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Bharring wrote:
Do you really see Storm Guardians as useful because of their Shuriken Pistols?

Don't Plas-toting Tacs outperform them per point? By a lot?

Still better than tacs equipped with bolt pistol and chainsword if you were to equip them apples to apples.

Load out wise, they are assault marines without jump packs. They have more potential threat the latter.

They die twice as fast as Marines - so less durable per point (worse vs small arms or in cover, better vs S10AP-4 style OMG guns).

ASM sans-jetpacks only real use is to stick into things that are advancing on you. And nobody uses them for that already. Guardians might have better firepower - marginally - but are substantially worse in CC. So, for the one job you *might* want ASM for, ASM do outperform Guardians.

Tac Marines are nearly as good at CC as Storm Guardians stock (reroll 1s with 2 attacks vs S/T 4 in CC), but outshoot Storm Guardians and outsurvive them.

I think its quite funny, that a fully decked Centurion Dev with lascannons and missile launcher is more expensive than a dreadnought with similar gear.

So almost all SM stuff should drop in points and i'd like to see some better and fluffy stratagems. What i don't want are a few autotakes that easily win tournaments. But *insert some other imperium unit* is doing the job better than the SM Unit is simply sad.

So for some numbers:

Vs T3 5+
Storm Guardians:
1x(7/9)(1/2)(2/3)
ASM:
2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)

Maths down to 7:16 Guardians:ASM, at 7ppm:13ppm.

Vs T4 3+
Storm Guardians:
1x(7/9)(1/3)(1/3)
ASM:
2x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)

Mtahs down to 7:18 Guardians:ASM

So, for output, ASM do quite a bit more per point.

Survivability:
vs S3AP0, no cover:
SG: (1/2)(2/3) = 1/3 hits kill
ASM: (1/3)(1/3) = 1/9 hits kill

A 1:3 ratio against SG

vs S4AP0, no cover:
SG: (2/3)(2/3) = 4/9 hits kill
ASM: (1/2)(1/3) = 1/6

Marines win by another wide margin

vs S4AP-1, no cover:
SG: (2/3)(5/6) = 10/18
ASM: (1/2)(1/2) = 1/4

Still blow ASM away.

vs S3AP0, cover:
SG: (1/2)(1/2) = 1/4
ASM: (1/3)(1/6) = 1/18

More ouch, the ASM actually win that one too!

So you get to kill another Marine maybe with your pistols before the Storm Guardians charge in. THen they get destroyed by things the ASM would take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Xeno,
I agree that Marines should be more mobile and strike faster than Guard.

Marines should be *less* mobile than CWE.
They should be *slower* than DE.

Quit comparing them to other troops.

ASM are FA not troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The WWP/Droppod change:
WWP can take Guardian squads. That's the only squad above 10 that it can take.

I could see the pod dropping a *lot* of points if it's survivability went down quite a bit. Something like being T5 with the doors off, and not many HP (because all you need to do is knock out the gun). But it's a model, and should be a unit instead of a stratagem.

On the moving and shooting change:
If other factions more known for moving and shooting and/or target assistance still have the move-and-shoot penalty, Marines shouldn't lose it. Retuning the vehicles might be appropriate, but it should be done in other ways.

Grav Cannons:
20pts don't seem bad.

Nullzone:
It shouldn't both be easy to cast *and* be targettable. It should only get one. It's a very nasty piece of work.

Bharring wrote:
ASM are FA not troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The WWP/Droppod change:
WWP can take Guardian squads. That's the only squad above 10 that it can take.

I could see the pod dropping a *lot* of points if it's survivability went down quite a bit. Something like being T5 with the doors off, and not many HP (because all you need to do is knock out the gun). But it's a model, and should be a unit instead of a stratagem.

On the moving and shooting change:
If other factions more known for moving and shooting and/or target assistance still have the move-and-shoot penalty, Marines shouldn't lose it. Retuning the vehicles might be appropriate, but it should be done in other ways.

Grav Cannons:
20pts don't seem bad.

Nullzone:
It shouldn't both be easy to cast *and* be targettable. It should only get one. It's a very nasty piece of work.

