby.
Yeah. There is a reason the term "College Town" exists. Quite literally.
There are many full blown cities which grew up around College campuses, which often take up more than half the town's space and population. And if you have 10k+ people in their early to mid twenties packed into one area, there's gonna be trouble. Hence the need for a police force.
The place where I went to college, the College population was full half the population of the city. Christmas and summer breaks really reflected that. You went downtown during the school year, it was hustle and bustle. During the summer and any other breaks? Basically deserted.
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In my humble experience, the worst cops I have ever encountered have been Campus Cops. I think it is a combination of dealing with thousands of punk kids between the ages of 19 and 21, and the fact that they see many of those kids as "out of towners" that they can do anything they want to.
For instance, at my college, the day before the semester ended, they decided to hand out parking tickets to everyone at my dorm parking, regardless of whether or not the car had the proper permit. Few had time to fight the ticket and just paid. Those of us that did fight, were required to have an in-person meeting, which most couldn't attend because we would have been out of town.
My roommate drove a restored 1960's pickup. The same officer ticketed him 4 times in 3 months for "no seatbelt" because he only had a lap belt (no shoulder restraint). He said lap-only belts don't meet the standard for obeying the law.
I personally got pulled over multiple times by the same officer for "driving a suspicious vehicle". Apparently a 12-year old Pontiac driving the speed limit is suspicious.
Then there were officers that liked to do "Stop and Frisk" on just random people going to class, despite that actually being illegal.
2017/09/22 16:17:40
Subject: Knife-wielding campus pride leader killed by police at Georgia Tech
NenkotaMoon wrote: A college is basically one big ass town or section of a city.
Grey Templar wrote: And if you have 10k+ people in their early to mid twenties packed into one area, there's gonna be trouble. Hence the need for a police force.
The university I work at in Australia is 3 times larger than the one work at in the US and the Australian one doesn't have armed cops. We have several university campuses over here with 20k+ students. Campus police just aren't a thing though.
We have security of course, they're unarmed and just wander around to make sure stuff doesn't get vandalised, make sure buildings are locked at night, make sure there's not people in buildings that they shouldn't be in, escort people to their cars late at night and so on.
No armed coppers though.
ChargerIIC wrote: The problem is that since the campuses are 'public' (ie: run by the government), anyone they employ in the role is technically a federal or state police officer. This creates a weird situation that campus security officers have police powers, by the law.
I guess that kind of makes sense in a weird way, lol.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/22 16:23:23
