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By everthing you mean, faction wide including soups right?

Marin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Okay, so wraithhost gives the WK acess to a reroll to charge & +1 attack. That's significant, with more to be revealed I suspect.

Hopefully something for the shooty ones. or something to buff durability.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Haywire isn't a thing because of strength anyway, or minus to AP.

The problem is that Knights have incredible resistance to AP weaponry. In reality Baneblades do, too, with a 2+ thanks to a 50 point Psyker.

There is no credible way to take down a 3++ knight, with a 6+++, and also the ability to stand back up. Doom or Jinx is DESIGNED to punish this kind of thing, where you have some super god mode OP unit.

Eldar's counter to this is Haywire and Doom. Haywire by itself isn't enough. Let's not act like it is.

18 harlie bikes 1 shots a castellan with an average roll. 950ish points BUT it's too easy.

Lol what surprise 900 pts anti-vehicle can kill 1 600 pts vehicle. Really shocking

It's pretty surprising compared to the competition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Clearly 3++ knights are a problem. Harlie bikes are too effective against invo save vehicals though.

And maybe that's the point. Giving everything a potential hard counter.
But I agree if the 3++ Knight gets "fixed" the effectiveness of Haywire Harlies should be toned down

-

Why is it D6 shots compared to the DE D3 shots? There is your problem. Not to mention - for a specialist weapon - it's great at killing chaf too. Str 4 ap-1 isn't a bad profile for killing infantry ether - so there is 0 downside to bringing it. I'm really suprised that the 4++ invo warlord trait hasn't been fixed yet (all they need to do is state that it is a maximum 4++)

 Xenomancers wrote:

Why is it D6 shots compared to the DE D3 shots? There is your problem. Not to mention - for a specialist weapon - it's great at killing chaf too. Str 4 ap-1 isn't a bad profile for killing infantry ether - so there is 0 downside to bringing it. I'm really suprised that the 4++ invo warlord trait hasn't been fixed yet (all they need to do is state that it is a maximum 4++)

Yeah, I can agree with that, but it's likely due to Harlies only have like 3-4 total non-Character units in the first place. Those units have to do more work.

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 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Why is it D6 shots compared to the DE D3 shots? There is your problem. Not to mention - for a specialist weapon - it's great at killing chaf too. Str 4 ap-1 isn't a bad profile for killing infantry ether - so there is 0 downside to bringing it. I'm really suprised that the 4++ invo warlord trait hasn't been fixed yet (all they need to do is state that it is a maximum 4++)

Yeah, I can agree with that, but it's likely due to Harlies only have like 3-4 total non-Character units in the first place. Those units have to do more work.

The only other heavy weapon in the Harlequin arsenal is the Prismatic Cannon, which is garbage. All ranges are 24 inches:
Assault D6 at S4/Ap-2/1
Assault D3 at S6/Ap-3/D3
Assault 1 at S8/Ap-4/D6

If that weapon were stronger (and say ignored invulnerable saves) then I would totally be on board with haywire going down to Assault 3. As it is, the Harlequin heavy weapon platform at its peak is effectively a melta weapon that doesn't even have the melta rule.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Why is it D6 shots compared to the DE D3 shots? There is your problem. Not to mention - for a specialist weapon - it's great at killing chaf too. Str 4 ap-1 isn't a bad profile for killing infantry ether - so there is 0 downside to bringing it. I'm really suprised that the 4++ invo warlord trait hasn't been fixed yet (all they need to do is state that it is a maximum 4++)

The DE and Quin weapons are different. Scourges get Haywire Blasters, less shots but they are cheaper. Skyweavers get Haywire Cannons, potentially more shots for higher cost. They aren't supposed to be the same weapon profile, because they aren't the same weapon.

Dropping the Skyweavers Haywire to D3 would fix the 'problem', if there is one, but it would also make souping manditory for Harlequins to be anything other than a laughing stock in the current meta.

Gotta keep in mind that outside of Characters, Harlequins really only have 3 units, Troupes, Skyweavers, and Voidweavers. Voidweavers are ok at best, not great, overpriced and you can't take squadrons anymore so at most can only be a minor supplement to the roster due to Rule of Three. Troupes get the job done usually, but after the nerf to Flip-belts their utility in assault is diminished. Skyweavers are good, and fill the huge gap in the Harlequins roster in adequate range anti-vehicle shooting and some anti-horde, they're expensive though.

