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Agents of vect is really strong. In fact it's busted. I'm gonna assume they are only taking 1 kabal detachment and value it above flayed skull. In that case it is probably the right call. However - if you are running a double kabal like I do - you basically run the min blackheart and take your ravagers there because they benefit the most from the detachment (I take a flyer in there too)

For warriros in venoms and radiers though - 6+FNP is vastly outperformed by reroll 1's ignore cover and +3 move speed. (this is really the core of a DE army).

 Jaxler wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

T 4 means nothing most of the time.

If you ignore the fact that the vast majority of basic weapons are eithe S3 or S4.

Yes, so your T4 means your being wounded on 5s by lasguns and 3s by pulse rifles.

Congratulations, most heavy rate of fire/weight of numbers weapons are scary to you.

Lasguns are a "weight of numbers" weapon. If marines were T3 they'd kill marines 50% faster. Bolters, 33% faster. Saying T4 means nothing most of the time is a non-starter.

When you pay MEQ prices for a T3 4+, you learn to fear the lasgun and boltgun.

Bharring wrote:
When you pay MEQ prices for a T3 4+, you learn to fear the lasgun and boltgun.

When you pay meq prices for T4 3+, you still fear the lasgun and boltgun. And we don't fancy rides we can stay in the whole game.

Well, if you want to stay in your ride the whole game, you don't pay MEQ prices. You pick Scouts and Storm Guardians. But nobody stays in rides the whole game.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
When you pay MEQ prices for a T3 4+, you learn to fear the lasgun and boltgun.

When you pay meq prices for T4 3+, you still fear the lasgun and boltgun. And we don't fancy rides we can stay in the whole game.

Neither do Eldar, tbf. or Tau. Just dark eldar.

Wave serpent is pretty sexy, but a 5 DA tax makes it a lot less sexy, I'll admit.

Tau transports. LOL. But firewarriors are cheap enough to be throwaway fodder on foot. And they shoot much farther than DA, as well. Devilfish are more expensive than the unit they protect, and so are basically useless. Just take more bodies. You can never go wrong with that in 8th.

DA, like marines, just aren't very good anymore.

Even with a points reduction, 8th edition changes have crippled the classic marine play style without giving it anything (or not much) new to make up for it.

These changes include:
1. Rhinos no longer have fire points
2. Units no longer get +1 attack on the charge
3. AP changes modifying saves (this hurts good saves way more than bad ones)
4. Close combat locking up vehicles
5. ATSKNF changes
6. The new S and T to wound tables.
7. Bolters having no AP
8. Vehicles getting lots of wounds.
9. Changes to vehicle cover rules

While I think a lot of these changes are fine for the game as a whole, they all reduce the effectiveness of most marine units significantly.

In previous editions a 5 man tac squad with a special and Combi weapon in a rhino was at least a semi-effective unit. Bring able to shoot once or twice before the rhino got popped allowed the unit some durability and a reasonably effective damage output. When they did finally get out, they could shoot and charge, with bolters that did more damage to units with bad saves, and 5 more close combat attacks than they have now. The unit + rhino also cost significantly less.

Now the unit costs more, can't shoot out of the rhino, and is worse in both shooting and close combat. So they went from being a cheap, fairly effective unit, to an expensive bad one.

Additionally, the changes to vehicle durability make it so 2 melta guns by themselves are significantly less likely to destroy an enemy vehicle by themselves, making a unit that can only take 1 special + Combi much less worth taking as an anti vehicle unit. The added general uselessness of grav and flamers make plasma the only real choice of weapon, but again the main way to get into range is to take an overpriced vehicle and no one is particularly scared of two plasma guns for how much you are paying to get them there. Doubling up two Tacs for 1 transport helps this, but not by much. The buff to Combi weapons no longer being 1 shot per game is also nice, except you can't stay in the tank anymore, so you probably die after that first turn anyway.

The alternative to the rhino tac squad is the single heavy weapon
tac squad. This can sit on objectives and shoot at stuff. The issue here is that 1 las cannon is a lot less scary than it used to be only doing an average of 3.5 damage if it both hits and wounds, and the rest of the squad being utterly useless. Yes, they can hold objectives fairly well, but if that's all you are doing, you might as well bring intercessors, who are significantly better at staying alive in cover, and have better basic guns.

