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I feel like the word "boycott" was poorly chosen and polarizing; It evokes images of hundreds of striking players galvanized against brokenly layered rules standing outside a GW holding up placards with icons depicting a Primaris helmet with a not-allowed sign scribbled on in permanent marker, and is making the argument seem much sillier than the more reasonable query "will people stop playing against Marines."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah every time I tell people to just not buy the printed rules and just download them if you REALLY want them, they gotta be all the sudden feeling morally superior and say I'm a terrible person. Yet they wonder why GW keeps making stupid rules decisions and having the audacity to charge them big money for it. They seem to never connect the two together.

I've been lurking for a bit, so I'll admit surprise that among the first things I express with you is total agreement, but the books in particular so rapidly become worthless piles of unFaq'ed nonsense, then completely replaced by newer material, that they aren't worth the physical space they consume, much less the money they charge. It's a release now, patch later philosophy that one could argue is acceptable in a $40 video game, but that definitely isn't in a $40 physical book that doesn't automatically reprint itself at the whim of a host server.

yukishiro1 wrote:At the tournament level, where everyone runs the most carefully engineered competitive list they can, the overpoweredness of space marines is actually much lower than it is at the casual level.

I believe this. Tournament GT results (What few we have, anyway) aren't all marines all the time; They aren't skewed much higher than the expected percentage of people playing Marines. Experts do think other armies can be better at the very highest end (Death Guard, Custodes, Admech) I have little doubt that there are ways of dealing with them, and yes, if your goal is top-end competitive play, trying to 'boycott' them is silly, because you will have to deal with them eventually.

I further agree with you that it is absolutely not silly to refuse to play against them if your goal is to take what you want and have a good time in casual or narrative play.

Togusa wrote:Did the shop owner tell these people to stop crying and feth off? This kind of backlash is ludicrous. Today is the day I finally lost respect for the community of this game.

This seems like a very strange place to draw that particular line.

 aphyon wrote:
@ CEO Kasen...avatar looks like brian J. mason from bubblegum crisis

My first armies were related to the Imperial Lens Network, a Hive-world-spanning media-conglomerate corporate dystopia - and that man had *just* the requisite level of megalomania and hair.

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
You can keep saying it makes no sense, but the point is that lots of people disagree with you. It makes all the sense in the world to many people not to play games they have no chance of winning and won't enjoy because the result is preordained.

If someone enjoys 40k generally, but does not enjoy games against a specific faction because it's too overpowered, why are you telling them they're wrong to only play games they like, or telling them their only option is to quit playing the game entirely if they're tired of being roflstomped by an overtuned codex?

except we've seen none of the other codexes and have no idea beyond useless statistics hammer if the codex is op or not. It's been my experience that Math hammer is usually horrendously wrong in terms of what is deemed OP. I remember when they were math hammering all the broken OPness of Eliminators, a Primaris unit that I've never once seen anyone field. Ever. Generally math hammer leads to overreactions and a lot of "Oh yeah, well if..." arguments.

1. I already stated that I'm not saying this is what will happen, just that if it does happen, people would be reasonable to react by saying "I'm not playing my 8th edition codex faction against your 9th edition stat-inflated faction."

2. Other codexs won't come out for months or probably in some cases years after the Space Marine one. That's the whole problem people are raising. If they had redid the stats for everybody at the start of 9th edition it would be vastly different to what they are doing, Super Saiyaning each faction in turn is a recipe for feels bad moments, though, and just the sort of thing likely to lead people to say they're not interested in playing their 8th edition faction against someone else's Super Saiyan 9th edition faction.

 Arko wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Arko wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
"My codex is overpowered: get over it. But keep playing games with me! Not playing games with me because I run the overpowered faction you can't compete with is super unfair!" doesn't strike me as a particularly great pitch to make to people.

Note, I'm not saying it'll necessarily turn out that way. But if it does turn out that way, it's truly silly to expect people to want to keep playing games against a faction they just get roflstomped by. If GW continues to lavish attention and overpowered rules on Marines, there will certainly come a point where many or most 40k players not playing marines armies just aren't interested in playing against them, and that's totally natural and to be expected. The fault lies with GW in that instance, not with players who are tired of getting stomped by an overtuned book.

I played from 3th To 7th edition a lot, I played almost all of the armies , I still got most of them , who said I'm a SM player only? Guess what I NEVER played an army when it was top codex in my life because it's not interesting to play with in the first place...Close games are way more funnier and interesting than stomp or getting stomped.

I missed the 8th edition, I didn't even know which army was strong or not when I came back a month ago, I chose Primaris because I like the minis, and now I see threads like this, where people say that "SM player should be ashamed To play SM" I mean come on...Imagine the new player reading this, what will he thinks about the community?

