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Made in gb
Norn Queen






To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294 +++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


I disagree with them being clunky, in my opinion, they're much better looking then old marines.

Thing about old Marines is they're designed to be cross compatable with most older kits. this is, largely a good thing and makes marines pretty damn customizable, but at the same time it did limit what they could do with them. I suspect Primaris Marines where intended, in part to allow them to essentially "reboot" their entire approuch to marines and revamp the look with modern mini design techniques, etc.

by not just saying "yes they're new tac marines" though GW enables those who value the old modular marines to keep using them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/16 11:27:23


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

My only problem with the Primaris lore is that it gives a lore justification for never giving my tacticals two wounds. I love my tacticals and use 30 of them in every game I play. I just wish they could survive more than one turn of shooting.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






BrianDavion wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


I disagree with them being clunky, in my opinion, they're much better looking then old marines.

Thing about old Marines is they're designed to be cross compatable with most older kits. this is, largely a good thing and makes marines pretty damn customizable, but at the same time it did limit what they could do with them. I suspect Primaris Marines where intended, in part to allow them to essentially "reboot" their entire approuch to marines and revamp the look with modern mini design techniques, etc.

by not just saying "yes they're new tac marines" though GW enables those who value the old modular marines to keep using them.
Nothing would stop older models being used. Old terminators and old metal dreadnoughts are used with no problem.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294 +++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Tygre wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 captain collius wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.


This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.


GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.


Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.

It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.

It's a bit of a weird plot point when Primaris have their own Inner Circle that a Chaplain made. Apparently he needed Azraels permission to get them into the Inner Circle but not to create a new Circle. (At least that's how I remember War of Secrets ending, hopefully I'm wrong.)

As for the rules I was very interested then I remembered that DA characters can't use bikes outside of Legends and stopped caring again.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.

That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

Blastaar wrote:Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
As others have said, no, it's not.

We're explicitly told and shown that Chapters have the capability to create their own Primaris independently. The Ultramarines (Brother Pollandus), the Blood Ravens (explained in the WD short they got that they would be given their own Primaris-making tech), and the Emperor's Spears, in their eponymous book.

How else would a Chapter like the Spears, who are nearly completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium, and only received the second-hand news of Guilliman's return and their own tech to make Primaris Marines, be able to make Primaris Marines if they relied on the process being done from outside the Chapter? Hell, we literally watch them, in that same book, turn a Marine into a Primaris without needing to go back to Mars or any AdMech base.

Further reinforcing the point that most people's problems and hatred of Primaris lore actually comes from a lack of information, and an unwillingness to listen/expose themselves to lore that might correct themselves. Which is fine, we shouldn't expect people to read every single snippet of lore that comes out, because not everyone cares, and that's 100% fine. But claiming false stuff, in the face of lots of evidence to the contrary? It's more than a little frustrating.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
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Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.

That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).


I'd say they'll be around until the molds break. No reason to stop re-supplying your stores with stuff that gets bought.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Blastaar wrote:Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
As others have said, no, it's not.

We're explicitly told and shown that Chapters have the capability to create their own Primaris independently. The Ultramarines (Brother Pollandus), the Blood Ravens (explained in the WD short they got that they would be given their own Primaris-making tech), and the Emperor's Spears, in their eponymous book.

How else would a Chapter like the Spears, who are nearly completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium, and only received the second-hand news of Guilliman's return and their own tech to make Primaris Marines, be able to make Primaris Marines if they relied on the process being done from outside the Chapter? Hell, we literally watch them, in that same book, turn a Marine into a Primaris without needing to go back to Mars or any AdMech base.

Further reinforcing the point that most people's problems and hatred of Primaris lore actually comes from a lack of information, and an unwillingness to listen/expose themselves to lore that might correct themselves. Which is fine, we shouldn't expect people to read every single snippet of lore that comes out, because not everyone cares, and that's 100% fine. But claiming false stuff, in the face of lots of evidence to the contrary? It's more than a little frustrating.


Yep. Devastation of Baal has Roboute hand the DA a pile of Primaris Transformation Pods [not the official term] and leave.
Its completely clear that they can just toss anyone they pick into the pods and tadah... Primaris!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/16 14:26:40


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Spoiler:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Blastaar wrote:Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
As others have said, no, it's not.

We're explicitly told and shown that Chapters have the capability to create their own Primaris independently. The Ultramarines (Brother Pollandus), the Blood Ravens (explained in the WD short they got that they would be given their own Primaris-making tech), and the Emperor's Spears, in their eponymous book.

