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So my battles against the forces of chaos continue, but this time with some help from the emperors holy inquisition.
i scored some cheap grey knight terminators from a friend and painted them up real fast, gonna re-base them when secret weapon minis releases their new color injected bases, got my eyes on the "imperial halls" for the GKs.


My opponent had just finished a rather drawn out game of 9th with his son on the tau battlefield.





So we went for a simpler kill points game of 5th edition with our house rules


My force
marines-5th ed codex
.master of the forge + 4 servitors
.scout sniper team
.dread talon-X3 ironclad dreads
.doredeo dread (using my nuclear shrimp HURK walker)

Allied-grey knights-3rd ed codex
grand master with terminator retinue
allied callidus assassin.



His force
chaos 3.5 codex
.terminator lord-khorne
.word bearers chaplain/dark apostle
.kharn
.2x 8 berserkers in rhinos
.8 posessed
.land raider
.blood crushers(imported from 5th)
.helldrake(imported from 7th)

The start chaos side



imperial side



I won the roll off and made him go first. it was a bloody game all around. this like this happened-got a lucky hit on the heldrake and caused it to crash but it had already killed most of my assault squad. our game only lasted about an hour and a half, in that time he had lost kharn, 2 berserker squads, their rhinos, blood crushers, a few of his possessed and the helldrake.

By comparison my losses were
.the assault squad, grey knights, and 2 ironclads. for a narrow hard fought victory over chaos.




4th game against these berserkers and finally got a win 7 VS 4 victory points.

Next week i look forward to a challenge as our iron warriors player is set to have a match up against the berserkers.

Working on some allies for my smurfs:

Good choice....especially if you have a chaos infestation. the 3rd ed codex is a great counter to the 3.5 chaos dex, even better if you run into non khorne demons with the original psy weapons ignore invul saves rules.


I always loved the look of GK armor. glad i have a squad of them now.

 aphyon wrote:
Good choice....especially if you have a chaos infestation. the 3rd ed codex is a great counter to the chaos dex, even better if you run into non khorne demons with the original psy weapons ignore invul saves rules

The old power armoured GK were a tough sell, but the terminators and GM were solid, especially with sacred incense and fielded as a proper retinue.

Their rules were pretty scattered but blanket immunity to minor psychic powers (i.e. siren) and counting anything with daemonic stature or 50pts of gifts (including daemonic weapons) as daemons encompassed a fair bit.

A.T. wrote:
Their rules were pretty scattered but blanket immunity to minor psychic powers (i.e. siren) and counting anything with daemonic stature or 50pts of gifts (including daemonic weapons) as daemons encompassed a fair bit.

Not to get into it, but GKs wouldn't've been immune to Siren, as it didn't target them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not to get into it, but GKs wouldn't've been immune to Siren, as it didn't target them.

Normal psychic powers had to target the GK to be negated. Minor powers "used by the enemy have no effect at all on Grey Knights".

GW never did a good job of clarifying that kind of stuff - is a squad caught by a blast aimed at something else 'targetted' for instance. Large tournament FAQs, small official FAQs. I remember they couldn't even keep their errata for daemonhunters and witch hunters in sync with each other.

I have a question / request.

Many people here said that they've made customized rule sets (ie modified versions of 5th edition).

I'm currently working on a hybrid version of the rules based on 5th. I'd love to see what other people have come up with. If you've made a new rule set of know of one, would you mind posting a link?

Much appreciated!

A.T. wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not to get into it, but GKs wouldn't've been immune to Siren, as it didn't target them.

Normal psychic powers had to target the GK to be negated. Minor powers "used by the enemy have no effect at all on Grey Knights".

GKs cannot ignore Siren because it doesn't "effect" them. Its target was "Self".

 Mezmorki wrote:
I have a question / request.

Many people here said that they've made customized rule sets (ie modified versions of 5th edition).

I'm currently working on a hybrid version of the rules based on 5th. I'd love to see what other people have come up with. If you've made a new rule set of know of one, would you mind posting a link?

Much appreciated!

I put mine in the very first post of this topic.




P.S.
H.B.M.C.
If you could point to an official FAQ/errata it would help end the debate quickly

 aphyon wrote:
H.B.M.C.
If you could point to an official FAQ/errata it would help end the debate quickly

There never was one and, quite frankly, GW's FAQ skills in those days wouldn't've given a coherent answer anyway*.

I remember back in the day there were three massive threads on Siren vs Grey Knights. At first I was very much in the "They don't effect Grey Knights!" camp. Over time the conversation became whether something had a direct or indirect effect (a direct effect could be ignored, whereas an indirect effect could not be). What that thread taught me and a few others is that the game had neither distinctions built into its rules, and thus we were adding definitions to the game that simply weren't there. Finally a lot of us came to the conclusion that as Siren does not target the GKs, they are unable to ignore it. Siren gives a special rule to the person who cast it, rather than rules onto those who would target the caster.