Nerfing Skyweavers wouldn't have the same impact as nerfing Dark Reapers or Ravagers, those Codexes have piles of other units to draw from, nerfing Skyweavers is basically nerfing a full third of an entire codex. An equivalent nerf in Craftworlds would be to nerf Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, Windriders, Vipers, and Warp Spiders (the entire Fast Attack section), all at the same time.

"Not to mention - for a specialist weapon - it's great at killing chaf too. Str 4 ap-1 isn't a bad profile for killing infantry ether - so there is 0 downside to bringing it."
If 45ppm models with 3.5xStr4 AP-1 is great at killing chaff, you should switch to Marines - their Primaris do it even better!

Bharring wrote:
"Not to mention - for a specialist weapon - it's great at killing chaf too. Str 4 ap-1 isn't a bad profile for killing infantry ether - so there is 0 downside to bringing it."
If 45ppm models with 3.5xStr4 AP-1 is great at killing chaff, you should switch to Marines - their Primaris do it even better!

Damn, my SoB HB Ret unit must be god then b.c with AoF and a Canoness i get 24 shots re-rolling 1's that +1 Str over Bolt Rifles!

You guys do realize this is a multi roll CC unit that does flat 2 damage in CC with ap -2 and 4 (likely 5) attacks each...that can fall back and shoot and assault. Only a fraction of the points are in shooting. You'd figure most of it goes into having a 22" advance move - having a 4++ with 3 W - and base -1 to hit.

Quinn bikers are a complete package of too much loaded on to 1 unit and do everything well. Including being the best unit in the game for killing titans. Then when it's done with titans it has no problem clearing chaff infantry While being at completely safe range and or capping objectives.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You guys do realize this is a multi roll CC unit that does flat 2 damage in CC with ap -2 and 4 (likely 5) attacks each...that can fall back and shoot and assault.

Quinn bikers are a complete package of too much loaded on to 1 unit and do everything well. Including being the best unit in the game for killing titans.

Of course they are multi role, Harlequins have practically no unit selections. Every unit has to have multiple roles in the Harlequin codex or it doesn't work. The options aren't there.

Someone has to have 'the best unit in the game for killing titans', why can't it be the Harlequins? It's ok for Knights to have a weakness, it really is. They are also poor against a fair amount of things, and if you take too many of them you don't have the CPs to fuel their best abilities (like keeping them alive) and don't have enough boots on the ground to actually win missions.

And why likely 5 attacks? Since the Fly and flip-belt nerf Frozen Stars are a second tier masque. Soaring Spite and Silent Shroud are much more common.

Harlequins haven't done anything since the Soulburst nerf.

Their bikes are good, but the rest of the codex is just bad. Except the Solitare, that dude is a fething stud.

I have an issue with the fact that it's Mortal Wounds for haywire, morr because I just see Mortal Wounds as another round of ignore save invent new save GW logic, more than an actually necessary addition to the game.

Harley bikers on their own weren't were the compliant started it's the GW ignoring a bonkers interaction of rules. It's just an instant delete button for any non FNP vehicals. Like seriously 75% or more chance of MW and a 1.5 in 6 chance for D3

 Xenomancers wrote:
You guys do realize this is a multi roll CC unit that does flat 2 damage in CC with ap -2 and 4 (likely 5) attacks each...that can fall back and shoot and assault. Only a fraction of the points are in shooting. You'd figure most of it goes into having a 22" advance move - having a 4++ with 3 W - and base -1 to hit.

Quinn bikers are a complete package of too much loaded on to 1 unit and do everything well. Including being the best unit in the game for killing titans. Then when it's done with titans it has no problem clearing chaff infantry While being at completely safe range and or capping objectives.

From which bag of tricks are you pulling these bonus attacks? A Skyweaver is 3 attacks base, which can get to 4 on the charge if the Masque is Frozen Stars. Additionally, the Zephyrglaive is only +1 Str which means they strike at Str 4. Given the speed differences between them and a Troupe Master, they aren't likely to benefit from the re-roll wounds aura in the first two turns. Also, that -1 to hit is only against shooting attacks.

Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

Besides, Haywire has been Mortal Wounds for Vehicles, more or less, for a couple editions before 8th.

