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Martel732 wrote:
Assault 3 would probably best.

So hurricane bolters go to 18 shots each
Storm bolters 6?

Oh crap. Forgot about those. GW is making my head hurt. They needed to stretch the stats. Make marines T5 with bolters S5. Make Custodes and DG T6. And so forth.

 Galef wrote:
In the same vein as Eldar Shuriken weapons that get AP-3 on a 6 to wound, or Necron weapons that have 1 better AP than their equivalents, I think Bolter weapons need something extra to help make Marines get more "punch"

With the explosive rounds of the Bolter, I feel a rule that activated on a 6 to would (similar to Eldar) should give them some kind of bonus.
But unlike Eldar and Necrons, I think it should be damage, rather than AP that gets modified.

However, I don't think increasing the Damage Characteristic of the gun would be the right choice, but rather the number of wounds caused
So a Bolter that rolls a 6 to wound, would cause 2 wounds, thus 2 saves that each cause 1 Damage.
This should scale well against both Hordes and Multi-wound models, and doesn't flood the game with yet more D2 weapons.

Thoughts?

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I like this suggestion, but I worry that it might be too minor to make a big difference. I'm also obsessed with my pet preference of overhauling the marine statline entirely to make them more powerful and more expensive though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Getting extra wounds on 6s is a "feel good" mechanic that doesn't actually increase the damage output of most bolter platforms all that much. So I like it from the perspective that it will make "bad" units like tac marines more pleasing to use without breaking the game. On the other hand, I don't think this is going to have much of an impact on list building or on the performance of most bolt weapon platforms, so part of me would rather consider more radical changes to marines rather than this particular change.

I also haven't considered how the math on this works out for, say, centurions or heavy bolter long fangs rerolling to-wound rolls. So there may be niche cases where this change would go from "feels good but mechanically minor" to problematically powerful.

IMHO many SM players don't see the real issues about their armies. All I see is suggestions about better armor and better shooting.

Those improvements would make SM even more similar to AM which is a shame, they are already mostly played as a gunline. SM need to be more versatile. Better psychic powers, more effective stratagems and more punch in melee. I'd like improvements like: "give Assault Marines lots of attacks on the charge" rather than making bolters AP-1 or upgrade the power armour to a 2+ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assault 3 would probably best.

So hurricane bolters go to 18 shots each
Storm bolters 6?

For 10 and 2 points? On BS3+ models? Come on, those weapons are already undercosted.

You need to look at the platforms taking the weapons with the cost of the weapon.

Storm Bolters arent undercosted. They're probably one of the only decent Bolt weapons to be honest.

Keep in mind what this will do to Primaris rifles, and anything once the Deathwatch boyos get their hands on them.

I do like the "3 wounds on a 6" aspect for bolters, but there's a situation where it might prove little much - vehicles.

If a unit is buffed to reroll wounds (which is normal) vs a T8 beasty, you get 3 wounds per 6, then reroll everything else to get more 6's. Essentially, you can only get 3 wounds or 0 with each shot. It's like the old snap-shooting TL tesla glitch from 7th.

As such this may be an effect to limit to "vs Infantry".

I would also advocate that models in power armour may fire boltguns as if they were assault weapons if they advance - they're the most elite army in the galaxy, after all. heck, even just any non-heavy weapon can be fired if they advance, at -1 to hit. Give them flexibility!

other options would include increasing boltgun range by 6" if the model doesn't move, to represent the marine actually taking a moment to aim instead of relying on his amazing skills, which usually work.

I am going to be honest, I think a flat -1 AP would make bolters more like how they were in earlier editions. Great at shredding light infantry, but not going to do much to MEQs.

If anything Necron Gauss should get a bonus vs vehicles to make it closer to older editions as well.

But it makes perfect sense for Vehicles that a Bolter would do most of its damage due to the Exploding Round. Rerolls be damned.

I'm doubling down on this. I really feel this is a great mechanic that not only improves Marines shooting output, but is very flavorful to the fluff.
It's meant to be a minor bonus as Marines still need other "fixes" like points decreases.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Xenos standard weapons would have special abilities, but not Bolter weapons.
Causing 2-3 wounds per roll of 6 to Wound is unique, yet similar to existing special abilities. It really does represent an Exploding Round of Bolt weapons, and helps with Horde control.

