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So with the big March FAQ coming we are bound to see points changes and maybe some rules changes too.

Outside of Guilliman Codex SM is bad so lets see if we can fix things nice and easily without any crazy rules changes because I don't think we'll be getting them.

The only rule that needs to change is Chapter Tactics since other armies have their equivalent affect all of their units with Marines stuck with a bizarre limitation.

Below is a rough idea of the sort of points changes I think we are looking at.


Chapter Tactics: Apply to all units


Points Changes


Troops

Tactical Squad: -3ppm


Elites


Aggressors: -2ppm
Dreadnought: -15
Ironclad Dreadnought: -10
Sternguard : -1ppm
Terminators: -7ppm
Terminator Assault: -5ppm
Vanguard: -2ppm


Fast Attack

Assault Squad: -3ppm
Attack Bikes : --7ppm
Bikes : -1ppm
Land Speeder: -10ppm
Scout Bikes : -4ppm

Heavy Support


Centurions: -20ppm
Devastators: -3ppm
Land Raider (all variants): -20
Predator: -12
Thunderfire Cannon: -30
Vindicator: -30
Whirlwind: -30

Transports

Drop Pod: -40
Land Speeder Storm: -10


Lord of War:

Guilliman: +65



Wargear


Camo Cloak: -1
Sniper Rifle: -2
Missile Launcher: -4
Cyclone Missile Launcher: -15
Flamer: -3
Combi-Flamer: -3
Meltagun: -4
Combi-Melta: -4
Grav-gun: -3
Combi-Grav: -3

Most of the point changes don't really seem necessary. My Marine list uses Raven Guard and Lias Issodon, and has won many more games than it's lost, you can make competitive lists without Robby G. Likewise, I've been on the receiving end of particular units such as Aggressors and Predators, they don't need any changes at all.

Dreadnoughts are fine with just chapter tactics added and the tank changes might require testing (they sound like they might be fine but Vindicator/Whirlwind might just be too efficient) but otherwise things seem reasonable.

Dreads already have Chapter Tactics.

Okay. Point drops are nice, I'll never say no to them but I'd prefer rules. Such as drop pods simply treating their weapon as "pistol" so it can't get locked up (or at least pose a threat to anything hoping to just squat by it). Or even just giving Dreads power of the machine Spirit, they had relentless in 7th and Dreadnoughts don't really fire enough shots to move and shoot, except the Redemptor with Gatling cannons.

The Whirlwind is decent, could use an ap increase on both launchers or simply ignores covers. Basically full fills the same purpose but doesn't make them too good against vehicles.

I agree Land raider should be significantly cheaper, if the repulser loaded up with a similar weapons (Twin LC and Las-talon) plus loads more can be cheaper.

I can't really make an opinion about some of these units as I haven't used them, but I take it these are all arbitrary values

I don't think Gulliman needs a massive points adjustment, he's good yes, but with lst CA points adjustment apparently moved him below auto pick good.

Not the biggest fan of point drops for marines. We already don't feel elite. Tac squads could come down but outside of that what I would like:

New strats, PoTMS for dreads and preds, more shots for WWs, more weapon options for termies, no -1 to hit for termies with power fists, +1 attack for termies, new BT tactic along with reduced neophite cost or all the stuff I listed here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747037.page

bananathug wrote:
Not the biggest fan of point drops for marines. We already don't feel elite. Tac squads could come down but outside of that what I would like:

New strats, PoTMS for dreads and preds, more shots for WWs, more weapon options for termies, no -1 to hit for termies with power fists, +1 attack for termies, new BT tactic along with reduced neophite cost or all the stuff I listed here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747037.page

Yeah... That'd take Space Marines from "okay" to god-tier.

I think there's going to be a lot of disappointed people at the end of March.

yeah, I'm not expecting anything other than a couple swings of the nerf bat to seriously over-performing units (ynarri reapers) some changes to help sell more models (no idea what's not selling but they will get a price decrease, maybe reivers?) and something pants-on-head strange that breaks the meta (oblits go down in cost? increase price for tac squads? Manticores to go down in price while basis go up?)

