Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galef wrote:
Tesla is a good comparison, yes.
I wanted something that not only represented the Explosive Round (which is what I'll call this rule from now on), but also helped even basic Marines do more damage to a unit, not just models in a unit.

6s to wound cause 2 wound instead of 1 seems a decent and easy add-on

Bharring wrote:
Because reroll saves is actually *really* strong.

I'm not suggesting that, Slayer-Fan was and was commenting about my change

-

What about giving them Fury of the Legion? That is a skill that they had in the Heresy, why would they lose it over time?

The use of oldmarines compared to primaris is their special weapons.

FotL isn’t a skill they have for real, it’s a game thing. It’s a game thing that helps mass bolters and old marines aren’t massed bolter units, they’re mixed.

Mhm. That's better for Legion marines when you're talking 20 man squads with bolters, they had support squads. (I always thought support squads was a cool idea though, and it's kinda nice to see in primaris. Maybe we could do with it coming back.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

There is no good reason at all to keep the guard version “normal” and make a better marine one.

I would expect that a guardsman would require toned-down ammunition compared to a space marine, to avoid breaking his shoulder with the recoil!

I think a stratagem to pay for at the start of the game to give all bolter weapons a special rule (for special ammunition) would be the best option - it means that people who're running massed boltguns can choose to pay for the benefit, but people running minimum marines can keep them "cheap" and spend the CP elsewhere.

It would also be a lot easier to add in, using chapter approved, and simply list the codices which it can be used with.

ASTARTES PATTER BOLTERS --- 2CP
Add the following rule to all Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, (etc, I don't have a full list of bolter weapons) and to the bolter profile of combi-weapons:
Astartes Pattern Bolters: any unmodified rolls of "6" to wound with this weapon inflict 3 wounds, as opposed to 1. Wounds caused against VEHICLE and TITANIC units do not generate additional rules.

ASTARTES PATTER BOLTERS --- 2CP
Add the following rule to all Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, (etc, I don't have a full list of bolter weapons) and to the bolter profile of combi-weapons:
Astartes Pattern Bolters: any unmodified rolls of "6" to wound with this weapon inflict 3 wounds, as opposed to 1. Wounds caused against VEHICLE and TITANIC units do not generate additional rules.

Bharring wrote:
Yes, the Eldar factions *are* very different. But if CSM and GK are considered just another flavor of Marines, then aren't Dark Eldar and CWE just another flavor of Eldar?

My point is that there are a *lot* of different Marine factions.

But yes, I did miss AdMech, Necrons, and Demons. Custodes have Hurricane Bolters (at least), and Knights are really hard to count as a "seperate army" when CSM, GK, Deathwatch, and Smurfs, among others, all get rolled into one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To elaborate, the response was a flippant counterexample of excessive reduction.

Sisters of Silence also use Bolters

The various Marine Chapters are subfactions of the Space Marine faction with mostly minor cosmetic differences which are overempahsied or would be present in other chapters but for historic reasons get a specil Codex.

The Eldar Subfactions that are the equivalent of Marine Chapters are the Craftworlds, Kabals, Cults etc. The only reason that they don't get their own Codex (or Guard regiments, Ork Klans etc) is the release schedule is always clogged with Marines.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

ASTARTES PATTER BOLTERS --- 2CP
Add the following rule to all Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, (etc, I don't have a full list of bolter weapons) and to the bolter profile of combi-weapons:
Astartes Pattern Bolters: any unmodified rolls of "6" to wound with this weapon inflict 3 wounds, as opposed to 1. Wounds caused against VEHICLE and TITANIC units do not generate additional rules.

My issue with that is it hurts monstrous creatures with x3 wounds on a 6 but not vehicles? Why not make it when it targets INFANTRY and SWARMS instead.

Hellblasters already do enough of a great job invalidating my Tyranid Monsters, I don't want to suffer any more running my Nidzilla!

Good point, I had forgotten about monsters! I can roll with only affecting infantry and swarms. I think a bolter would be insignificant to a monster.

An alternative, to keep the bite on other things, is 3 wounds on infantry / swarms, and 2 wounds on vehicles/monsters/titanic.

A really easy change would be to add the following to all bolter weapons: "When rolling to wound against infantry and biker models you can reroll failed to wound rolls".

Clean easy and effective. Gives a clear role to bolter weapons and reduces the reliancy on auras.

So a Mutilator and a Tac Marine are the same thing with minor variatons, but a Corsair and a Guardian are miles apart?

All Eldar share the base stats:
S3
T3
M7
WS3+
BS3+
Standard armor: 5+

All Marines share:
S4
T4
M6
WS3+
BS3+
Standard armor 3+


The difference between UltraMarines and Blood Angels is much akin to the difference between CWE and Corsairs.

