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If the basic Marine was changed to 10 points a week later the same people would complain just as much as now.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Daedalus81 wrote: You might be able to see how you just won't be able to put in enough shots to affect Sisters like you can affect Marines or GEQ for that matter.
Against bolters - the Iron Hands chapter tactic will put the marines ahead of the sisters. Standing in cover will put them ahead of the guard.
So do both, less models mean it's easier to find cover. It's the big guns that favour the weaker units, not the small ones (aside from poison).
jcd386 wrote: Even with a points reduction, 8th edition changes have crippled the classic marine play style without giving it anything (or not much) new to make up for it.
These changes include:
1. Rhinos no longer have fire points
2. Units no longer get +1 attack on the charge
3. AP changes modifying saves (this hurts good saves way more than bad ones)
4. Close combat locking up vehicles
5. ATSKNF changes
6. The new S and T to wound tables.
7. Bolters having no AP 8. Vehicles getting lots of wounds.
9. Changes to vehicle cover rules
They gained split fire, which is huge for Tacs.
SM in general gained excellent reroll opportunities. Lieutenants being a specific addition to supprt that.
The problem is that tac marines have lost more than they gained.
Split fire would be huge if they weren't paying silly costs for heavy weapons.
Also the aura re-rolls hobbles them into castleing in a corner and hoping they don't get tabled its a terrible army design to play.
While I think his suggestions would turn marines into the next OP army, and some of the suggestion are actually worse than the rules as they stand.
Captains have a move characteristic. They shouldn't be just standing in a corner.
Insectum7 wrote: 13 is fine, they could be 12. They should not have two wounds even at a points increase. That would skew their relationship to too many other staple units, like Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, etc. If you wan't uber marines, play primaris. That's what they're for.
Wait, what's wrong with giving marines +1 W? I think Primaris have the stats that all marines should have. And what does their relationship with "staple" units matter at all? If anything, marines look flabby next to other "staple" units.
And as for playing Primaris, well, they don't get the same gun options, or transports options so it's not the same.
Because why should marines all of a sudden just be twice as durable in proportion to the other races? There's nearly 30 years of 1 wound consistency here.
Play primaris then.
That would be great if it wasn't for the fact that anything with a heavy weapon just took a -1 to hit and just for the double screw you now have a miss you can't re-roll
Also even say you manage to build and army which has no heavy weapons in it and that moving isn't an issue. If you need to hold and objective on multiple locations that are more than 12 inch apart well that's atleast one unit who just became combat ineffective, or atleast pretty ignorable as their damage output just dropped like a stone.
Marines pay 25points for a lascannon at BS3+
Guard pay 20 points at BS4+
Thats 20% less or a 25% premium for an additional 17% chance to hit? Please tell what I'm missing here as that doesn't work
A: Don't move with the heavy as the rest of the squad moves. That's usually easy enough.
B: you can get multiple Captains, or use a Dreadnought+Wisdom to get more rerolls if you need. I find that a single Captain + Lt. Can cover enough area though. If not everybody, enough to get by. Oftentimes objective grabbers aren't requiring increased damage output.
C: 17% and 20% are close enough for me. But it also takes a lot less effort to kill Guardsmen than Marines, so their Lascannon is likely to be around for less time. Guard don't have the same reroll abilities, also they're more hurt by -1s to hit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/11 22:39:54
If not for Primaris junk they'd still be the one of the hardest to kill ->TROOP<- units in the game (I mean Crons can ignore being killed a lot of times and Mary Sue Gold and Mary Sue Silver Marines got their shenanigans but whatever). 14 is more then fair.
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
Primark G wrote: If the basic Marine was changed to 10 points a week later the same people would complain just as much as now.
How many people were complaining about 10pt marines 30k vs 40k?
people have been playing that for YEARS and never even once have i seen anyone complain about 10pt marines, sure they lack ATSKNF, but so do the current ones (i.e immunity to losing models to a failed morale test)
I just feel this thread is mostly a classic dakka whinerfest. Move along now nothing to see here.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Fafnir wrote: I'm not a fan of the scale creep, regardless of how fairly pointed you'd want tac marines to be. If anything, everything else needs to come up.
That, and this Primaris/non-primaris distinction crap needs to get tossed out, and just be run with a standard 2W statline.
It's easier to fix one faction than suckify everyone else.
Honestly the sad part is that if people want cheaper marines in lists, they just use scouts. Same statline, slightly worse save. Why pay a tax for an extra save that's going to be ignored by certain kinds of weapons anyway? People save the points, use scouts as screen units, and ignore Tactical Marines entirely.
I definitely think the problem is not a points problem, but a problem with the system of AP. Rending weapons are given to too many things, and there's no distinction between a Land Raider and a Guardsman when a Lascannon fires at them.
I'm not a fan of making 40k any more complicated than it is anyway, but I do really miss the old AP and cover mechanics. I don't miss the old vehicle rules, but something's gotta budge if Tactical Marines will ever come back to the fore.
Or, this could be a grand plan by GW to phase out the Tactical and push people to get more Primaris Marines for when they eventually eschew tacticals completely.