I don't think those marine changes are unwarranted, if Tau get a modest boost from the index (which seems a given) it will be another army that really hurts marines (high volume of s5 shots, lots of s6 -2 2d shots, massed fire-warriors infantry, good deepstrike). Marines are on their way from mid-tier to GK tier without some major help...

 daedalus wrote:
I think there's going to be a lot of disappointed people at the end of March.

Tend to agree.

I think SM should be ok till the end of the edition. They already had the codex to fix the index and CA to fix the codex. Now, do they need a FAQ to fix CA?? Definitely not, SM are fine as they are.

Many other things should be nerfed or improved instead. Nerfing some specific units and combos, like the dark reapers thing, is actually the real fix SM need.

BrianDavion wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I think there's going to be a lot of disappointed people at the end of March.

Tend to agree.

Seconded.

While I think there will be -some- points adjustments, I do not think there will be anything like this scale. The FAQ is used to address questions, rules quandries and “grey areas”, whilst also addressing any massive unit outliers.

I’d expect/hope for changes to units considered to be massively superior/auto includes in an attempt to bring them back into balance, but, the rest of the changes will show up in the next CA (and maybe codex, if they start committing to updating codices on a regular basis).

As much as I’d like things like Drop Pods to be usable alongside some other units, I think this list of points changes is just massive wish-listing and would need to be substantially backed up with reasons and evidence. You’d also then have to consider things like BA, DA and SW units, because you can’t (really) have different points for the same units across 4 different books just cos “basic marine armies suck”.

 Blackie wrote:
I think SM should be ok till the end of the edition. They already had the codex to fix the index and CA to fix the codex. Now, do they need a FAQ to fix CA?? Definitely not, SM are fine as they are.

Many other things should be nerfed or improved instead. Nerfing some specific units and combos, like the dark reapers thing, is actually the real fix SM need.

The codex didn't fix alot if units and CA hasn't changed anything for normal basic power armour units being not worth taking.

Also space furries don't use tactical squads your units cost the same and grt chainswords so swing 2 attacks in CC to a tactical marines 1.

Also whats the issue with marines and marines +1 paying different points for units with different equipment options. The concept that weapons are free is GW's own undoing here as a giving units access to free weapons and other units the same cost no access to said free upgrade is inherently designing in imbalance.

Ice_can wrote:


Also space furries don't use tactical squads your units cost the same and grt chainswords so swing 2 attacks in CC to a tactical marines 1.

Right, but the best use of GH is bringing min squads with no upgrades or maybe with a plasma gun. Because they are played in same way than tacticals, but we can't spam those 5 man squads with a lascannon like SM do, since lascannons are not allowed for grey hunters.

If I wanted lascannons I'd bring devistators squads, they cost the same and get a +1 to hit for free so still no reason for a tac squad. Tac squads sould be for midfield objectives but scouts do that just aswell for cheaper

I honestly think bolters and flamers having exploding 6's for to wound rolls would be a nice, gentle adjustment to marine infantry that would make rank and file tac squads good enough at something to justify their cost vs position on the force org chart, and is in line with the fluff of bolters firing mini rockets exploding, and would make bolters and combi bolters a bit better at chewing infantry up. Also adding another attack on the profile of every infantry in the codex to make decent close combat units out of mediocre and terrible combat units. Maybe a single point reduction. Radical changes I think are a recipe for accelerated codex creep.

You need CPs though, and also cheap screeners. 3x5 tac marines with a lascannon are not bad for what they do. Not mandatory but still a viable option that worths to be considered. IIRC in this edition there was at least one guy that won a major tournament with a SM list that spammed those kind of 5 man squads with lascannons.

For midfielf objectives you use scouts or land speeders, eventually a 10 man (or 2x5) squad of tac in a rhino. You need screeners for your backline anyway and SM only have two options, tacs and scouts, and I strongly prefer tacs over scouts. SM players should rely on scouts for their infiltrate thing.

-40 point drop pods lol.

 Lance845 wrote:
-40 point drop pods lol.

I know. Still too expensive.

 JNAProductions wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Not the biggest fan of point drops for marines. We already don't feel elite. Tac squads could come down but outside of that what I would like:

New strats, PoTMS for dreads and preds, more shots for WWs, more weapon options for termies, no -1 to hit for termies with power fists, +1 attack for termies, new BT tactic along with reduced neophite cost or all the stuff I listed here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747037.page

Yeah... That'd take Space Marines from "okay" to god-tier.