How else would a Chapter like the Spears, who are nearly completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium, and only received the second-hand news of Guilliman's return and their own tech to make Primaris Marines, be able to make Primaris Marines if they relied on the process being done from outside the Chapter? Hell, we literally watch them, in that same book, turn a Marine into a Primaris without needing to go back to Mars or any AdMech base.

Further reinforcing the point that most people's problems and hatred of Primaris lore actually comes from a lack of information, and an unwillingness to listen/expose themselves to lore that might correct themselves. Which is fine, we shouldn't expect people to read every single snippet of lore that comes out, because not everyone cares, and that's 100% fine. But claiming false stuff, in the face of lots of evidence to the contrary? It's more than a little frustrating.


Clearly Cawl hand crafts every single Primaris marine
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 fraser1191 wrote:
Clearly Cawl hand crafts every single Primaris marine


They're *artisanal*
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.

These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.


I am personally super psyched about trying these new rules.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Interesting new stratagem from TS supplement.

1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.

This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?

For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.

In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.

These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.

Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/16 20:23:39


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
Interesting new stratagem from TS supplement.

1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.

This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?

For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.

In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.

These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.

Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.


Sort of, but not really. Duty Eternal takes the cake, but then mostly because of Levis. Tremor Shells and Transhuman stand out, character dreads, stacking WL traits, etc.

   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Xenomancers wrote:
Interesting new stratagem from TS supplement.

1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.

This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?

For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.

In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.

These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.

Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.

I don't see it. Salamanders get votlw+, all codex chapters can boost chaplains but only wb can boost dark apostles, loyalist astartes are apparently the only astartes with transhuman physiology etc. I think you're reading a bit much into it.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 BaconCatBug wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


I disagree with them being clunky, in my opinion, they're much better looking then old marines.

Thing about old Marines is they're designed to be cross compatable with most older kits. this is, largely a good thing and makes marines pretty damn customizable, but at the same time it did limit what they could do with them. I suspect Primaris Marines where intended, in part to allow them to essentially "reboot" their entire approuch to marines and revamp the look with modern mini design techniques, etc.

by not just saying "yes they're new tac marines" though GW enables those who value the old modular marines to keep using them.
Nothing would stop older models being used. Old terminators and old metal dreadnoughts are used with no problem.


yes but this way I can still BUY the old stuff, if I want to kitbash a Marine Leuitenant with jump pack, stomr shield, sword etc, I can still buy all the various kits etc. not saying it's their only reason, but GW could well be using Primaris Marines to double dip.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Interesting new stratagem from TS supplement.

1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.

This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?

For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.

In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.

These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.

Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.

I don't see it. Salamanders get votlw+, all codex chapters can boost chaplains but only wb can boost dark apostles, loyalist astartes are apparently the only astartes with transhuman physiology etc. I think you're reading a bit much into it.

How am I reading to much into it? It is literally the same weapon under ideal conditions with a 10 man intercessor limitation compared to a 20 man rubric and 10 man terminator limitation. The weaker strat costs more...Transhuman cost 2 CP to be good against certain weapons and useless vs the slaneesh stratagem that give you FNP which makes you more durable against everything. The main premise is chaos stratagems are seeming to cost less and do more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Interesting new stratagem from TS supplement.

1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.

This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?

For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.

In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.

These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.

Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.


Sort of, but not really. Duty Eternal takes the cake, but then mostly because of Levis. Tremor Shells and Transhuman stand out, character dreads, stacking WL traits, etc.
Chaos don't even have thunderfire cannons. How is that relevant? Chaos can make any infantry unit shoot twice if slaneesh affecting massive units - marines can make a thunderfire shoot twice. Again - advantage chaos. Plus they have an offensively oriented Dread strat that lets you shoot twice at the closest target. I assure you the half damage loses out against duty eternal if 2 dreads one loyal and 1 heretic got into a 1v1 brawl because you always round up. 5's still do 3 and 3's still do 2 damage so you aren't always getting half - but you are always getting double the shots.

Lets just see here TS can make a 350 point term squad shoot twice - can then make 380 point combi plas shoot twice and shoot twice with a hellbrute. Compared to a marines player which can at most make a TFC and Intercessors squad shot twice - the chaos player is getting WAY more out of those stratagems. Tremor shell is also useless vs fly targets - useless vs vehicals - useless if your opponent doesn't even need to move. Not really helpful if your main threat is eldar shinning spears or custodian jetbikes or an imperial knight.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/16 22:39:05


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

Sunny Side Up wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.

