Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Your lack of understanding that we are talking about Anti-tank weapon, and a rule that is already in place to set wound roles, a weapon that is literally made to do more damage to vehicles over non-vehicles to have a rules to always wound on X.

You are the one with the reading comprehension problem for not understanding this.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Pretty sure it's something closer to 32ish if you include warlord titans.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Your lack of understanding that we are talking about Anti-tank weapon, and a rule that is already in place to set wound roles, a weapon that is literally made to do more damage to vehicles over non-vehicles to have a rules to always wound on X.

You are the one with the reading comprehension problem for not understanding this.

If we are talking about it as an AT weapon (which you clearly misunderstood, by your original post pointing out that it was only S4 against non AT targets), then the only strength tier that wounds everything up to T8 on a 2+, is an S16 equivalent.

This really shouldn't be that difficult or worth harassing me over.

Please do not ever throw doubt upon someone else's comprehension again, I'm yet to see you ever get something right first try. Or even second or third, since you are incapable of recognising your mistakes, only digging your hole deeper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kastelen wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Pretty sure it's something closer to 32ish if you include warlord titans.

True, good point.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Gonna have to disagree with the harlequin bikes being "needed". Simply put, no basic weapon in the game needs to be doing mortal wounds on 4+s, etc. That's obnoxious.

That's fine, wounds vehicles on 2+ with -4 save instead then.

so like... rapid fire Lascannons? Except with S16? and assault?

yep, so let's just keep haywire as is then

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Your lack of understanding that we are talking about Anti-tank weapon, and a rule that is already in place to set wound roles, a weapon that is literally made to do more damage to vehicles over non-vehicles to have a rules to always wound on X.

You are the one with the reading comprehension problem for not understanding this.

If we are talking about it as an AT weapon (which you clearly misunderstood, by your original post pointing out that it was only S4 against non AT targets), then the only strength tier that wounds everything up to T8 on a 2+, is an S16 equivalent.

This really shouldn't be that difficult or worth harassing me over.

Please do not ever throw doubt upon someone else's comprehension again, I'm yet to see you ever get something right first try. Or even second or third, since you are incapable of recognising your mistakes, only digging your hole deeper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kastelen wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Pretty sure it's something closer to 32ish if you include warlord titans.

True, good point.

Your kidding right? Did you just say Haywire is not meant as anti-tank? Is that what you are saying? Are you seriously saying that Haywire is not meant to be anti-vehicle/tank? Seriously?


Go back and re-read why this conversation started, it started with... you know what? dont i'll post it for you......

 bullyboy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Gonna have to disagree with the harlequin bikes being "needed". Simply put, no basic weapon in the game needs to be doing mortal wounds on 4+s, etc. That's obnoxious.

That's fine, wounds vehicles on 2+ with -4 save instead then.

So tell me again, what you where thinking? B.c clearly you dont have a reading comprehension and cant follow the post, or you are just trolling.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The irony in your statement is incredible, but I'm just going to let it lie as I know what you're fishing for. It's not a troll answer, the only S level that wounds all vehicle on 2+ is S16. It was a direct comparison, but I guess you lacked the comprehension to recognise that. As per usual you just responded with a snarky quip and doubled down on it. Stop quoting me with snide remarks. Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Your lack of understanding that we are talking about Anti-tank weapon, and a rule that is already in place to set wound roles, a weapon that is literally made to do more damage to vehicles over non-vehicles to have a rules to always wound on X.

You are the one with the reading comprehension problem for not understanding this.

If we are talking about it as an AT weapon (which you clearly misunderstood, by your original post pointing out that it was only S4 against non AT targets), then the only strength tier that wounds everything up to T8 on a 2+, is an S16 equivalent.

This really shouldn't be that difficult or worth harassing me over.

Please do not ever throw doubt upon someone else's comprehension again, I'm yet to see you ever get something right first try. Or even second or third, since you are incapable of recognising your mistakes, only digging your hole deeper.

Your kidding right? Did you just say Haywire is not meant as anti-tank? Is that what you are saying? Are you seriously saying that Haywire is not meant to be anti-vehicle/tank? Seriously?


Go back and re-read why this conversation started, it started with... you know what? dont i'll post it for you......

 bullyboy wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Gonna have to disagree with the harlequin bikes being "needed". Simply put, no basic weapon in the game needs to be doing mortal wounds on 4+s, etc. That's obnoxious.

That's fine, wounds vehicles on 2+ with -4 save instead then.

So tell me again, what you where thinking? B.c clearly you dont have a reading comprehension and cant follow the post, or you are just trolling.