The biggest difference between Eldar factions is probably CWE Guardian Warhosts and DE Covens. But how is that any more different than Smurfs vs Plague Marines?

Further, even if you assume half the armies in the game are one army (Space Marines have about a dozen different books), to do this fairly, you'd need to modify almost every other book. CWE, DE, and IG probably won't need as much attention, but there are more armies - Necrons, T'au, Demons, and especially Nids - that go from screwed to more-screwed with this change. So you'd need to adjust them, too.

So you *might* be able to leave maybe a half dozen books out of what, 20-some untouched?

Spoletta wrote:
A really easy change would be to add the following to all bolter weapons: "When rolling to wound against infantry and biker models you can reroll failed to wound rolls".

Clean easy and effective. Gives a clear role to bolter weapons and reduces the reliancy on auras.

The thing I’ll say for this is that it gives something to a single captain with his single weapon that does only a couple shots. The Galef procs on on 6 effects and worse yet the some bloke strategem. No, I want the character to be able to reliably get the effect, not just two shots out a very big squad. Come to think of it, characters have MC bolters with D2 you’ve now given them a random effect that doesn’t reliably help them but can also do 6 damage at very infrequent intervals. A combat squad where one model has a plasma gun and the sergeant isn’t fire two full-bs bolter shots doesn’t get very much out of this either.

I’ve never been interested in rerolls for basic weapons but it’s sure better than random sixes.

Reroll wounds is faster to track, simpler to explain, and is less skewed towards affecting heavy targets over light targets (like Guardsmen).

It's a cleaner solution that does basically the same thing.

The difference between UltraMarines and Blood Angels is much akin to the difference between CWE and Corsairs.

So Blood Angels aren't playable?

And who cares if you have to change a lot of gak. Sometimes to fix things sweeping changes are needed.

This aversion to fixing things just because it effects X amount of codices is downright silly.

The only fix boltguns need is AP-1. Of course because of primaris we can't have that, see this hole GW dug normal space marines in?

Corsairs are technically playable now.

I'm saying that Corsairs are no more different from CWE than BA are from UltraMarines. BA certainly have a lot more options than Corsairs. I'm fairly sure BA have more options that differ from UltraMarines than Corsairs have options period.

We can rewrite the game, certainly. But we need to recognize if we're going to change Boltguns, we're going to be changing most of the armies in the game.

That's fine by me. Actually the only fix I think is needed doesn't need a rewrite.


2W, 2A, -1 AP marines. Marine boltguns are superior to human held boltguns.

But yes, other changes would need a rewrite. I think alot of that could be solved by getting rid of BA, DA, SW, TS, and DG as their own books.

There is no good point at all in making the tiny, almost irrelevant portion of non space marine boltguns a special kind of weak boltgun. That’s just vacuous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, on the other hand, making power armor really good offensively with offensive bonuses, that’s a definitely amazing way to make marines better than guard sergeants.

I agree when it comes to guard. Just make it cost a few extra points.

But you got SoB who all have boltguns. Now, they might not oppose to -1 AP either, even if it needs a small point bump. So maybe it's fine either way.

Yeah that’s much better game design to keep them uniform.

If you were going to insist on microscopically realistic rules maybe there’d be a hit penalty for moving and firing, or something siilare, but what would be the benefit to the game experience, I think it’d be a minor effect.

+1 to consistency.

If Boltguns do get AP-1 (not something I'd want), giving it to SOB and in a few places to Custodes/IG/Inq would be better than splitting the Boltgun into two weapons or adding some fancy rules hacking. Those units could be repointed after the change, but nearly everything needs repointing after such a change anyways.

That’s a good example for people who talk about universal formulas for point costs. If guard commanders could upgrade to an s4 ap-1 gun for three points, it wouldn’t change the way the army plays at all. People might not even bother converting their models if it cost just a single solitary point to get a bolt gun. Infantry squads would be the same, tanks would be the same, and the army would use all the same tactics, probably even if every sergeant in every squad got a free ap-1 boltgun.

If a squad of guard vets could buy them, then that would be something very sensitive to points.

Bharring wrote:
So a Mutilator and a Tac Marine are the same thing with minor variatons, but a Corsair and a Guardian are miles apart?

All Eldar share the base stats:
S3
T3
M7
WS3+
BS3+
Standard armor: 5+

All Marines share:
S4
T4
M6
WS3+
BS3+
Standard armor 3+


The difference between UltraMarines and Blood Angels is much akin to the difference between CWE and Corsairs.