That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).


'All Space Marines have crossed the Rubicon! Now the codex will be Primaris only. But don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Marine armies, using the Legends rules!'.

It'll be that easy, and it's inevitable. When even the fluff is pointing towards it, with Primaris being accepted by previously-reluctant chapters and taking on their chapter traits (eg geneseed flaws), I don't see how you could infer that old Marines will be around forever. They might keep the molds going and support them with Legends rules, but at this point it's clear that Primaris are where GW is headed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 00:02:44


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 catbarf wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.

That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).


'All Space Marines have crossed the Rubicon! Now the codex will be Primaris only. But don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Marine armies, using the Legends rules!'.

It'll be that easy, and it's inevitable. When even the fluff is pointing towards it, with Primaris being accepted by previously-reluctant chapters and taking on their chapter traits (eg geneseed flaws), I don't see how you could infer that old Marines will be around forever. They might keep the molds going and support them with Legends rules, but at this point it's clear that Primaris are where GW is headed.


I doubt it'll happen. remember, old marines still outsell some entire xenos factions. GW is, first and foremost about making money, they have to be, they have shareholders to respond to.
There's no reason to retire old Marines while they're still a money making army. Before anyone comes up and screams about Bretonnia or Tomb Kings being proof GW will squat things I'm pretty sure tomb kings and bretonnia where two of the least popular armies at the time.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






That's the fundamental issue though. If I say, correctly, that old marines are being replaced by Primaris - ignorant people scream and shout and say "NUH UH, THEY STILL EXIST!", as if I am stating GW is going to terminate the classic marine line in the next year and erase their existence from codices. No one has ever said that, not now, and not two years ago.

The people opposing that reality aren't responding to what people are saying, but disregarding the reality of the future of classic marines.

1) You won't get new classic marines outside of perhaps a few characters (even this is doubtful), and maybe some more Horus Heresy plastics - which could be a nice way to keep older players attracted to them.
2) Primaris units will outperform classic marines over time to the point where classic marines become less useful/common/purchased.
3) In a long time...and I mean 5-10-15 years classic marine kits will disappear from shelves.
4) These units will exist in codices for a long time, but they'll be out of stock, or discontinued, and will receive increasingly less support (particularly if the model lines are removed).
5) Marines make money, but classic marine kits make a lot less as they age and are upstaged by new kits, namely Primaris ones. GW would love to reduce SKUs, storage, shipping and factory space producing kits whenever possible. There is zero reason to sell an old dreadnought from 10-15 years ago if they're not selling as much as new fancy dreadnoughts, etc.

No one has ever said that GW is going to fire sale classic marines or hit the kill switch on the classic marine line all of a sudden. However this doesn't stop people from shouting and arguing as if someone did say that. Classic marines will slowly but surely be invalidated, and eventually discontinued. That's just a fact.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 04:51:44


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Catulle wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Clearly Cawl hand crafts every single Primaris marine


They're *artisanal*


Bespoke.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Elbows wrote:
That's the fundamental issue though. If I say, correctly, that old marines are being replaced by Primaris - ignorant people scream and shout and say "NUH UH, THEY STILL EXIST!", as if I am stating GW is going to terminate the classic marine line in the next year and erase their existence from codices. No one has ever said that, not now, and not two years ago.

The people opposing that reality aren't responding to what people are saying, but disregarding the reality of the future of classic marines.

1) You won't get new classic marines outside of perhaps a few characters (even this is doubtful), and maybe some more Horus Heresy plastics - which could be a nice way to keep older players attracted to them.
2) Primaris units will outperform classic marines over time to the point where classic marines become less useful/common/purchased.
3) In a long time...and I mean 5-10-15 years classic marine kits will disappear from shelves.
4) These units will exist in codices for a long time, but they'll be out of stock, or discontinued, and will receive increasingly less support (particularly if the model lines are removed).
5) Marines make money, but classic marine kits make a lot less as they age and are upstaged by new kits, namely Primaris ones. GW would love to reduce SKUs, storage, shipping and factory space producing kits whenever possible. There is zero reason to sell an old dreadnought from 10-15 years ago if they're not selling as much as new fancy dreadnoughts, etc.