Jinx - which is actually 2 spells - is 18 inch range and targetable - you can also cast it again as protect and buff another unit. Nullzone needs to be at least that good - because it is supposed to be the super ability in librarius. Compared to things like - infernal gateway and vortex of doom - executioner - it is actually quite tame even with my proposed buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There would never be a situation where storm gardians aren't getting the jump on tactical marines. Marines are slow and have no ability to deep strike that doesn't cost 80 points where as 20 SG can drop and assault 10 marines of comparable price - they would wreck those marines.

Another thing - the have stratagem support. Plus why are we talking about storm gardians - they are terrible. I use 20 man defender units and crush meq with them. Then when they try to kill them I hit them with a 4++ save and I have 6+ FNP - If I'm lucky they are a 3++ save because I hit them with protect. Is there any way i can buff marines weakness (damage output/ defense) in a meaningful way? NOT REALLY. I'm not taking defenders to be cute ether - they are a lynchpin in my eldar army - 40 start in reserve every game for me. Gardians are great at taking out the trash. What can marines do? other than do less damage than they cost and then just die?

Eldar troops aren't good either, but they don't need to be. That's the difference.

The direct point being discussed was the claim that Tacs are worse than Storm Guardians. Most don't agree with that, but some were still arguing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jinx affects one units, not all units within 6" of the target. And certainly doesn't affect psyker powers. And isn't a 6 to cast.

Storm guardians are better at claiming real estate, which is the primary job of troops in many lists. Neither tac marines nor storm guardians do much offensively, although tac marines ARE better than intercessors offensively. Storm guardians also generate more CP per model because they are cheaper.

So which one is better really depends on what you are looking for out of troops. They're both bad. The real difference is storm guardians are backed up by wave serpents and dark reapers and tacs are backed up by more tacs that are equipped slightly differently and terrible tanks.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar troops aren't good either, but they don't need to be. That's the difference.

Dire Avengers are pretty cool but Guardians need to be better without the reliance on Strategems.

Dire avengers look cool until you realize how fast they get misted by mortars and wyvern strikes. Even in cover.

1. I'm inclined to agree here the land raider is a pretty sizable model, I don't think the operator cares whats in front of him(or behind him)

2. It needs an Invuln save, be it 5 or 4. 6+ saves are basically worthless you can't plan for them

3. 50pt rhinos sure lets try it, if its that bad there's the September FAQ

4. Frankly I think the fact that the entire purpose of the drop pod in previous editions was guaranteed delivery of the unit. Guaranteed delivery is now game wide, so this unit is in an awkward position. Again, let's try it in beta rules and see what happens before it goes into the FAQ or CA

5. I will never complain about the idea of pt decreases, but there needs to be a choice between scouts and Tacs. I think if Marines had 2 wounds then Primaris had either 3 or reduced the damage of attacks by 1 they would be in a better position against small arms fire or multi would guns ie plasma. I'm not sure what it would be like mechanically. T6 Gravis would serve its purpose of having tougher marines but theres is a lot of S6-7 high rate of fire weapons out there that makes being bumped to T5 pointless. But I'm all for T6 Gravis units for the fact alone that I would have infantry tougher than my DE friends vehicles

6. Fly keyword comes with significantly more advantages than disadvantages, which I believe is only +1 to hit with anti air weapons.

7. I would say ignores penalties if it moves under half its move, assuming that it does not get the ability to shoot twice

8. Land speeders are pretty expensive for what they are, the -1 to hit, I could see this as a 1CP stratagem instead (We could use a more low cost stratagems that actually do something)

9. I think dreads should have something extra of some sort, maybe 2+ for all of them then 5++, I'm not really sure but I know the Ven-dreads 6+++ is moot

11. Oh boy, adding in about 3-4 good stratagems and removing the trash ones would remove more than 3-4 haha

13. I think centurions are just a write off

15. I don't care, anything at all would be a buff, Physic fortress is great, we need more like this

I chatted again with my friend after we did a 4 player FFA (worst idea ever), Tau crisis commanders are 72 before guns. Even he thinks its a bit much that his commanders are cheaper than Captains. I understand the potential for the Cpt being more because of its constant buff could potentially affect multiple units to increase their performance. I don't have an argument for this it just bugs me because I can't see a breakdown because there is no breakdown because its just by "feeling" as opposed to a formula.