*To this day I will never forget when asked if a Blood Rage was added to a model's Daemonic Flight movement and they answered with "Blood Rage will not make a jump pack fly faster", even thought Daemonic Flight was mostly represented via giant wings.

My ideal would be something like late 3.5 codexes/models for army complexity and volume, plus some of the stats and mechanics of early 8th, including subfactions rationalizing vehicle stats, and stratagems before they got insane.

And, y'know, points balance, but that might be too much to ask.

 aphyon wrote:
P.S.
H.B.M.C.
If you could point to an official FAQ/errata it would help end the debate quickly

The closest thing to an errata on the subject was this :

Q./ 5.03 - Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and Black Templar’s with the ‘Abhor the Witch’ vow all suffer “no effect” from Minor psychic powers. Exactly what does “no effect” mean? Just if the unit is targeted by (or within the area effect of) the power? Or does it mean any effect, in any situation, anytime?
A./ If the minor powers affect the units targeting ability or restricts/modifies the units ability in any way, then the Minor Psychic powers have no effect, in the case of Siren, it does not affect the Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle. (WAU Interpretation*)

Unofficial 40K FAQ1 - 40K FAQ 1.3 May 2007.pdf - a mix of official errata and faq, answers from GWs forums, and interpretation from dakkadakka and wargamerAU, intended to be a reference for tournament use. Page 11, section 5(characters) in the unlikely event you have an old copy of the pdf yourself.


I personally agree with their interpretation as, unlike the prior section of the aegis rule covering full psychic powers, the minor power immunity did not require that the unit had to be targeted - only effected. And having a restriction placed on your target selection is an effect. GW never followed up, the just removed minor psychic powers from the game.

So was the original debate a RAI VS RAW argument before that clarification?

For GKs it would make sense from a lore/RAI perspective.
in BFG GK ships were effectively immune to the restrictions/powers of chaos fleet effects.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So a little batrep update.

Some friends had a challenge game world eaters VS iron warriors in 5th edition at 2K points

i only caught a glance at this one as i was playing my own game (pictured later)

the table-



I know the IW list well-

.warsmith
.X3 las/plas squads
.X3 obliterator squads of 3
.X3 las/heavy bolter predators with the works
.basilisk

khorne had from what i could see

.blood thirster
.terminator champions
.land raider
.X2 berserker squads in rhinos
.kharn
.X2 obliterators
.decimator
.helldrake




IWs won the day thanks to some super bad dice rolls for khorne


Now on to my game

i decided it was time to break out my turret bunkers,. so i ran a heavy defense list

with a proxy firestorm redoubt (fortification)
HQ
.master of the forge (forgot to put his servitors on the table)
TROOP
.5 man bolter scout squad
.10 man sniper scout team
.dread talon (X3 ironclads)
FAST
.assault squad
.storm eagle gunship
.stormhawk interceptor





Elysians-double force org

HQ
.lord commissar.
TROOP
X2 drop sentinel
FAST
.X3 tauros venetor multi laser
.2-X3 tauros venetor las cannon


HQ
.lord commissar.
TROOP
X2 drop sentinel
.X3 tauros venetor multi laser
.X3 tauros venetor las cannon
..vendetta gunship


the game started out this way




First half of the game he was actually hurting me pretty good, but after turn 5 i started removing his las cannons and the game turned quickly.





random turn length actually saw us go all the way to 7, which is not what he wanted. at the end of 5 we were only 1 kill point difference. by turn 7 he only had 1 unit left on the table.

 aphyon wrote:
So was the original debate a RAI VS RAW argument before that clarification?

Not exactly...
Rules as written, daemonhunters codex page 8 (page 3 of the free version) - "Minor psychic powers used by the enemy have no effect at all on Grey Knights."

The argument against adds the additional condition of being explicitly targeted.


edit - and that is a lot of tauros vehicles. The real things or good 3d prints?

A.T. wrote:
The argument against adds the additional condition of being explicitly targeted.

I disagree because you're not adding any conditions. Powers have targets - they are built into the rules for the power. Siren's target was "Self", therefore the power effects the psyker, not the GKs.

A.T. wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
So was the original debate a RAI VS RAW argument before that clarification?

Not exactly...
Rules as written, daemonhunters codex page 8 (page 3 of the free version) - "Minor psychic powers used by the enemy have no effect at all on Grey Knights."

The argument against adds the additional condition of being explicitly targeted.


edit - and that is a lot of tauros vehicles. The real things or good 3d prints?