It's also a change that will affect the most units across the game, which is why it should be a minor buff.
I'm still not sure if it should be 2 wounds or 3, but I certainly think exploding 6s to wound should be a thing for Bolter weapons.


EDIT: I too feel that Gauss weapon, Shuriken weapons and Bolt weapons got mixed up rules for 8E.
If I were to rewritten then from the start, this is how I would have done it:

Gauss weapons: Keep their stats as-is, down 1 AP value, but add +1 damage.
So Flayer (AP-0) & Blasters (AP-1) would be D2, Cannons (AP-2) D3+1 and Heavy Cannon (AP-3) D6+1
Shuriken weapons would be -1S, +1shot and AP-1. So Catapults would be S3, Assault 3, AP-1. Cannons would be S5, Assault 4, AP-1
Bolt Weapons would then be free to have AP-3 on 6s to Wound to represent the exploding round

But alas, that didn't happen

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"You need around 14 marines to kill an extra guardsmen with this buff, without rerolls."

With 3 independent wounds on a 6? Not so sure:

3 Marines shoot Guardsmen...
Now: 3x2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 6x8/27, or about 1.778
Buffed: 3x2x(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) + 3x2x(2/3)(1/6)x3x(2/3) = 6x4/18 + 12/9 = 2.667

So it didn't double the firepower vs Guardsmen, but it is a massive change.

As for vehicles? It doesn't make sense that the fragmentation effect of the rocket exploding is a lot more threatening to targets that need peneration, not shrapnel.

"It just doesn't make sense to me that Xenos standard weapons would have special abilities, but not Bolter weapons."
Pulse? No special rule.
Kroot Rifle? No special rule.
Gauss? No special rule.
Shoota? No special rule.
Gaunts? No special rule.
Shuriken? Special rule.
Poison? Special rule.

2 of 7 basic weapons for Xenos have special rules. That makes them the exception, not the rule. So if Marines need one because Eldar have one, what are you going to give to Tau? Necrons? Nids? You're not, because this is another "Someone has something Marines don't have: game is broken until that changes" thread.

(I like your proposed changes to Guass and Shuriken, though.)

Bharring wrote:
"You need around 14 marines to kill an extra guardsmen with this buff, without rerolls."

With 3 independent wounds on a 6? Not so sure:

3 Marines shoot Guardsmen...
Now: 3x2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 6x8/27, or about 1.778
Buffed: 3x2x(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) + 3x2x(2/3)(1/6)x3x(2/3) = 6x4/18 + 12/9 = 2.667

So it didn't double the firepower vs Guardsmen, but it is a massive change.

As for vehicles? It doesn't make sense that the fragmentation effect of the rocket exploding is a lot more threatening to targets that need peneration, not shrapnel.

"It just doesn't make sense to me that Xenos standard weapons would have special abilities, but not Bolter weapons."
Pulse? No special rule.
Kroot Rifle? No special rule.
Gauss? No special rule.
Shoota? No special rule.
Gaunts? No special rule.
Shuriken? Special rule.
Poison? Special rule.

2 of 7 basic weapons for Xenos have special rules. That makes them the exception, not the rule. So if Marines need one because Eldar have one, what are you going to give to Tau? Necrons? Nids? You're not, because this is another "Someone has something Marines don't have: game is broken until that changes" thread.

(I like your proposed changes to Guass and Shuriken, though.)

Ah, I was going with what the original post read, so 2 independent wounds on a 6. Also wasn't taking into account rapid fire, so it'd be more like 7 marines in RF.

I was going off
So a Bolter that rolls a 6 to wound, would cause 2 wounds, thus 2 saves that each cause 1 Damage.

Just to point out, Orks now have Dakka-Dakka, so there is their shooting bonus.
And while Gauss has no special rule per se, all Gauss weapons have -1AP above other equivalents.
AP5/6 translated to AP0 in 8E
AP4 = AP-1
AP3 = AP-2 and so on
Gauss weapons across the board have an additional -1AP to that change. So that is their "rule"
The same happened for weapons that once had Lance or Rending in that they got an additional -1AP

The point of Exploding Rounds for Bolters is to add a fluff addition that never existed while at the same time, making the Bolter a bit more fearsome than a Lasgun, which currently it is just to similar to. And Lasguns have the numbers to still be better than Bolters, which is garbage.
Even if Marines get bumped down to 11ppm in CA, that still only adds 1 Marine per 5 (65pts for 5 now vs 66pts for 6)
That's only 1 more bolter. That's hardly going to make Marines do more damage in the shooting phase.