 Marmatag wrote:
Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

Why do you think it's just a knights issue, it sucks to play against with anything with the vehicle keyword, Hammerheads, Stormsurge etc and delete, repulsive or Landraider or even a spartan, deleted.

Ice_can wrote:
I have an issue with the fact that it's Mortal Wounds for haywire, morr because I just see Mortal Wounds as another round of ignore save invent new save GW logic, more than an actually necessary addition to the game.

Harley bikers on their own weren't were the compliant started it's the GW ignoring a bonkers interaction of rules. It's just an instant delete button for any non FNP vehicals. Like seriously 75% or more chance of MW and a 1.5 in 6 chance for D3

A unit of 6 will average 21 shots (3.5 x 6) which will cause an average of 14 hits (due to hitting on 3+). Of those hits, an average of 7 will be wounds, 2.3333 of which will be 6's. So you're taking 5 MWs, + 4.66 MW (2.33xd3) And the knight has to make two 4+ armor saves. Roughly 10.5 wounds is not an instant delete....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

Why do you think it's just a knights issue, it sucks to play against with anything with the vehicle keyword, Hammerheads, Stormsurge etc and delete, repulsive or Landraider or even a spartan, deleted.

See above. Any vehicle that is T8 with a 3+ armor save is taking an average of 10.5 wounds. Hardly a delete button.

 Marmatag wrote:
Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

On one knight with one half of the knight houses. And if you're bringing elder soup you'll probably be able to use agents of vect to stop that anyway.

So you pay 1 CP to strip more CP from your opponent? Doesn't that make it a bigger net win for the IK?

 mokoshkana wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I have an issue with the fact that it's Mortal Wounds for haywire, morr because I just see Mortal Wounds as another round of ignore save invent new save GW logic, more than an actually necessary addition to the game.

Harley bikers on their own weren't were the compliant started it's the GW ignoring a bonkers interaction of rules. It's just an instant delete button for any non FNP vehicals. Like seriously 75% or more chance of MW and a 1.5 in 6 chance for D3

A unit of 6 will average 21 shots (3.5 x 6) which will cause an average of 14 hits (due to hitting on 3+). Of those hits, an average of 7 will be wounds, 2.3333 of which will be 6's. So you're taking 5 MWs, + 4.66 MW (2.33xd3) And the knight has to make two 4+ armor saves. Roughly 10.5 wounds is not an instant delete....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

Why do you think it's just a knights issue, it sucks to play against with anything with the vehicle keyword, Hammerheads, Stormsurge etc and delete, repulsive or Landraider or even a spartan, deleted.

See above. Any vehicle that is T8 with a 3+ armor save is taking an average of 10.5 wounds. Hardly a delete button.

No your conversion rate to MW for Doom + Haywire is way off its
HW IS base 50% conversion rate with Doom its 75% so those 14 hits become 10.5 will be wounds, 3.5 of which will be 6's. So you're taking 7 MWs, + 7 MW. I have no idea why your even bringing up the units save as they don't get saves against MW no-one does thats the objectionable part of the MW-FNP save cycle.

Because on a 6 to wound, a T8 3+ vehicle takes the d3 MW, but also takes an AP-1 wound from the S4 profile.

Conversion rate is actually 4/6 MW/roll without rerolls. You average 1 MW for a 4 or 5, or 2 MW for a 6, otherwise 0, for 4MW out of 6 chances.

Bharring wrote:
So you pay 1 CP to strip more CP from your opponent? Doesn't that make it a bigger net win for the IK?

Yeah, especially since even Eldar soup has what? 10CPs on average for the whole game. So the IK player spends less than a 10th of his CPs to remove 1/3 of the Eldars. Seems like a win for the IK player

-

Bharring wrote:
Because on a 6 to wound, a T8 3+ vehicle takes the d3 MW, but also takes an AP-1 wound from the S4 profile.

Conversion rate is actually 4/6 MW/roll without rerolls. You average 1 MW for a 4 or 5, or 2 MW for a 6, otherwise 0, for 4MW out of 6 chances.