Didn't see that last part.....no that's the real deal he spent about $1,500 US on that FW army...that no longer exists in 9th edition, good thing we still play 5th

Well it counts as an old edition now-index 8th edition in epic scale Khorne VS imperial guard.

Most of the khorne infantry were still in the transports or demons to be summoned.

 aphyon wrote:
Didn't see that last part.....no that's the real deal he spent about $1,500 US on that FW army...that no longer exists in 9th edition, good thing we still play 5th

Well at least it is assembled and in use. I have a small krieg army... somewhere. Buried beneath all of the other unbuilt stuff.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

A.T. wrote:
The argument against adds the additional condition of being explicitly targeted.

I disagree because you're not adding any conditions. Powers have targets - they are built into the rules for the power. Siren's target was "Self", therefore the power effects the psyker, not the GKs.

You have used two entirely different conditions in that sentence.
'Targets' and 'effects' are not equal. A psychic power that targets a single model and inflicts a wound on every model in a line between that target and the psyker effects every model along the line, but only targets the one model at the end.

And you are also adding the addition condition I spoke of - being targeted was never a requirement of the rule, the only question that matters was whether or not the power is effecting the grey knights in any way at all. In this case it is effecting their actions in the shooting and assault phases.

i just ordered a set of the 4 new epic scale tauros venators and elysian drop troops from vanguard along with a pack of aeronautica valkyries to fill out my guard armored company.

should be cool. IIRC got a list set up at 250 PL for index 8th ed style epic game.


-supreme command
.5 tech priest dominus
-superheavy detachment
.preator superheavy missile tank
.macharius
.macharius vulkan
-supreme command
.X3 leman russ commanders
-supreme command
.X3 leman russ punishers commanders
vanguard detachment
.lord commisar
.X4 elysian veteran squads(10)
.X4 vendettas
.taurus venator squad(4)

Welp, I've gone and done it.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791731.page

Finally got a cleaned up set of rule modifications for my modified 5th edition rule set. Managed to get a game in this week end (been a while since I played). Mostly went well although thinking of tweaking the overwatch rules to be a bit more like 2nd edition.

Really, there needs to be a tradeoff such that you don't want to go into overwatch unless absolutely necessary, and even then it needs to feel like gamble if it will pay off or not. Need to think more about that.

Anyway - I'd love any feedback on it, things I've missed or got wrong. Let me know if there is some way to better clarify the changes or make them stand out.

Well if you want to make overwatch more meaningful you could always use the DUST version. basically do a LD check on the unit being charged if they succeed then they get to shoot normally in overwatch but loose the ability to take any action in the next player turn. your rules have a similar feel

How has the response been in your local gaming group?

Well, presently my local gaming group consists of my kids and my nephews who are all learning to play - so they don't have a great basis for comparison. I might try playing games through tabletop simulator with my old group and see how it goes.

Regarding overmatch. It's interesting to see the logic of younger kids at work - because they are quick to call BS when things don't logically or intuitively make sense. First question they asked about over watch was why they couldn't shoot at something also In relatively close range even if it wasn't charging them. Realistically, there is no reason why the unit couldn't - but we so often add rules and extra thematic justifications in the name of balancing or streamlining. Maybe it's better to just go with our gut.

So I was thinking of making overwatch even more like 2nd edition, where you could shoot at something during the movement phase (not assault phase) - with the caveat that perhaps you'd have to nominate a unit you wanted to overwatch fire against and it has to have moved within 24" or something (also take a -1 to hit or something). At least keep the option there but make it more risky to do.

A.T. wrote:
You have used two entirely different conditions in that sentence.
'Targets' and 'effects' are not equal. A psychic power that targets a single model and inflicts a wound on every model in a line between that target and the psyker effects every model along the line, but only targets the one model at the end.

The effect is placed upon the target. That's where it ends.

If I have a psychic power that targets me and gives me an Invul save, GKs would not get to ignore that Invul save (unless they had a weapon that ignored invul saves).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The effect is placed upon the target. That's where it ends.

This is literally impossible to justify without monty python logic.

Siren Player - you can't target the siren
GK Player - i'm not effected by minor psychic powers
Siren Player - it isn't effecting you
GK Player - it's effecting my target selection
Siren Player - no it isn't
GK Player - well then i'm going to shoot the siren
(loop)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If I have a psychic power that targets me and gives me an Invul save, GKs would not get to ignore that Invul save (unless they had a weapon that ignored invul saves).

The GK player isn't making the invulnerable save, the chaos player is. You know this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmorki wrote:
So I was thinking of making overwatch even more like 2nd edition, where you could shoot at something during the movement phase (not assault phase) - with the caveat that perhaps you'd have to nominate a unit you wanted to overwatch fire against and it has to have moved within 24" or something (also take a -1 to hit or something). At least keep the option there but make it more risky to do.