Holy gak. The English language is NOT this hard.

He said 'wounds wounds vehicles on 2+ with -4 save instead then.'

I quite clearly responded to this in context, saying so then it would be a S16 Lascannon then (which it would be the equivalent of, when firing against tanks). My entire point is revolves around it being used as an AT weapon, as this is obviously not the case if used against infantry.

You on the other hand, then responded and said 'No.. it wounds "vehicles on 2+ and has -4ap" otherwise its S4 -1ap duh...', QUITE UNMISTAKABLY drawing reference to the fact that it can be used against infantry as well, which is not only irrelevant to the point I was making, but also unnecessarily snarkily worded with the "duh"

.After I AGAIN point this out, you have somehow twisted it into "HURR DURR HAYWIRE IS NOT MEANT AS ANTI-TANK? HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT? ARE YOU SERIOUS?".

Buddy - I'm the one here talking about it wholly in the context of it being an anti-tank weapon and nothing else, YOU are the only one talking about it being non-AT. Seriously dude. Never EVER talk about another person's comprehension again. Yours is beyond horrific.

I've asked you countless times to stop quoting me with this garbage, it's clear you are paying that no heed, so it's only fair to warn I've approached an admin about your conduct. Have a nice day and please leave me alone.

Ok, well i cant handle this troll any longer, im blocking him, all he does it twist everyones words and trolls.

Can we please get back onto topic now?

Oh good god, thank the lord for that. I asked 5 times in this thread alone to stop quoting me to needless start arguments and completely twisting my words. Seems like approaching moderation was the only real answer. My pity to anyone else who finds themselves the target of this obsession.

The thread seems to have evolved - but I'd have thought 360-380 points for sword and board plus guns would be interesting. It would basically be in the same place as a gallant. On paper its clearly worse - but it might serve a purpose.

I don`t think that will make WK viable, but at least you could bring it in casual game with good friend.
I wish they could buff his weapons or give him some special rule, but i doubt it will happen soon. At least the new battle force with WK give me some hope for future.

Okay, so wraithhost gives the WK acess to a reroll to charge & +1 attack. That's significant, with more to be revealed I suspect.

Most of the time, WKs hit with their feet (even if they have the sword). In that case the stratagem to get additional attacks on 6s is a lot better than the +1 attack, for the same number of CPs.
Reroll charges is better, but it means your spiritseer has to keep up to provide the aura, which can be quite hard (especially if you fire and fade the WK).

Haywire isn't a thing because of strength anyway, or minus to AP.

The problem is that Knights have incredible resistance to AP weaponry. In reality Baneblades do, too, with a 2+ thanks to a 50 point Psyker.

There is no credible way to take down a 3++ knight, with a 6+++, and also the ability to stand back up. Doom or Jinx is DESIGNED to punish this kind of thing, where you have some super god mode OP unit.

Eldar's counter to this is Haywire and Doom. Haywire by itself isn't enough. Let's not act like it is.

fresus wrote:
Most of the time, WKs hit with their feet (even if they have the sword). In that case the stratagem to get additional attacks on 6s is a lot better than the +1 attack, for the same number of CPs.
Reroll charges is better, but it means your spiritseer has to keep up to provide the aura, which can be quite hard (especially if you fire and fade the WK).

I think Wraithblades will be better off with that +1 since it's per model. 5 attacks on the charge with them if you can get them to combat.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

fresus wrote:
Most of the time, WKs hit with their feet (even if they have the sword). In that case the stratagem to get additional attacks on 6s is a lot better than the +1 attack, for the same number of CPs.
Reroll charges is better, but it means your spiritseer has to keep up to provide the aura, which can be quite hard (especially if you fire and fade the WK).

I think Wraithblades will be better off with that +1 since it's per model. 5 attacks on the charge with them if you can get them to combat.

If Alaitoc changes from a negative to hit modifier to a bonus to an always on armor save, then WraithAxe become 2+/4++ with 3 wounds each. A full unit of them can get pretty nasty with fortune and some stratagem help.

That Wraith Host stuff is a bit boring and narrow - all seemingly aimed at close combat. Unfortunate. Hope there are a few other bits in there.

 grouchoben wrote:
Okay, so wraithhost gives the WK acess to a reroll to charge & +1 attack. That's significant, with more to be revealed I suspect.

Hopefully something for the shooty ones. or something to buff durability.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Haywire isn't a thing because of strength anyway, or minus to AP.

The problem is that Knights have incredible resistance to AP weaponry. In reality Baneblades do, too, with a 2+ thanks to a 50 point Psyker.