Then get to reroll for doom but again I don't think Haywire is the issue its stacking unintended consequences from allies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You guys do realize this is a multi roll CC unit that does flat 2 damage in CC with ap -2 and 4 (likely 5) attacks each...that can fall back and shoot and assault. Only a fraction of the points are in shooting. You'd figure most of it goes into having a 22" advance move - having a 4++ with 3 W - and base -1 to hit.

Quinn bikers are a complete package of too much loaded on to 1 unit and do everything well. Including being the best unit in the game for killing titans. Then when it's done with titans it has no problem clearing chaff infantry While being at completely safe range and or capping objectives.

Yeah you also know its an addition 6pts per model and they only have 3 attacks hitting on 3+ with 0 re-rolls at S4, the leader Oh wait, they dont get leaders in units....

I take it you never actually melee with them before, b.c they are mediocre at it. 2D isnt very good when you have low attacks, and low str, its good to help kill off Marines thats about it.

A lot of players arnt even taking the Zephyrglaives anymore, or at least just a couple per 6.

I got happy about a thread about the Wraithknight, and maybe getting some warm fuzzies about it working with the Wraithhost formation previewed today....

Then I read and saw it was a complaint thread about Harlequins and Imperial Knights.

Worst bait-n-switch ever.

Ice_can wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I have an issue with the fact that it's Mortal Wounds for haywire, morr because I just see Mortal Wounds as another round of ignore save invent new save GW logic, more than an actually necessary addition to the game.

Harley bikers on their own weren't were the compliant started it's the GW ignoring a bonkers interaction of rules. It's just an instant delete button for any non FNP vehicals. Like seriously 75% or more chance of MW and a 1.5 in 6 chance for D3

A unit of 6 will average 21 shots (3.5 x 6) which will cause an average of 14 hits (due to hitting on 3+). Of those hits, an average of 7 will be wounds, 2.3333 of which will be 6's. So you're taking 5 MWs, + 4.66 MW (2.33xd3) And the knight has to make two 4+ armor saves. Roughly 10.5 wounds is not an instant delete....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

Why do you think it's just a knights issue, it sucks to play against with anything with the vehicle keyword, Hammerheads, Stormsurge etc and delete, repulsive or Landraider or even a spartan, deleted.

See above. Any vehicle that is T8 with a 3+ armor save is taking an average of 10.5 wounds. Hardly a delete button.

No your conversion rate to MW for Doom + Haywire is way off its
HW IS base 50% conversion rate with Doom its 75% so those 14 hits become 10.5 will be wounds, 3.5 of which will be 6's. So you're taking 7 MWs, + 7 MW. I have no idea why your even bringing up the units save as they don't get saves against MW no-one does thats the objectionable part of the MW-FNP save cycle.

Skyweavers don't come stock with Doom. That power isn't from the Harlequin codex. If you want to complain about soup, then do so.

 kastelen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Knights still ignore mortal wounds on a 5+ for 1CP.

Haywire mortal wounds are literally a way to drop them to their original 5++ save.

Can we please stop acting like Knights have a glaring weakness?

On one knight with one half of the knight houses. And if you're bringing elder soup you'll probably be able to use agents of vect to stop that anyway.

Absolutely clownish reply, all Knights are mechanicus for obvious reasons, and also, no one vects that when the Knight can come back to life. That is the stratagem you cancel.

There is no case to be made for anything other than House Cheeseball Stay Alive and House Rerolololol Ones

I'm seeing many sources saying the WK is 315pts base before wargear.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm seeing many sources saying the WK is 315pts base before wargear.

Hmm at 315 base, if the wargear remains at current cost it's still overpriced.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm seeing many sources saying the WK is 315pts base before wargear.

Hmm at 315 base, if the wargear remains at current cost it's still overpriced.

Well i dont trust this source so that why i didnt place it, someone is saying 90 for Suncannon and shield (Im not saying he is wrong, i just dont know him is all), so 405 for Suncannon/shield WK.

Edit: Added total

Tyranid Shockcannons deal Mortal Wounds to vehicles on a 4+ to wound, 6+ does D3. Assault, Range 24" D3 shots. Otherwise S7 -1AP D3 damage. Mortals happen in addition to normal damage. Pretty good anti-Knight, but I'm too lazy to do the math in comparison to the Harlies.

Actually, no. Shock Cannons are pretty awesome, averaging something like 8 Mortals for a full squad of 6 firing if I'm doing it right. And they have a fire twice strat.