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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

So has the Chapter Tactic of DA (And GK) been improved like all the others for Space Marines or it is still the same?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC Letterbombs have something like a 97% chance of making an 8" charge (+1" to charges from Instrument, 3D6 from banner, reroll charges). It doesn't get much more stable than that.

Honestly, this is sounding more like the problem is, as pointed out above, that Orks struggle against 2+ save units and could do with more and/or better options to counter them. Various Imperium armies wouldn't struggle to deal with what is effectively 10 TH/SS Terminators, Chaos has a bunch of ways of countering them, Eldar has counters, and so on.


Orks have plenty of ways to deal with that including sheer weight of attacks, which is the bane of all terminators.

If someone wants to stick to Evil Sunz then they shouldn't be taking Lootas and complaining about them.


Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




The GK ones have been an improvment.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.


When you factor in pistols, big choppa, tankbuster bombs, etc you're likely looking at 4 - 140 points killed by a 210 point unit.

   
Made in gb
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Continuity wrote:
10 terminators fully in cover while still within 6'' of optimal charge target? Not likely

You want to know what you do about a problem if you don't take the solution to a problem? You...still have the problem I guess? But what does that prove?


This is some disingenuous arguing if ever I saw it.

DW Knights don't need to charge anything. They can be teleported into the mid table and sit there all game, winning it [the game] for the DA player. They are a massive threat to anything in CC. They are very tanky and can be plonked on a mid-game objective virtually risk free. Sammael on Corvex is taken anyway, but cheaper options exist if he's too expensive (and he's only suggested because he has the re-roll charges ability, but CP can be used for that anyway). He, and the other RW units are extremely mobile so can be virtually anywhere you need by Turn 2. There's also always the option of taking normal DW Termies and shooting said screen on arrival before charging the juicy targets behind. 40 Storm Bolter shots will kill 18-19 Grots. Take one or two models in the unit with TH and SS to soak up shots with the 3++.

You present Lootas and Grots as a solution - how many points and CP do I need to invest in this "solution"? How many Grots do you recommend to screen? Why hasn't the DA player destroyed/severely weakened the Grot Screen by T2? What happens if my Lootas can't draw LOS on the Knights? Why are the Knights dropping in an unfavourable position and not utilising the best part of the stratagem (they get to drop only 6" away from enemy units thus "normal" screening will be ineffective)?

I play Evil Sunz Orks so my Lootas don't reroll 1s to hit and they can't shoot twice. I did the maths for Bad Moonz Lootas because we always assume optimal conditions. And if your response is "just play Bad Moonz Lootas" you'll forgive me for telling DA (and all other Marine players) to "just play Iron Hands" if their particular sub faction is struggling.


They do 'just play as iron hands' which is the problem ironically, although your comparison spans 2 codex and a supplement vs within the same book.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.


When you factor in pistols, big choppa, tankbuster bombs, etc you're likely looking at 4 - 140 points killed by a 210 point unit.


You two absolutely have to tell me the secret of how you manage to keep a unit of 30 boyz in your deployment zone unharmed after two shooting and assault phases.
Anyone saying "hide out of LOS" has forfeited all his models and must gift them to the next ork player they meet.

2+ armor is zero problem for orks, we have tons of viable guns with decent AP now. Multi-wound models with high armor, toughness, invulnerable save and maybe even further layers of defense (FNP, half damage, character) are an issue because you can kill them with neither quantity nor quality.
If you indeed use the stratagem for wounding on 4+ only on them, I don't think there is anything but weird boyz or smashas in the ork codex that can efficiently do anything about them.

And let's not forget that the knights kill quite a number of orks back after losing getting charged, that flail is no joke.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.


When you factor in pistols, big choppa, tankbuster bombs, etc you're likely looking at 4 - 140 points killed by a 210 point unit.


You two absolutely have to tell me the secret of how you manage to keep a unit of 30 boyz in your deployment zone unharmed after two shooting and assault phases.
Anyone saying "hide out of LOS" has forfeited all his models and must gift them to the next ork player they meet.

2+ armor is zero problem for orks, we have tons of viable guns with decent AP now. Multi-wound models with high armor, toughness, invulnerable save and maybe even further layers of defense (FNP, half damage, character) are an issue because you can kill them with neither quantity nor quality.
If you indeed use the stratagem for wounding on 4+ only on them, I don't think there is anything but weird boyz or smashas in the ork codex that can efficiently do anything about them.