So to me the issue is that regardless of how much they cost, tac Marines just aren't good units for the current state of the game.

I think in order for them to be decent again, we'd some significant changes.

Some combination of the following would start to address the problems:

All power armor is +1 to save vs 1d weapons.
Terminator armor takes -1 damage to a min of 1.
All Marines gain +1 attack base
Chainswords are -1 AP
Bolters are -1 AP
Tac squads can take 2 special or heavy weapons per 5 models, plus a Combi.
Assault squads get +1 attack on the charge
Grav is d3 damage vs everything, and gets +1 to wound vs 3+ saves.
Flamers get 2d6 hits to a max of the number of models in the unit, and ignore cover.
OC Plasma always causes a single mortal wound on a natural roll of 1 despite rerolls or modifiers.
Rhinos have two fire points and get cheaper.
Drop pods get cheaper and can hold dreads again.
ATSKNF changes to also always allow all Marines to fall back from CC and still shoot at -1.
Ultramarines CT changes to let them shoot all their guns in close combat.
All vehicles get chapter tactics and ATSKNF.
Roboute's aura changes to only rerolls of 1s to hit and wound and is extended to 12".
The strats that require 3 units now only require 2.
SM get a strat to shoot a unit twice.
White scars CT changes to advance and charge (their strat changes to fall back and charge)
Salamanders CT changes to letting 1 weapon per unit fire twice per turn (like a free cherub).
Iron Hands get 6+ FNP, +1 to existing FNP rolls, and no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
Ravenguard CT changes to always count as in cover if over 12" away. Their strat changes to let 1-3 units deploy exactly like scouts do currently.
Emperial fists CT gains +1 to armor saves when in cover (doesn't count as a cover save) and still ignore enemy cover.
Sternguard can use their ammo on storm bolters.
Bikes can get cover like infantry.
Land speeders can deepstrike and double up on their weapons again.
Land speeder storms get a scout deploy.
Chaplains aura changes to reroll all wounds in cc instead of hits.
Apothecaries return D3 wounds worth of healing to 1 unit per turn. This is healing to existing models if possible, but whole models if not.
Dreads have a 5+ invul save.

These would be Marines i would want to play. It's definitely possible some/many points costs would have to go up, but I think they would feel like Marines again so that would be fine. Obviously these things won't all happen, but it's the dream, and to me sort of shows just how bad Marines are now.

Well that makes my plan seem rather tame in comparison. I just want them cheaper so I have more bodies to feed into the disintegrator slaughter house.

So, a Sister might die more readily to a bolter. A Tac might lose more points per death.

But there are only so many shots that will occur in a game. And so many wounds to apply them to. This is where the edge might go to Sisters.

It takes 6.8 bolter shots to kill a Sister and 9 for a Tac.

It takes 76% of the bolter shots to kill a Sister over a Tac, but that Sister is 69% of the cost. Read as more bolter shots required proportional to the cost differential.
A GEQ is 31% (kill) and 38% (cost) to a Tac.

Now what happens with S6 AP1?
3.6 - Sister
4.5 - Marine

Or 80% (keep in mind the 69% cost ratio). It takes more! Even the GEQ goes up to 48%.
(assuming my brain has functioned properly)

Now if we assume you'll get the following in a game:

100 bolter shots (if even)
24 AC shots
etc

You might be able to see how you just won't be able to put in enough shots to affect Sisters like you can affect Marines or GEQ for that matter.

It's important to bear in mind that these figures are WILDLY off. The marines don't have far to go, but I would start with 12 points. It also gets more complex when you start to consider weapons/upgrades.

I would argue that ap5 weapons *not* getting AP-1 was a buff to Tacs, not a nerf.

It was, but there's still too much going against them. Like 4 and 6 pt enemy troops.

Holy crap dude - tactical squads are literally the worst unit in the game - they have no buffs.

Try saying that to:
Storm Guardians
Assault Marines
PAGK
Corsairs
Wraithknights

Tacs are bad, but nowhere close to the worst unit in the game.