The biggest difference between Eldar factions is probably CWE Guardian Warhosts and DE Covens. But how is that any more different than Smurfs vs Plague Marines?

Further, even if you assume half the armies in the game are one army (Space Marines have about a dozen different books), to do this fairly, you'd need to modify almost every other book. CWE, DE, and IG probably won't need as much attention, but there are more armies - Necrons, T'au, Demons, and especially Nids - that go from screwed to more-screwed with this change. So you'd need to adjust them, too.

So you *might* be able to leave maybe a half dozen books out of what, 20-some untouched?

Yeah, cos all Eldar are S3 T3 - lets talk Grotesuques and Wracks. There is a lot of pretend difference between the majority of Space Marine Chapters who they haev not bothered to do anything for and the super snowflake ones. Almost every pretend unique unit in a Snowflake chapter would be present as a equivalent in another Chapter or Chapters. 95% of all these uits could be included as extra weapon or similar options in standard datasheets without any real effort.

"Yeah, cos all Eldar are S3 T3 - lets talk Grotesuques and Wracks."
Because all Marines are S4T4?
Grots? Have you seen Mutilators?
Wracks? Have you seen Poxwalkers?

"There is a lot of pretend difference between the majority of Space Marine Chapters who they haev not bothered to do anything for and the super snowflake ones."
Agreed. BA isn't very different from UltraMarines. But GK, CSM, DG, and Tsons certainly are.

I do agree that BA, DA, and maybe SW could be folded into SM, but it'd take a lot more to fold the others.

DG and TS should be folded back into CSM with marks actually doing gak.

GK and Deathwatch would have to stay separate, though I think those could fit in an inquisition book nicely.

I don't mind grouping:
-Loyalist Marines - SM, BA, DA, SW
-GK
-Deathwatch
-CSM - CSM, DG, Tsons

But grouping Deathguard, GK, and SM as one goes too far.

Bharring wrote:
I don't mind grouping:
-Loyalist Marines - SM, BA, DA, SW
-GK
-Deathwatch
-CSM - CSM, DG, Tsons

But grouping Deathguard, GK, and SM as one goes too far.

All Space Marines in one, maybe have Grey Knights as one as we can;t get rid of crap like babycarriers.

I'd rather they had Chaos Power dexes plus undivided and Dark Mech

 Mr Morden wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I don't mind grouping:
-Loyalist Marines - SM, BA, DA, SW
-GK
-Deathwatch
-CSM - CSM, DG, Tsons

But grouping Deathguard, GK, and SM as one goes too far.

All Space Marines in one, maybe have Grey Knights as one as we can;t get rid of crap like babycarriers.

I'd rather they had Chaos Power dexes plus undivided and Dark Mech

Honestly the Cult Legions might need to be separated entirely after all the bizarre stuff they released for Death Guard and Thousand Sons. That would allow greater focus on balancing Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers for a single Codex.

Nah, with marks that actually do shiz we can represent them all fairly well. Each legion should have 1-2 unique units, maybe 3.

It should be
Codex: CSM
Codex: SM
Codex: Inquisition

Sir Heckington wrote:
Nah, with marks that actually do shiz we can represent them all fairly well. Each legion should have 1-2 unique units, maybe 3.

It should be
Codex: CSM
Codex: SM
Codex: Inquisition

Hmm, it would be more difficult for CSM, but at least NOT impossible.

Regarding Space Wolves, that would depend on how we incorporate them. Making all the Claws into one entry would probably do the trick. Then you would have to keep TWC and Wulfen.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
Nah, with marks that actually do shiz we can represent them all fairly well. Each legion should have 1-2 unique units, maybe 3.

It should be
Codex: CSM
Codex: SM
Codex: Inquisition

Hmm, it would be more difficult for CSM, but at least NOT impossible.

Regarding Space Wolves, that would depend on how we incorporate them. Making all the Claws into one entry would probably do the trick. Then you would have to keep TWC and Wulfen.

That would work fine. It'd also let us introduce units to other sub factions, such as medusan immortals, tyrant siege terminators and more.

I'm all for the Chapters getting a few unique units for sure. Personally for Iron Hands I would do the Iron Father, the Helfathers, and maybe those Immortals or maybe a generic HQ Dread.

Sir Heckington wrote:
DG and TS should be folded back into CSM with marks actually doing gak.

GK and Deathwatch would have to stay separate, though I think those could fit in an inquisition book nicely.

Death Guard have a lesser part of this problem, but the Thousand Sons really cannot be built in a satisfying way without a specific book and a specific army list. The organization is just so fundamentally different from the baseline assumptions of a CSM warband. It's a much larger difference than the distinction between Ultramarines and Dark Angels, that's for sure.