I'm fine with your assessment that 3 wounds per 6 to wound may be OP en masse, but 2 wounds per 6 is far from OP.
I've already provided the math that shows that to only add 1 more wound per 5 Marines, but here it is again:

5 Marines in RF = 10 shots = 6ish hits = 3 wounds against T4, or 4 wounds against T3, normally.
Assuming an even spread of rolls to wound (1,2,3,4,5 & 6) that's just 1 extra wound than normal. So 4 Wounds vs T4 or 5 vs T3
Again, actually, with completely even rolls, no matter what the T is onf the target, you still just get 1 more wound. That's it.

Oh, and side note on the explosion doing more damage vs vehicles: it won't be the shrapnel, but the heat that causes the extra damage, thereby weakening the metal for further hits to cause more damage.

-

This isn't just a "marines don't have it so I want it" thread - it's mainly concerned with getting a realistic improvement to bolters which isn't game breaking but represents the fact that a boltgun shell is supposed to explode.

Reference your list, whilst these weapons don't have special rules, per se, if they haven't changed then tau basic weapons are longer range and higher strength, it sounds like gauss has better AP, orks have dakkadakkadakka which affects pretty much every shoota they field. can't comment on the rest but a gaunts gun should be basic due to cheapness.

if you want to slow the game down, you could have hits generated by passed saves, so if it rips through a gaunt it does nothing, but if it impacts armour it will explode.

so S4, each passed save generates a S3 hit.

but, as said, this will slow the game down.

I think the best option for balance would be:

"each unmodified to wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 wounds, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC."

bolters are anti-infantry. getting 3 wounds per successful wound roll on a knight with a 3+ save is the same (statistically) as being AP-4, but with more variation available due to chance. On average, each successful wound roll will cause 1 unsaved wound.

 some bloke wrote:

"each unmodified to wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 wounds, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC."

That's not a bad change to my proposal, actually. But if we are going to exclude Vehicles and Titans, it needs to be 3 wounds not 2. Really lean hard into the anti-infantry role.

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 Galef wrote:

 some bloke wrote:

"each unmodified to wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 wounds, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC."

That's not a bad change to my proposal, actually. But if we are going to exclude Vehicles and Titans, it needs to be 3 wounds not 2. Really lean hard into the anti-infantry role.

-

I like your original suggestion, however, what do you think about just re-rolling wounds for bolters in general? Is it strong? Yeah. Is it stupid strong? I don't think so. Also, arguably - math wise - this brings them quite close to the old AP5 in terms of damage output vs infantry. And in light of the fluff with mini rockets it kind of makes sense?

While not a fan, I'd point out that it inherently skews towards being more effective vs infantry than hard targets. It better reflects a fragmenting rocket-bolt.

 Galef wrote:

 some bloke wrote:

"each unmodified to wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 wounds, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC."

That's not a bad change to my proposal, actually. But if we are going to exclude Vehicles and Titans, it needs to be 3 wounds not 2. Really lean hard into the anti-infantry role.

-

I think that's fair, as there's not likely to be a huge amount of 6's rolled due to the limited quantities of marines.

2 hurricane bolters (24 shots, if I'm not mistaken?) would average 4 6's, so 8 extra wounds. That's a good amount, I'd say, for the anti-horde weaponry it's supposed to be.

edit - that's only if all hit, so 16 hits, result of 2-3 6's, so 4-6 extra wounds. not game breaking at all.

The next question is on applying it to heavier bolt weapons.

Heavy bolter? I'd say it works.
Vulcan Mega-Bolter? might even drop the non-vehicle rule for that one... it's supposed to be bigger bolts, after all.

edit edit: This does still have anti-elite repercussions though - wraithguard, terminators...

...I like it. give bolters some bite!

Just to clarify since there have been some revisions to my original proposal (thanx everyone), these are the 2 latest versions on my proposal:

"Exploding Round: Each roll to wound of 6 with this weapon causes 1 additional wound. This will mean 2 separate wounds need to be saved against, rather than 1"

OR

"Exploding Round: Each roll to wound of 6 with this weapon causes 2 additional wounds, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC. This will mean 3 separate wounds need to be saved against, rather than 1."

-

I'm good with the first iteration.

I don't agree that 3 on a 6 is balanced, I think 2 is where it should be.