And let's not forget that the knights kill quite a number of orks back after losing getting charged, that flail is no joke.


Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.

They're coming to you after all.

Also, smashas dont have a to wound roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/18 17:40:35


   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Orks can't do nothing against marines. Just a squad of 10 intercessors hitting at -1 agaisnt a Da Jumped Ork Squad of 30 with rerrolls for nearly everything kills a good bunch of them.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galas wrote:
Orks can't do nothing against marines. Just a squad of 10 intercessors hitting at -1 agaisnt a Da Jumped Ork Squad of 30 with rerrolls for nearly everything kills a good bunch of them.


And what about this is different from before the supplements?

   
Made in fr
Brainy Zoanthrope



France

From the info I gathered around, the RW part of the DA is way stronger than the greenwing and DW.
The RW warlord traits are great, especially the last one who give a 12 inch move before the beginning of the first turn (basically mean you can charge first turn with black knights). Some of the combo seems absurb to be fair - Talonmaster with the right relic and the first warlord trait hit at +1, with +12 inch range (32 inch 12 shot of autocanon) and gives an aura around him that gives the ability to move and shoot without malus for his heavy weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/18 19:16:07


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.

Great advice, as usual.

Also, smashas dont have a to wound roll.

That's kind of my point?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.

They're coming to you after all.

Also, smashas dont have a to wound roll.

Here we go again with the advice from a player who doesn't know the faction.

"Fluff out screens"?
"Boyz to the back"?
"Trade Guns"?

Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).

The problem, as well you know, is if the Ork player is firing his Smasha Guns against DW Knights that have dropped in his lines, he is not firing them at other, more valid and valuable targets.

If Orks had an answer to Marines we'd see them in the competitive meta. Instead, what we've seen is them virtually disappear (along with GSC) from the competitive meta. Given that virtually all of the DA guns will outrange the Ork weapons, I'm struggling to see how anything will be different here.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).

Agree with everything else, I'd just like to point out that a greenwing foot captain will never be anywhere near death wing knights.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in fr
Brainy Zoanthrope



France

The deathwing knights are good but the problem is they lack mobility and there's no way to redeploy them. If they get to a zone and smash a group of unit, after that they're basically a useless bunch (and a pretty expensive useless bunch).
So imo playing against them does not even require them to be killed, especially if your army does not have one big threat that the knights will take as a target..
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Jidmah wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).

Agree with everything else, I'd just like to point out that a greenwing foot captain will never be anywhere near death wing knights.

You're right. Unless something has gone horribly wrong for the Ork player/right for the DA player it's very, very unlikely.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Anyone else amused by the admission in today's pre-order WHC article that the latest PA has failed to include to the initial points cost for the new character?

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

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Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






WhiteDog wrote:
The deathwing knights are good but the problem is they lack mobility and there's no way to redeploy them. If they get to a zone and smash a group of unit, after that they're basically a useless bunch (and a pretty expensive useless bunch).
So imo playing against them does not even require them to be killed, especially if your army does not have one big threat that the knights will take as a target..

Yea I think a squad of normal DW Termies might be a better option all things considered.

Alternatively the DA player will use the DW Knights to hold the midfield as a "can't touch this" threat.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.

They're coming to you after all.

Also, smashas dont have a to wound roll.

Here we go again with the advice from a player who doesn't know the faction.

"Fluff out screens"?
"Boyz to the back"?
"Trade Guns"?

Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).

The problem, as well you know, is if the Ork player is firing his Smasha Guns against DW Knights that have dropped in his lines, he is not firing them at other, more valid and valuable targets.

If Orks had an answer to Marines we'd see them in the competitive meta. Instead, what we've seen is them virtually disappear (along with GSC) from the competitive meta. Given that virtually all of the DA guns will outrange the Ork weapons, I'm struggling to see how anything will be different here.


Sure guys. It's not like I don't play against them weekly. Keep on with the pity party.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/18 19:56:15


   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Canada

From the previews it seems that the designers came up with an update that that combines effectiveness, fluff and balance. As Bullyboy pointed out earlier, the choice of Doctrine in play will not be a mono. You are genuinely trading something off depending on your build and that how it should be. There look to be some decent combinations in the book and they are not "point and click." I think that we can consider the WD article back in September as somewhat disconnected from the design studio. I guess ebay will be flooded by DA players who raced out and bought Centurions based on the article (jk - I don't think that anybody did). For those saying that Primaris Deathwing are against the lore, no Dark Angels are born into the DW. All are screened. We see that in play in War of Secrets. I am excited by the attention to DW and RW in the update. That bodes well for the future.