Also marines as a whole, across the board need an extra attack to make up for the one we lost from the charge in 7th where there was incentive to charge, now the only incentive is going first, which for the most part is lack luster for more than just marines, I'd argue that Eldar could use the extra attack as well. now I have no idea how this would trickle thorugh other armies seeing as how apparently BA have it pretty good in melee

He also didn't realize marines have essentially no rules. ATSKNF I have gotten no use out of it and putting actual thought into it, it would be worthwhile as being "roll 2 take the lowest" seeing as how you could potentially reroll and get something worse (the only reason I was thinking of this was DE codex has a fair amount of Ld debuffs now). Then there's combat squads lmao, knowing GW they priced this into the cost off marines

Martel732 wrote:
Dire avengers look cool until you realize how fast they get misted by mortars and wyvern strikes. Even in cover.

That's more an issue with Mortars and Wyverns. Dire Avengers are pretty cool otherwise.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
ASM are FA not troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The WWP/Droppod change:
WWP can take Guardian squads. That's the only squad above 10 that it can take.

I could see the pod dropping a *lot* of points if it's survivability went down quite a bit. Something like being T5 with the doors off, and not many HP (because all you need to do is knock out the gun). But it's a model, and should be a unit instead of a stratagem.

On the moving and shooting change:
If other factions more known for moving and shooting and/or target assistance still have the move-and-shoot penalty, Marines shouldn't lose it. Retuning the vehicles might be appropriate, but it should be done in other ways.

Grav Cannons:
20pts don't seem bad.

Nullzone:
It shouldn't both be easy to cast *and* be targettable. It should only get one. It's a very nasty piece of work.

Jinx - which is actually 2 spells - is 18 inch range and targetable - you can also cast it again as protect and buff another unit. Nullzone needs to be at least that good - because it is supposed to be the super ability in librarius. Compared to things like - infernal gateway and vortex of doom - executioner - it is actually quite tame even with my proposed buffs.

So, Jinx is a WC7 cast and modifies all saves by -1. Cast on a single target of your choice.
Null Zone is a 6” aura that removes all invuln saves and is cast on an 8.

They are both very different powers. Sure, you can argue that -1 saves is better against more units, but Null Zone counters more of the “bigger” threats.

It’s also worth noting that, in order to cast both Protect and Jinx, you need 2 psykers and need to pass 2 WC7 attempts – sure, it’s cheap enough to run 2 Eldar psykers, but it is still essentially 2 50/50 casts.

I think the biggest shortfall of Null Zone is the 6” range. If it were a 12” range it would probably be way too powerful, but, I’d probably aim for something like 9-10” range. Suddenly it actually starts affecting enough things for its cost and risk of use (needing to be so close with your libby etc).

Currently there are only a couple of viable methods of getting Null Zone where you want it, in the turns that it will make a difference. Raven Guard stratagem with a jump pack libby, or a jump pack libby inside a stormraven. Beyond that you’re either counting on a 9” charge, or building a castle and hoping something with an invuln save decides to charge in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dire avengers look cool until you realize how fast they get misted by mortars and wyvern strikes. Even in cover.

That's more an issue with Mortars and Wyverns. Dire Avengers are pretty cool otherwise.

Issue or not, Eldar players have largely quit committing their troops until the smoke clears in my play group. They usually shoot for low scoring maelstrom and deny IG their points. Indeed, I've seen IG players score (rarely) zero maelstrom vs Eldar.

Storm Guardians produce *fewer* CP per model. You can take 5-man Tac squads. Slightly more CP per point, though - 56pts min vs 65 pts min. But Scouts do that slightly better than Storm Guardians.

Storm Guardians are better at claiming realestate until fired upon. Tacs retain realestate better under fire. So Storm Guardians are better as a screen. Not a good screen, though. Once again, Scouts do the screen a lot better than either.