Space marines aren't "okay" they are one of the worst factions in the game. Only Admech and greyknights might be in worse shape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
drop pods cost is already determined. 1-2 command point does it's job for a number of other troop units in other armies without even a unit # restriction. Paying over 70 points to do that is absolutely absurd.

Drop pods should be a stratagem.

Drop pod assault (one use only)
1-3 command points
For each 1 command point you spend to a max of 3. Any infantry/dreadnaught unit can be placed in drop pod assault and deep strike all up to 3 units on the same turn. Each unit is deployed in a separate drop pod.

The drop pod model it's self fires a storm bolter or deathwind missile launcher and has it's current stat line - if an enemy unit moves within 1" of a drop pod - it is assumed to be deactivated and can no longer fire. It can not hold objectives.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Not the biggest fan of point drops for marines. We already don't feel elite. Tac squads could come down but outside of that what I would like:

New strats, PoTMS for dreads and preds, more shots for WWs, more weapon options for termies, no -1 to hit for termies with power fists, +1 attack for termies, new BT tactic along with reduced neophite cost or all the stuff I listed here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747037.page

Yeah... That'd take Space Marines from "okay" to god-tier.

Space marines aren't "okay" they are one of the worst factions in the game. Only Admech and greyknights might be in worse shape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
drop pods cost is already determined. 1-2 command point does it's job for a number of other troop units in other armies without even a unit # restriction. Paying over 70 points to do that is absolutely absurd.

Drop pods should be a stratagem.

Drop pod assault (one use only)
1-3 command points
For each 1 command point you spend to a max of 3. Any infantry/dreadnaught unit can be placed in drop pod assault and deep strike all up to 3 units on the same turn. Each unit is deployed in a separate drop pod.

The drop pod model it's self fires a storm bolter or deathwind missile launcher and has it's current stat line - if an enemy unit moves within 1" of a drop pod - it is assumed to be deactivated and can no longer fire. It can not hold objectives.

Actually, I found the FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod being the proper one after CA, costing 80pts to carry a Dread. The GW droppod, costing 85pts is still rubbish by comparison.

While all of your proposed point decreases would be very welcome, I do find it strange you think that Tactical Marines will ebd up being 10 PPM vs the Scouts 11 PPM. If anything, I could see them being the same at 11 points per model. Tactical Marines at 10 points seems like that wouldn't be something GW would consider with how hard they have clung to 13 PPM Tacticals for so long.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
While all of your proposed point decreases would be very welcome, I do find it strange you think that Tactical Marines will ebd up being 10 PPM vs the Scouts 11 PPM. If anything, I could see them being the same at 11 points per model. Tactical Marines at 10 points seems like that wouldn't be something GW would consider with how hard they have clung to 13 PPM Tacticals for so long.

I'd certainly make blood claws a bit cheaper. After all they's BS4+ tacticals with no bolters but just pistols and no heavy weapons available. Still 13ppm. The only good thing they have is the max size of 16 dudes per squad, but you need an overcosted transport to carry them all.

Hah. Just about all transports are overcosted.

This looks like a wishlist for 7th ed imperial fists drop list.

Everything after tac marine pt reduction is overkill.

 skchsan wrote:

Everything after tac marine pt reduction is overkill.

The tac marine point drop put them cheaper than scouts...

 skchsan wrote:
This looks like a wishlist for 7th ed imperial fists drop list.

Everything after tac marine pt reduction is overkill.

Yeah, making Terminators cheaper certainly is overkill. Centurions likewise.

Anyone see the leaked Necron strats...

My god we got hosed by being the first dex out the door and I'm not sure if it is within reason to expect GW to fix it.

The templar tactic is so terrible on vehicles that they can't just "tactics apply to vehicles" fix it so there would need to be an entire re-work of the tactics.

Our strats are the worst in the game for what is supposedly a highly advanced tactical army lead by the greatest general in the galaxy. I'm not sure if this will get fixed and if it doesn't I'm not sure what they can do outside of over-buff our units (or drop op primarchs on us) in order to make us competitive with these super tactical armies.

- point cost on everything, ok yeah sure