I agree with that there are tons of units worse than taC marines. They aren’t even the worst unit in any given marine dex.

jcd386 wrote:
Even with a points reduction, 8th edition changes have crippled the classic marine play style without giving it anything (or not much) new to make up for it.

These changes include:
1. Rhinos no longer have fire points
2. Units no longer get +1 attack on the charge
3. AP changes modifying saves (this hurts good saves way more than bad ones)
4. Close combat locking up vehicles
5. ATSKNF changes
6. The new S and T to wound tables.
7. Bolters having no AP
8. Vehicles getting lots of wounds.
9. Changes to vehicle cover rules

They gained split fire, which is huge for Tacs.
SM in general gained excellent reroll opportunities. Lieutenants being a specific addition to supprt that.

 Insectum7 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Even with a points reduction, 8th edition changes have crippled the classic marine play style without giving it anything (or not much) new to make up for it.

These changes include:
1. Rhinos no longer have fire points
2. Units no longer get +1 attack on the charge
3. AP changes modifying saves (this hurts good saves way more than bad ones)
4. Close combat locking up vehicles
5. ATSKNF changes
6. The new S and T to wound tables.
7. Bolters having no AP
8. Vehicles getting lots of wounds.
9. Changes to vehicle cover rules

They gained split fire, which is huge for Tacs.
SM in general gained excellent reroll opportunities. Lieutenants being a specific addition to supprt that.

The problem is that tac marines have lost more than they gained.
Split fire would be huge if they weren't paying silly costs for heavy weapons.
Also the aura re-rolls hobbles them into castleing in a corner and hoping they don't get tabled its a terrible army design to play.

While I think his suggestions would turn marines into the next OP army, and some of the suggestion are actually worse than the rules as they stand.

Captains and lts are just too costly, along with every other entry.

 Insectum7 wrote:
13 is fine, they could be 12. They should not have two wounds even at a points increase. That would skew their relationship to too many other staple units, like Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, etc. If you wan't uber marines, play primaris. That's what they're for.

Wait, what's wrong with giving marines +1 W? I think Primaris have the stats that all marines should have. And what does their relationship with "staple" units matter at all? If anything, marines look flabby next to other "staple" units.
And as for playing Primaris, well, they don't get the same gun options, or transports options so it's not the same.

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Even with a points reduction, 8th edition changes have crippled the classic marine play style without giving it anything (or not much) new to make up for it.

These changes include:
1. Rhinos no longer have fire points
2. Units no longer get +1 attack on the charge
3. AP changes modifying saves (this hurts good saves way more than bad ones)
4. Close combat locking up vehicles
5. ATSKNF changes
6. The new S and T to wound tables.
7. Bolters having no AP
8. Vehicles getting lots of wounds.
9. Changes to vehicle cover rules

They gained split fire, which is huge for Tacs.
SM in general gained excellent reroll opportunities. Lieutenants being a specific addition to supprt that.

The problem is that tac marines have lost more than they gained.
Split fire would be huge if they weren't paying silly costs for heavy weapons.
Also the aura re-rolls hobbles them into castleing in a corner and hoping they don't get tabled its a terrible army design to play.

While I think his suggestions would turn marines into the next OP army, and some of the suggestion are actually worse than the rules as they stand.

Captains have a move characteristic. They shouldn't be just standing in a corner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
13 is fine, they could be 12. They should not have two wounds even at a points increase. That would skew their relationship to too many other staple units, like Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, etc. If you wan't uber marines, play primaris. That's what they're for.

Wait, what's wrong with giving marines +1 W? I think Primaris have the stats that all marines should have. And what does their relationship with "staple" units matter at all? If anything, marines look flabby next to other "staple" units.
And as for playing Primaris, well, they don't get the same gun options, or transports options so it's not the same.

Because why should marines all of a sudden just be twice as durable in proportion to the other races? There's nearly 30 years of 1 wound consistency here.

Play primaris then.

Martel732 wrote:
Captains and lts are just too costly, along with every other entry.