Because why should marines all of a sudden just be twice as durable in proportion to the other races? There's nearly 30 years of 1 wound consistency here.
Play primaris then.
Because it'll make them more fun and elite? Also, 30 years of consistency went down the drain with 2W terminators. And then there's 2W stealthsuits, 3W crisis suits and plenty of other units that got bumped.
Also, primaris lack a lot of options. And it's the thing that bothers me most about them. Players are forced to choose between options and durability when we could easily have both.
To be honest I also dislike the idea of making space marines cheaper, just because I think one of the biggest problem of the game is that theres so much cheap infantry that you don't have enough room for balance.
Plus, cheaper models means more expensive armies, moneywise.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Because why should marines all of a sudden just be twice as durable in proportion to the other races? There's nearly 30 years of 1 wound consistency here.
Play primaris then.
Because it'll make them more fun and elite? Also, 30 years of consistency went down the drain with 2W terminators. And then there's 2W stealthsuits, 3W crisis suits and plenty of other units that got bumped.
Also, primaris lack a lot of options. And it's the thing that bothers me most about them. Players are forced to choose between options and durability when we could easily have both.
30 years of consistency did not go out the window with terminators. Prior to 3rd they had a 3+ on 2D6, and 3-7 they had a 2+ vs. everything up to AP2 weapons. They have always been tough, 2w plus their 2+5++ is how thats currently expressed.
Marines have always been slighly tougher than an Aspect Warrior in heavy armor, due to a T4. That's where they should be, slightly tougher. As tough as an Ork, in Heavy Aspect Armor. Not more than twice as tough. The relationship between the units has stayed relatively consistent.
Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
I think the whole game needs to be re-priced rather than just tactical marines more like ten thousand points to play with and a basic guardsman starting out at ten points.
But scale has never been a particularly great part of 40k.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I think the whole game needs to be re-priced rather than just tactical marines more like ten thousand points to play with and a basic guardsman starting out at ten points.
But scale has never been a particularly great part of 40k.
That would be cutting the relative cost of a guardsman by more than half, assuming a 2000 point standard for the game as it is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 04:19:40
Fafnir wrote: Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
Which fluff are you reading? IMO Marines and Aspect Warriors are roughly equal opponents, and 2W marines would skew that heavily.
Fafnir wrote: Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
Which fluff are you reading? IMO Marines and Aspect Warriors are roughly equal opponents, and 2W marines would skew that heavily.
Isn't the whole deal with eldar that they are glass cannons? Being less durable than marines makes sense, just so long as they hit harder.
Fafnir wrote: Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
Which fluff are you reading? IMO Marines and Aspect Warriors are roughly equal opponents, and 2W marines would skew that heavily.
Isn't the whole deal with eldar that they are glass cannons? Being less durable than marines makes sense, just so long as they hit harder.
They're going to hit a lot less hard if marines have 2 wounds.
Fafnir wrote: Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
Which fluff are you reading? IMO Marines and Aspect Warriors are roughly equal opponents, and 2W marines would skew that heavily.
Isn't the whole deal with eldar that they are glass cannons? Being less durable than marines makes sense, just so long as they hit harder.
They're going to hit a lot less hard if marines have 2 wounds.
Fafnir wrote: Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
Which fluff are you reading? IMO Marines and Aspect Warriors are roughly equal opponents, and 2W marines would skew that heavily.
Okay? Most of the warrior aspects are pretty trash right now too. Maybe that's also worth considering.
Age of Sigmar's closest equivalents tend to have 2 wounds, and it works out pretty well for semi-elite infantry, both in giving them some much needed durability, and establishing an echelon of units separate from the lowest level line infantry. Considering that 8th edition borrows heavily from AoS, it's odd that they didn't take this route as well.
So you might conclude marines are a bit fragile - but this could potentially be mitigated if you could reliably get cover and I think at least some tables are starting to make that more plausible.
The real problem is you pay 13 points for a boltgun - and this is a joke. Kabalites pay less than half and get a gun which is the same or better in a lot of situations. Tau pay just over half and get a gun which is always better.
Galas wrote: To be honest I also dislike the idea of making space marines cheaper, just because I think one of the biggest problem of the game is that theres so much cheap infantry that you don't have enough room for balance.
Plus, cheaper models means more expensive armies, moneywise.
You can't let your personal feeling get in the way of balance - this obviously seems to be a problem with GW.
Fafnir wrote: Well, yes, but at least point values serve a purpose.Not so much in the case of making Marines have 1W, not anymore. The fluff certainly doesn't depict them that way, and it's becoming pretty clear that there's no niche for them as 1W models in 8th edition. Keeping them the same just because they've had 1W in previous editions serves no purpose.
Which fluff are you reading? IMO Marines and Aspect Warriors are roughly equal opponents, and 2W marines would skew that heavily.
Elite Eldar infatry lost something that they always had on marines. High inititive. Initiaive has been removed from the game. They didn't revice any compensation for that - aspect warriors need increased ablity also - no one takes the close combat aspects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 15:44:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Children of Stirba 
Order of Saint Pan Thera 