2nd ed overwatch did get quite messy though. Games could descend into hide and overwatch fests where players would just wait on each other to get a clear out of cover shot. There was a sense of why shoot in my phase when I can shoot them in theirs.

2nd ed overwatch did get quite messy though. Games could descend into hide and overwatch fests where players would just wait on each other to get a clear out of cover shot. There was a sense of why shoot in my phase when I can shoot them in theirs.

That's probably why Andy Chambers, when working on writing the reaction rules for DUST, they made it only a 16" range and not a guaranteed action , you have to roll to see if your guys were "alert enough or paying attention" to react.

Everything affects everything in some form or another, which is why "minor powers have no effect on GKs" only works if you take the target of the power into account, otherwise the use of any minor power in any situation by any psyker on either side would be ignored, regardless of what it actually does, because, as I said, everything affects everything.

There are no "degrees" of effects. It is binary. Saying otherwise is adding conditions to the game that do not exist.

Siren works on Grey Knights because it's not being cast on the Grey Knights.

Guys your both great, but this is getting us nowhere you disagree, great news neither one of you will be playing against the other and not with the GK 3rd ed codex .


Having just re-read the paragraph on P8 it clearly covers 2 distinct in game actions

1.powers that target a GK unit and how they can negate it via the Aegis or psychic hood

that part of the subject ends with the period at the end of the sentence.
the final line is a secondary rule of the Aegis that has nothing to do with powers that "target" a GK unit.

It says quite clearly and simply

2."minor psychic powers used by the enemy have no effect at all on grey knights"

Siren appears not to "target" a GK unit so it cannot be negated by LD test, however if it is classified also as a minor power as per the second rule the GKs will just ignore it by RAW.

It is very similar to how GKs in BFG ignored the effects/rules of ships with marks of chaos.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Siren works on Grey Knights because it's not being cast on the Grey Knights.

We have now come full circle.

a) "Grey Knights are not the target" - I refer you to my original post explaining why that is not a requirement and referencing the wording of the rule.
b) "Effect = target" - These are not the same. I refer you to my post given an example of the difference.
c) "The effect starts and ends on the siren" - it clearly effects the target selection of the GK unit. See my previous post.
d) And then back to a.

Every single website post from the era I have managed to find, the posted tournament errata from the era, and as far as I can tell the rule as written disagree with you. But i've got nothing against houserules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aphyon wrote:
Guys your both great, but this is getting us nowhere you disagree, great news neither one of you will be playing against the other and not with the GK 3rd ed codex

Still worth hashing out - for my benefit too. I've got an old project to clean up the old books and rules which I should get back to at some point and all these edge cases are something that will need to be addressed.

The question of siren vs GK led me to that tournament errata document which I don't think i've seen before but is more more extensive that just the official FAQs and errata - i've tracked down a lot of GWs old documents but the tourny doc is the best master list i've seen, at least for that specific date.

I need to read through Mezmorkis stuff too. Looks like we have gone in slightly different directions (i've tried to limit extra rolls and actions like overwatch) but i'm a lot less set on other areas like wound allocation and objectives.

A.T. wrote:

 Mezmorki wrote:
So I was thinking of making overwatch even more like 2nd edition, where you could shoot at something during the movement phase (not assault phase) - with the caveat that perhaps you'd have to nominate a unit you wanted to overwatch fire against and it has to have moved within 24" or something (also take a -1 to hit or something). At least keep the option there but make it more risky to do.

2nd ed overwatch did get quite messy though. Games could descend into hide and overwatch fests where players would just wait on each other to get a clear out of cover shot. There was a sense of why shoot in my phase when I can shoot them in theirs.

Agreed. However, part of the problem with the older game was that in many cases objectives required less movement in order to secure. Missions were also frequently setup with distinct attackers and defenders, which meant that the defender could sit back on overwatch with little need to push out. With newer editions using multiple objective points, players that sit back and don't move - especially with troop units - won't be able to grab objectives as well.

I'm looking at a version that limits shooting to within 24" max range, comes with a -1 to hit modifier, and also means those units strike in melee at initiative 1 and lose the benefits of being in cover.

 Mezmorki wrote:
I'm looking at a version that limits shooting to within 24" max range, comes with a -1 to hit modifier, and also means those units strike in melee at initiative 1 and lose the benefits of being in cover.

With the target selection rules Is suspect there may be quite an incentive to put a lot of units onto overwatch.

- Triggering them one at a time to efficiently remove units, particularly those that were not quite destroyed due to selective firing.
- Waiting on units tied in close combat (where your side is about to lose) and slaughtering the winners with overwatch

And quite a few others depending on the restrictions and timings involved. Not all bad, but a lot of potential for interruption and complexity, the latter of which might lead to a number of additional edge-case rules being needed.