No one has ever said that GW is going to fire sale classic marines or hit the kill switch on the classic marine line all of a sudden. However this doesn't stop people from shouting and arguing as if someone did say that. Classic marines will slowly but surely be invalidated, and eventually discontinued. That's just a fact.


ohh sure, but that's a distant future thing, meanwhile some people acted like old marines being squatted was imminant etc. maybe they'll be phased out in 15 years time but by then, I wonder how many of us will be playing 40k?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






That's my point though - no one said that. No one argued that suddenly marines would disappear overnight. Is it smart to start building a classic marine army? Probably not, unless you're comfortable not getting any more releases and you're okay with the existing line. Would I suggest someone start a classic marine army? Nope.

I never once saw anyone say it was going to happen suddenly, just that the writing is obviously on the wall.

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





on the other hand not getting any more releases can be kind of an advantage, no need to worry about your army being half complete and then GW putting out a new version of kit X that really clashes with your old one apperance wise. my current SM army is an all primaris army, but yeah I could see advantages to focusing on old skool marines right now

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 05:37:30


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






I concur, but not for a new player unless they're made very aware of what they're getting into. If anything buying up old marines could be very smart as they become cheaper on the used market, etc. Likewise, if you want to play retrohammer or oldhammer, all of that stuff is still useful/viable.

A lot of people (not myself) are hugely attracted to the idea of an ongoing "living" game, one where you get new releases etc. I don't personally care, I'd rather a better game - I don't need new stuff all the time, but it's a big deal to a lot of people. If anything marine players should be stoked...knowing they're just going to spoiled constantly with kits for the foreseeable future.

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





new stuff is a bit of a double edged sword to me, I like getting new stuff but it can be hard if the new stuff is coming out before you're able to finish assmbling and painting the old stuff.

but yeah the price of old marines vs primaris is important to keep in mind too.

Let's compare prices a moment, we'll assume a basic demi company of 3 boxes of troops, 1 fast attack unit and 1 heavy support unit. with 2 transports to ferry about the unit and a heavy tank.

So for Old Marines that's 3 tac squad boxes, 1 assault marine box, 1 devestator box 2 rhinos and a Land Raider.

Tac Squad Box Cost: 45 USDs
Assault Marine Box: 45 USDs
Devestator Box: 50 USDs
Rhino: 45 USDs
Land Raider: 80 USDs

Primaris Intercessors: 60 USDs
Primaris Inceptors 50 USDs
Primaris Hellblasters: 60 USDs
Impulsor: 70 USDs
Repulsor: 80 USDs


all told Primaris are GENERALLY more expensive by about 10-20 bucks more. that said, hellblasters are actually a better deal then devestators when you consider that hellblasters are 10 to a box and devestators are 5 to a box.

So.. totaling these lists up

Old Marines Demi Company: 400 USDs

Primaris Demi-Company: 510 USDs

so yeah, going with a old marines list saves you about 100 bucks. (although this reduces to about 60 if you decide to demand a second devestator box to make up for hellblasters being 10 to a box)

so the savings are there. partiuclarly with regards to tanks. as rhino base chassis tanks are, right now at least, cheaper.
course given the new sisters stuff I'd not be suprised to see a price increase on the rhino and it's cousins very soon

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Interesting new stratagem from TS supplement.

1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.

This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?

For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.

In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.

These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.

Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.


Remember though, the new TS double fire strat comes with the limitation that you cannot use it if you moved.

Probably most potent with pre-game infiltrated Rubrics, but you wouldn’t be able to use it on SOCT after deep-strike and your opponent measuring from your Rubrics, forcing them to move to shoot (a worthwhile target) can also prevent the strat.
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






BrianDavion wrote:

I doubt it'll happen. remember, old marines still outsell some entire xenos factions. GW is, first and foremost about making money, they have to be, they have shareholders to respond to.
There's no reason to retire old Marines while they're still a money making army. Before anyone comes up and screams about Bretonnia or Tomb Kings being proof GW will squat things I'm pretty sure tomb kings and bretonnia where two of the least popular armies at the time.

Can you provide those stats that show which xenos factions old marines sell more than? Can you also share your stats on old marines sales generally? Interested to know where you got this information, I'm sure you wouldn't just make something up that you claim with such conviction.

On topic - DA look very, very strong. Their range buff alone is insane. The only limiting factor will be how many stratagems and abilities are tied to Deathwing or Ravenwing.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

 Elbows wrote:
If anything marine players should be stoked...knowing they're just going to spoiled constantly with kits for the foreseeable future.


And by forseeable future you mean until GW no longer makes 40k.
   
 
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