Bharring wrote:
Storm Guardians produce *fewer* CP per model. You can take 5-man Tac squads. Slightly more CP per point, though - 56pts min vs 65 pts min. But Scouts do that slightly better than Storm Guardians.

Storm Guardians are better at claiming realestate until fired upon. Tacs retain realestate better under fire. So Storm Guardians are better as a screen. Not a good screen, though. Once again, Scouts do the screen a lot better than either.

They're both trash, and one is backed up by dark reapers and wave serpents. The other is backed up by ???. Yeah... LVO was not an accident. Eldar at the final table had a combined record of 23-0-1. This isn't really up for debate.

Falcon and Devilfish chasis, in theory, pay for the Fly keyword. The point wasn't points efficiency, it was (1) Marine vehicles being more agile and stable than CWE vehicles is just plain wrong from both a thematic and fluff perspective and (2) very few factions get to ignore move-and-shoot penalties, so it'd take more than "I'd like to have it" to give it to a faction with no particular stake it in. Not sure Russes should have it. I wouldn't mind most factions getting some limited form of it, though.

For points efficiency, Fly and speed should factor in. As-is, most CWE generic heavy weapons are 36", most IoM generic heavy weapons are 48" - which factors into it. A dakka pred can engage from 36", but a dakka Serpent needs to be within 24". A LasPred can engage from 48", but a BL Falcon only has 36" range.

One of the issues is the Pred being a MBT on the same frame as the Rhino. If the Pred is a MBT, it should be at least as tough as the Falcon or Hammerhead. But if the Rhino can't simultaneously be cheap enough to do it's job well and as sturdy as a MBT (Falcon/Pred/Hammerhead) without being unbalanced. So that gets difficult to "get right". Do we make Preds more durable than Rhinos, do we downgrade Preds from MBT, or do we keep Rhinos too expensive?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel,
Nobody is claiming Eldar aren't OP right now. The claim that that part of the thread was talking about was the claim that Storm Guardians were better than Tacs - something I think you agree is inaccurate.

If your point is still that Tacs shouldn't be compared to Troops because the statline has to perform all roles, I'd point out that the Aspect Warrior statline is the backbone of CWE right now - which is strictly inferior to Marines (1 less S/T). So the statline alone can't be the problem.

Marines only get statlines. They lack the special rules and wargear of aspect warriors. If marine devs with missile lauchers had the same special rules as dark reapers, they would be instantly useful.

Admittedly eldar are propped up largely by a few units. They don't have a whole codex of cheap effective units like ig. And altioc. They are propped up by altioc big time.

But the fact that tacs are my cqc units and my long range support units is killing marines, because tacs do none of these jobs well.

Devs:
-Signum (Sarge)
-Cheribum

Dark Reapers:
-Crack Shot (Sarge)
-Inescapable Accuracy

So they both have different special rules. Inescapable Accuracy is one really good rule, but they both have two rules.

It's not the special rules on Reapers that make them better. They're undercosted a bit - that's what makes Reapers themselves OP. And the support they can get - better interceptor and Ynnari - make it even worse.

Raven Guard do for Devs what Alaitoc does for Reapers. But Alaitoc/RG/etc being common makes Inescapable Accuracy worth even more.

In theory, Tac Marines at 12" from Reapers and getting the alpha shoud win that firefight. Also, in theory, if equal or even quite a bit fewer points of Marines charge equal points of Reapers, the Marines should win. Also, in theory, Reapers and Marines in equal points starting across the board from eachother in a head-to-head should mean Reapers win.

Repeat that paragraph replacing "Reapers" with "Devs".

Repeat both paragraphs replacing "Tac Marines" with "Dire Avengers".

All of that should be true. Most of it is. The two exceptions I can think of are Reapers beat the Marines at close range, and Dire Avengers lose to Devs at CQC. The first is a blowout in the wrong direction. The second is rare, and thematic, and proper.

Kdash wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
ASM are FA not troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The WWP/Droppod change:
WWP can take Guardian squads. That's the only squad above 10 that it can take.

I could see the pod dropping a *lot* of points if it's survivability went down quite a bit. Something like being T5 with the doors off, and not many HP (because all you need to do is knock out the gun). But it's a model, and should be a unit instead of a stratagem.