We'll see how it all plays out on the table. The DA are certainly improved, but I don't see them as IH level bonkers. I am looking forward to having Land Speeders with a point again. I've been running a Sammael and 2xTalonmaster team as my core in the new SM2.0 meta. That team just got quite a bit better with Devastator Doctrine, to include the increased range in that Doctrine and the Warlord trait to negate moving penalties. Looks like Sammael will not be the Warlord anymore. Might even bring some normal Land Speeders along.

As an aside, my RW bikes dissolve against Lootas, and they are needed to pull off that DW bomb. The 6" deepstrike looks fun, but it will be situational as well as tricky to pull off.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As an aside, my RW bikes dissolve against Lootas, and they are needed to pull off that DW bomb. The 6" deepstrike looks fun, but it will be situational as well as tricky to pull off.

Sammael can pull it off. Shouldn't be too hard to hide him from any threats for a turn before dropping the DW bomb. The combo might be situational but I think it's a stretch to claim it's tricky to pull off.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

Well GMG has his review up ( https://youtu.be/ZwiV8xq7hNk ), and the leaks were missing a few minor details such as you can only use combined assault with ravenwing bike units, so no using land speeders to get past screens. The transhuman physiology aura is not an aura, it only applies to the warlord, which makes it somewhat less awesome. Deathwing got a stratagem that wasn't included in the leak (stand firm), where they can bump up their toughness by one, which is insane with fortress of shields, which gives the opponent a -1 to wound. So with Transhuman physiology they have ways to tank just about any kind of shots, go T-Human on high str (8+) attacks, Fortress on mid-strength (6+) attacks, or stand firm + fortress to make str 4 or less shots wound on sixes and str 5 wound on 5+. The bottom line is that with a 2+/3++, and the shenanigans you can pull with wound rolls, Deathwing knights are the games most durable terminators, at least while you have CP to spend.

Are the changes good enough to make Deathwing knights good, maybe, they have a solid delivery mechanism, with CP investment they are resistant to both mass small arms and big guns, and they have thunder hammers without a -1 to hit. The drawbacks are they do not have a reliable way past screens, they have a 5" movement, and no redeployment options. The biggest black mark is that they are CP hungry, I'd rather invest CP in offense as opposed to defense, because it's harder to snowball off of defense. So I think my preference will be to use my CP on Ravenwing because they have good offense and use the Deathwing for counter-punching. I also can't imagine Deathwing knights being super effective against Tau, or Eldar, Necrons, or any shoot and skedaddle style list. They will do work against marines though, who castle but don't have the mobility to move the castle away fast enough, and marines would have a hard time throwing enough bodies at the DWK to tarpit them.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





In my experience the biggest downside of DW Knights is that they do not carry any guns, not even grenades. Unless they charge, they kill absolutely nothing, unlike Blightlords which keep riddling enemy units with 24" storm bolters even if they don't charge.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Canada

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As an aside, my RW bikes dissolve against Lootas, and they are needed to pull off that DW bomb. The 6" deepstrike looks fun, but it will be situational as well as tricky to pull off.

Sammael can pull it off. Shouldn't be too hard to hide him from any threats for a turn before dropping the DW bomb. The combo might be situational but I think it's a stretch to claim it's tricky to pull off.


Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Are there mentions of Successors in the book at all?
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
   
Made in gb
Brutal Butcher





 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Are there mentions of Successors in the book at all?


Yes. Basically no change from the Codex. No access to Custom Traits, they have to use the DA trait.

Essentially there's still no rules reason not just to use the normal Dark Angel's rules for your Successor and paint them however you want.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.


funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





Not Online!!! wrote:
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?


You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.

Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.

Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?


You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.

Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.

Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.


the problem with strats it they're unevenly designed, some strats are things almost nesscary for a unit to work, (this was partiuclarly true with some of the strats in older books) other strats are very powerful and should eaither cost points, or be a "one time use ability" that folks are managing to spam. mono faction bonuses might help with that as if the most powerful army is a mono faction it means GW can plan around Guard having more CPs then custodes and making the strats power level reflect this.
   
 
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