There is no credible way to take down a 3++ knight, with a 6+++, and also the ability to stand back up. Doom or Jinx is DESIGNED to punish this kind of thing, where you have some super god mode OP unit.

Eldar's counter to this is Haywire and Doom. Haywire by itself isn't enough. Let's not act like it is.

18 harlie bikes 1 shots a castellan with an average roll. 950ish points BUT it's too easy.

 Xenomancers wrote:
18 harlie bikes 1 shots a castellan with an average roll. 950ish points BUT it's too easy.

Twice the points cost investment too easy? Ya, ok.
If it were closer to the same cost, I'd agree, but if you have to invest almost half your army to take out less than 1/4 of your opponents, I can't agree that's "too easy"

3 Prisms using Focused fire mode and Linked Fire still can't drop a 4++ (let alone 3++) Knight per turn on average rolls without Jink being involved. And that's over 700pts + 1CP invested

-

 Elbows wrote:
That Wraith Host stuff is a bit boring and narrow - all seemingly aimed at close combat. Unfortunate. Hope there are a few other bits in there.

There will be two other stratagems plus the relic if it follows the format of the others.

The +1 attack is to the profile which makes the psytronome even better. Wraithaxes and Lords with just glaives hitting pretty damn hard.

Every formation so far has had:

Hard to classify each formation but so far I think you should expect a Warlord trait, 2+ stratagems, and a relic.

So clearly more coming for the Wraith Host.

We know one strategem and the warlord trait already So only real unknown is the relic and second Strategem.

Or more stratagems. Indominus Crusade has 5. Wraith Host might have several.

I think I'm particularly sour because I disagree with wraith units being blizzard-of-attacks in melee (hell, I disagree with Wraithblades even existing - based solely on the original fluff and lore of Wraithguard units). I even find the sword on a dreadnought a bit daft. Sadly I have a decent stock of wraith units which don't use close combat. So this whole detachment is likely a waste. Shame.

Indominus Crusade is SM, so it may be the only one with 5.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
18 harlie bikes 1 shots a castellan with an average roll. 950ish points BUT it's too easy.

Twice the points cost investment too easy? Ya, ok.
If it were closer to the same cost, I'd agree, but if you have to invest almost half your army to take out less than 1/4 of your opponents, I can't agree that's "too easy"

3 Prisms using Focused fire more and Linked Fire still can't drop a 4++ (let alone 3++) Knight per turn on average rolls without Jink being involved. And that's over 700pts + 1CP invested

-

Castellan is 600 (and it really should be 700).
3 Prisims averages 6 damage to a 3++ knight - that costs 480 and a CP. 12 linked fire prisms Averages less than 24 wounds (still alive) (plust if 6+++ against non mortals still has over 8 wounds left).

950 points of harlie bikes are more effecitve than 1920 points of fire prisms against a 3++ knight.
Clearly 3++ knights are a problem. Harlie bikes are too effective against invo save vehicals though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Okay, so wraithhost gives the WK acess to a reroll to charge & +1 attack. That's significant, with more to be revealed I suspect.

Hopefully something for the shooty ones. or something to buff durability.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Haywire isn't a thing because of strength anyway, or minus to AP.

The problem is that Knights have incredible resistance to AP weaponry. In reality Baneblades do, too, with a 2+ thanks to a 50 point Psyker.

There is no credible way to take down a 3++ knight, with a 6+++, and also the ability to stand back up. Doom or Jinx is DESIGNED to punish this kind of thing, where you have some super god mode OP unit.

Eldar's counter to this is Haywire and Doom. Haywire by itself isn't enough. Let's not act like it is.

18 harlie bikes 1 shots a castellan with an average roll. 950ish points BUT it's too easy.

Lol what surprise 900 pts anti-vehicle can kill 1 600 pts vehicle. Really shocking

That's because a 3++ on a big tank is silly.

2k points of Marines (with *boltguns* do:
~153x2x(2/3)(1/6)(1/3)(5/6), or about 14 wounds
2k points of LasPreds do about
~10x4x(2/3)(2/3)(1/3)(5/6)x3.5, or about 17 wounds

The point is, a 3++ on the Knight and any-weapon-can-wound-anything makes "normal" Anti-Tank (as in, decent AP high S low RoF) not much better than anti-chaff at taking down Knights.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Clearly 3++ knights are a problem. Harlie bikes are too effective against invo save vehicals though.

And maybe that's the point. Giving everything a potential hard counter.
But I agree if the 3++ Knight gets "fixed" the effectiveness of Haywire Harlies should be toned down

-