I would take your second suggestion with this minor amendment.

"Exploding Round: Each roll to wound of 6 with this weapon causes an additional wound, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC. This will mean 2 separate wounds need to be saved against, rather than 1.

Gives the minor buff vs infantry, doesnt screw vehicles, and lets the other weapons do their own thing without raining on parades too much.

As for Up/Down Bolter Scaling, I honestly think it wouldnt be too much of an issue. Assault Cannons are closer to Stubber/Autoweapons anyway so dont need this really, and you could up it to 2 extras for a Heavy Bolter

Vulcans dont need to be touched, because hold crap they turn most things into Swiss Cheese already. Same with Warden Gatlin Cannons, Avengers and Castigators

 IHateNids wrote:

"Exploding Round: Each roll to wound of 6 with this weapon causes an additional wound, unless the target is a VEHICLE or TITANIC. This will mean 2 separate wounds need to be saved against, rather than 1...[snip].. and you could up it to 2 extras for a Heavy Bolter

I like that a lot. Makes regular bolters a big better against non-Vehicles with 2 per 6 and makes Heavy Bolters a worthwhile option to take if they do 3 per 6.

-

Just making Astartes (not other Imperial) bolters -1 save would be fine in my book...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who remembers the old citadel journal article on different ways to fire bolters? My favourite was a 1 inch blaster template at strength 3 no save mod (instead of strength 4 -1 save) , to reflect them hosing an area with shrapnel from the exploding rounds! idea was you had more choices when firing the weapons...

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Just making Astartes (not other Imperial) bolters -1 save would be fine in my book...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who remembers the old citadel journal article on different ways to fire bolters? My favourite was a 1 inch blaster template at strength 3 no save mod (instead of strength 4 -1 save) , to reflect them hosing an area with shrapnel from the exploding rounds! idea was you had more choices when firing the weapons...

wasn't that the way that old rubric marine fired their bolter, IIRC? They put a small blast template, but I think it was S4 AP5 or AP4, it was pretty good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Assault 3 would probably best.

So hurricane bolters go to 18 shots each
Storm bolters 6?

"For 10 and 2 points? On BS3+ models? Come on, those weapons are already undercosted."

How about a mortal wound on a natural 1 for saves?

Similar mechanic to the death jesters which also represents explosive rounds...

How about we just give marines special issue ammunition like the deathwatch? People seem to think they work all right, plus it prevents the whole cascade issue into Guard and Sisters who also have bolters. Surely the imperium has enough special ammo for all 1 million marines?

though i'm sure some of you will object to making deathwatch less special, but i'm not so sure that's a bad thing per se. They already have veterans as troops and access to power swords on the regular guys. there's also the fact that their squads are super adaptive.

Just food for thought.

I suppose the problem Dandelion is it doesn’t seem necessary to add wargear in their background when in the background they’ve already got these amazing reflexes, training, discipline, stability, and dexterity but in this game system they still shoot just as well as the dilettante teenager who inherited a platoon command because all you have is a single roll to hit or miss.

*sing-song voice*

Marines just need to be chee-eeper
That’s really all they need to do!
No special rules - they’re the baseline troop,
All other ideas can go screw!

Marines just need to be chee-eeper
It’s the simplest way to make do!
Fixes all the relative iss-sues
Without making a big pile of poo!

Marines just need to be chee-eeper
The chassis is the rotten bit!
Price them more like a Guardsman,
Y’all can stop this spazzy gak!

Now Everybody!

Marines just need to be chee-eeper...

 greatbigtree wrote:
*sing-song voice*

Marines just need to be chee-eeper
That’s really all they need to do!
No special rules - they’re the baseline troop,
All other ideas can go screw!

Marines just need to be chee-eeper
It’s the simplest way to make do!
Fixes all the relative iss-sues
Without making a big pile of poo!

Marines just need to be chee-eeper
The chassis is the rotten bit!
Price them more like a Guardsman,
Y’all can stop this spazzy gak!

Now Everybody!

Marines just need to be chee-eeper...

Genius. Absolute genius.

Poetry aside, the issue is that you can’t price them like guardsmen without the Elite Few outnumbering the Legions Of Death or Hordes Of Orks



Their only issue by general consensus is killing power, via guns or stabbing things

Since you can’t give them all +1 attack without horribly screwing all marine-based armies, a minor buff to the bolter makes sense