On the moving and shooting change:
If other factions more known for moving and shooting and/or target assistance still have the move-and-shoot penalty, Marines shouldn't lose it. Retuning the vehicles might be appropriate, but it should be done in other ways.

Grav Cannons:
20pts don't seem bad.

Nullzone:
It shouldn't both be easy to cast *and* be targettable. It should only get one. It's a very nasty piece of work.

Jinx - which is actually 2 spells - is 18 inch range and targetable - you can also cast it again as protect and buff another unit. Nullzone needs to be at least that good - because it is supposed to be the super ability in librarius. Compared to things like - infernal gateway and vortex of doom - executioner - it is actually quite tame even with my proposed buffs.

So, Jinx is a WC7 cast and modifies all saves by -1. Cast on a single target of your choice.
Null Zone is a 6” aura that removes all invuln saves and is cast on an 8.

They are both very different powers. Sure, you can argue that -1 saves is better against more units, but Null Zone counters more of the “bigger” threats.

It’s also worth noting that, in order to cast both Protect and Jinx, you need 2 psykers and need to pass 2 WC7 attempts – sure, it’s cheap enough to run 2 Eldar psykers, but it is still essentially 2 50/50 casts.

I think the biggest shortfall of Null Zone is the 6” range. If it were a 12” range it would probably be way too powerful, but, I’d probably aim for something like 9-10” range. Suddenly it actually starts affecting enough things for its cost and risk of use (needing to be so close with your libby etc).

Currently there are only a couple of viable methods of getting Null Zone where you want it, in the turns that it will make a difference. Raven Guard stratagem with a jump pack libby, or a jump pack libby inside a stormraven. Beyond that you’re either counting on a 9” charge, or building a castle and hoping something with an invuln save decides to charge in.

Null zone is terrible. It has a lot of potential but it's always going to have a chance to be denied at that range and requires suicide. Jinx can be cast out of range of a psyker denial (happens all the time). Plus reduces all saves. Costs 7-instead of 8. It needs to be buffed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Devs:
-Signum (Sarge)
-Cheribum

Dark Reapers:
-Crack Shot (Sarge)
-Inescapable Accuracy

So they both have different special rules. Inescapable Accuracy is one really good rule, but they both have two rules.

It's not the special rules on Reapers that make them better. They're undercosted a bit - that's what makes Reapers themselves OP. And the support they can get - better interceptor and Ynnari - make it even worse.

Raven Guard do for Devs what Alaitoc does for Reapers. But Alaitoc/RG/etc being common makes Inescapable Accuracy worth even more.

In theory, Tac Marines at 12" from Reapers and getting the alpha shoud win that firefight. Also, in theory, if equal or even quite a bit fewer points of Marines charge equal points of Reapers, the Marines should win. Also, in theory, Reapers and Marines in equal points starting across the board from eachother in a head-to-head should mean Reapers win.

Repeat that paragraph replacing "Reapers" with "Devs".

Repeat both paragraphs replacing "Tac Marines" with "Dire Avengers".

All of that should be true. Most of it is. The two exceptions I can think of are Reapers beat the Marines at close range, and Dire Avengers lose to Devs at CQC. The first is a blowout in the wrong direction. The second is rare, and thematic, and proper.

Cherb is a 1 time use item you have to pay for. It's basically a hunter killer missle that the squad can take. It is nice - but it's not even in the same ball game as inescapable accuracy. Ignoring stacked -1 to hit buffs while being able to move and shoot with no penalty as well improves reapers performance so much they could see a 10 point increase and still be the best unit of it's type in the game. We wont even get into the fact that their weapons are good at killing any kind of unit in the game that isn't 3 point chaff.

When you play against Jinx, remember that if they're casting outside Denial range, they *don't* have Character protection. So they're 30ppm t3. Can't be in a transport. Your surviving chaff can shoot them, and should be in range if they got within 36" of your uber unit.

Also, it's CP spent to increase range, and a good chance of using CP for a reroll. Plus a reasonable chance per attempt to fry a warlock (average Perils kills a guy for them).