If a captain is only providing buffs and not making "use" of it's wounds, attacks, or BS then maybe. And it depends what he buffs.

4 LC devs - 2.7 hits goes to 3.1 (ignoring cherub, etc). That's like adding 24 points to that unit's value.
10 Tacs w/ 2 Plasma? 6.7 hits goes to 7.7 and adds 23 points of value. Double that in rapid fire. And add on that plasma wielders will die less.

If a Captain is buffing one unit and not doing anything else - he's not worth it. Two units might break even (or better) based on various circumstances.

Marine characters on foot are very underwheming in my experience. By the time they get involved, i'm almost tabled.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Holy crap dude - tactical squads are literally the worst unit in the game - they have no buffs.

Servitors? Striking Scorpions?

Tacs are bad, but they've got miles on the worst stinkers 40k has to offer.

Tacs worst feature is how many other units are derived from them. Even i'm not saying they are the worst.

DAs -> Both Reapers and Banshees are derived from them. Reapers are good, Banshees are bad

Tacs -> Both Zerkers and ASM are derived from them. Zerkers are good, ASM are bad.

It's not quite that simple.

That's a pretty good point, knights have 4x as many wounds. Maybe they should have 6 again

With all the inflated amount of damage/shots/mortal wounds even at 24 wounds knights still CAN go down in a single turn

They could easily move to 11 and still be considered "just mediocre troops." Atsknf is worthless, they don't have the bodies to cover much table space, their guns suck, their melee output REALLY sucks, and most of their special options are overcosted when put on such fragile bodies in tiny squads.

It would take a LOT of pushing to actually have them cross into overpowered territory.

Unfortunately this will never be fixed, as there are a TON of people who hate marines, hate marine players, hate marine lore, hate marine models, hate any kind of marine update...and they are extremely vocal about it. You know the type. The ones that say you aren't allowed to suggest marines aren't the best ever because they can have imperium allies, and used to have free transports, and a hundred other illogical arguments.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Even with a points reduction, 8th edition changes have crippled the classic marine play style without giving it anything (or not much) new to make up for it.

These changes include:
1. Rhinos no longer have fire points
2. Units no longer get +1 attack on the charge
3. AP changes modifying saves (this hurts good saves way more than bad ones)
4. Close combat locking up vehicles
5. ATSKNF changes
6. The new S and T to wound tables.
7. Bolters having no AP
8. Vehicles getting lots of wounds.
9. Changes to vehicle cover rules

They gained split fire, which is huge for Tacs.
SM in general gained excellent reroll opportunities. Lieutenants being a specific addition to supprt that.

The problem is that tac marines have lost more than they gained.
Split fire would be huge if they weren't paying silly costs for heavy weapons.
Also the aura re-rolls hobbles them into castleing in a corner and hoping they don't get tabled its a terrible army design to play.

While I think his suggestions would turn marines into the next OP army, and some of the suggestion are actually worse than the rules as they stand.

Captains have a move characteristic. They shouldn't be just standing in a corner.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
13 is fine, they could be 12. They should not have two wounds even at a points increase. That would skew their relationship to too many other staple units, like Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, etc. If you wan't uber marines, play primaris. That's what they're for.

Wait, what's wrong with giving marines +1 W? I think Primaris have the stats that all marines should have. And what does their relationship with "staple" units matter at all? If anything, marines look flabby next to other "staple" units.
And as for playing Primaris, well, they don't get the same gun options, or transports options so it's not the same.

Because why should marines all of a sudden just be twice as durable in proportion to the other races? There's nearly 30 years of 1 wound consistency here.

Play primaris then.

There's a world of difference between saying "marines aren't the best ever" and "marines have never been OP". The references to past setups is more about refuting the extreme claim that Marines have never been good / Marines have always been terrible.

Bharring wrote:
There's a world of difference between saying "marines aren't the best ever" and "marines have never been OP". The references to past setups is more about refuting the extreme claim that Marines have never been good / Marines have always been terrible.

The actual marines themselves? Like the tacs, asm, and devs? Yeah those have been pretty trashy for a long time now. The marine army has been pretty stout at times, but it wasn't the battle brothers towing that cable.