I wouldn't mind seeing it buffed, but the original post put it at "Jinx but better, by a lot" territory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno - my point was that Devs *did* have special rules - it's just that Reaper's special rules are better. It was in direct response to the claim that xenos squads had tons of special rules and Devs had none.

I honesty dudn't even think about them because they are so weak.

the 18 inch range is usually enough for jinx in my experience to not get denied. Librarians aren't usually at the front of the army and plus the SS usually starts in a serpent so it has a solid 12-13 move (or more if it has falcos wing) to get into position.

It's totally fine for it to be jinx but better also because jinx is 2 fething spells. In my proposed change jinx still counters nullzone heavily. You can protect the target being nullzoned before he casts it - and it will literally cancel the effect - and you can also use the same spell to debuff a space marine unit.

Give it a 12" range instead of 18" (so it almost always has a chance to be denied) and it's totally reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rules - gear - makes no difference - points cost is all I am concerned about. Space marine devs probably need to reduce in points between 2-3 points base and also a lot of weapons need points drops.

Rockets should be 20 (-5)
Grav cannons should be 20 (-8)
LC can remain 25
PC is good where it's at
HB is good where it's at

A reaper needs to go up about 8-10 points.

Deny the Witch is a 24" range - so your librarian would be at least 6" behind the unit getting jinxed, despite being untargetable being right behind it?

The extended range stratagem only affects the Conclave, not the Spirit Seer or even the solo Warlock.

You can only use "the same spell" if you don't instead use a different spell - the second cast isn't free in that sense. The 'Can cast both' is nice, but you're overselling it - multiple SM can cast Null Zone and other powers the same way CWE can cast Protect + Jinx same turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That point cost change would put ML Devs at 33, and Reapers at 38.

Just a little too far, but in the right direction, I think.

Bharring wrote:

Xeno - my point was that Devs *did* have special rules - it's just that Reaper's special rules are better. It was in direct response to the claim that xenos squads had tons of special rules and Devs had none.

See your point is more or less a technicality. To compare the Signum to always hitting on 3s is unfair. So right away to get the bonus the Sargent has to forfeit his shooting, it only affects one model which is the big difference, but on the other side if the Dev squad stayed sill the one guy hits on 2s instaed. So now I'm shooting against a -2 to hit unit, my buffed model hits on 4s and the rest of the squad hits on 5s

So yes as a marine players when it comes to rules beggers can't be choosers, but to compare dark reapers to a Dev squad is unfair in everyway.

My point is that continuing to argue "But xenos have more special rules" sends us off in the wrong direction.

On the other hand, Signum makes one Plasma Cannon really, really good. SO there are upsides. I'd put that on par with one guy in the unit rerolls 1s to hit.

The 'always hits on 3s' *is* worth more points than it currently costs. That doesn't mean Devs are strictly weaker in every way. They can take Gravs or HBs if they dont want Missile Launchers. They can take ablaitive wounds for less than half the cost (counterpoint - they can't have more than 4 heavy weapons). They're T4, and it takes a beefier skirmisher to beat them in CC. They can reroll LD.

Reapers are better overall, and by quite a bit, but Devs certainly outperform Reapers in some ways.

Largely irrelevant ways, but sure.

Bharring wrote:
Deny the Witch is a 24" range - so your librarian would be at least 6" behind the unit getting jinxed, despite being untargetable being right behind it?

The extended range stratagem only affects the Conclave, not the Spirit Seer or even the solo Warlock.

You can only use "the same spell" if you don't instead use a different spell - the second cast isn't free in that sense. The 'Can cast both' is nice, but you're overselling it - multiple SM can cast Null Zone and other powers the same way CWE can cast Protect + Jinx same turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That point cost change would put ML Devs at 33, and Reapers at 38.

Just a little too far, but in the right direction, I think.

I don't think I am overselling the 1 spell being 2 spells. That has to be worth something. Also space marines aren't as potent psychically as eldar or Tzeentch - so I am okay with their spells being good. Space marine librarians need to have a few powers on their level though - currently librarius is the worth tree in the game. I actaully would prefer using the primaris psyker discipline currently.