As all of you, I don't like the fact that a codex is far superior than the others, that's hot healthy for the game, but again, refusing to play against a random person just because he plays SM makes no sense at all. Blame GW, mail them, stop buying there products, boycott them, but not the players...

Maybe like.. you can email GW and tell them them people dont want to play against your army??

My god you people can't read your own language, read again the first sentence of what you just quoted, and tell me again it's MY army lol

And I don't need to mail them, because I know GW well, and I know there will always be a top codex, so I Guess I...got over it, a thing I hope you'll learn To do, because real life will litteraly eat you alive if you don't

I didint't mean you as in You specifically. the "you" would be anyone who is having games turned down.
The burden is not on the ones turning down the game.. if they can get other games/games against other factions its not their problem.

I didin't use any fliers units the entire edition I played because it was broken plain and simple.
I always made that fact clear when asking for games at my local. Most factions have had historic issue of being mediocre with the exception of one or two broken exploits/Broken rules I.E. Ynnari double shooting reapers/shining spears + eldar fliers, or Castellan and loyal 32. Its easy to tone down and its easy to caveat pregame.

This is something different entirely.

In my (extremely small) group, we chatted about this and have decided to stick with 8th edition stats and power levels (we're playing Crusade currently) until all participating armies have 9th edition codexes.

Unless we just decide to playtest the new stuff and decide it works better. But we'll wait until everyone agrees that the new stats are okay before we make the leap.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
I feel like the word "boycott" was poorly chosen and polarizing; It evokes images of hundreds of striking players galvanized against brokenly layered rules standing outside a GW holding up placards with icons depicting a Primaris helmet with a not-allowed sign scribbled on in permanent marker, and is making the argument seem much sillier than the more reasonable query "will people stop playing against Marines."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah every time I tell people to just not buy the printed rules and just download them if you REALLY want them, they gotta be all the sudden feeling morally superior and say I'm a terrible person. Yet they wonder why GW keeps making stupid rules decisions and having the audacity to charge them big money for it. They seem to never connect the two together.

I've been lurking for a bit, so I'll admit surprise that among the first things I express with you is total agreement, but the books in particular so rapidly become worthless piles of unFaq'ed nonsense, then completely replaced by newer material, that they aren't worth the physical space they consume, much less the money they charge. It's a release now, patch later philosophy that one could argue is acceptable in a $40 video game, but that definitely isn't in a $40 physical book that doesn't automatically reprint itself at the whim of a host server.

I called it as soon as GW announced Chapter Approved coming back. It's already one thing to pay for patches to balance. It's another thing to just release a codex and make it worthless essentially because of a quickly done future release. The best example of that is actually the faction in question. We had the Marine codex released at the near beginning of the edition and GW had the audacity to try and charge for the Index (which we already knew people would do so anyway lest their models become invalid not being in the codex). We can say that was mid 2017 yes? New Marine codex 2.0 was just released literally this last year. Come now this year not only was that purchase invalidated, but then GW has the nerve to try and make us purchase Munitorium for 9th, which we already know will be invalidated in October.
They tried something similar with Chaos Marines too, including the patch from PA. Then they completely ignore balance issues for different armies, especially Necrons. Then they bother to release Engine War, which is basically overpowered for AdMech and it will quickly be invalidated for 9th too. GW said the PA books were written with 9th in mind, but because of the rules that already get invalidated by vote rules alone in 9th (hahahahahahaha Death Guard have a Strat to give Inexorable Advance to vehicles! Oh wait they get the important bit in 9th!) they proved they were literally able to lie to our faces and people will still eat it up!

So when I say to boycott all their printed materials, it helps everyone.

Players with other armies "boycotting" space marine armies is like me boycotting trash talking adolescents who've apparently fethed my mum, in a Call of Duty game: they already outnumber me so overwhelmingly that they won't even realize I'm gone.

 Argive wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
You can keep saying it makes no sense, but the point is that lots of people disagree with you. It makes all the sense in the world to many people not to play games they have no chance of winning and won't enjoy because the result is preordained.

If someone enjoys 40k generally, but does not enjoy games against a specific faction because it's too overpowered, why are you telling them they're wrong to only play games they like, or telling them their only option is to quit playing the game entirely if they're tired of being roflstomped by an overtuned codex?

except we've seen none of the other codexes and have no idea beyond useless statistics hammer if the codex is op or not. It's been my experience that Math hammer is usually horrendously wrong in terms of what is deemed OP. I remember when they were math hammering all the broken OPness of Eliminators, a Primaris unit that I've never once seen anyone field. Ever. Generally math hammer leads to overreactions and a lot of "Oh yeah, well if..." arguments.

you diidnt see 3x3 eliminator units in all those IH lists crushing Gts ? Intersting.. Must have Imagined Navatis IH list.
Remmeber how everyone said IH are just stupidly broken. and lo and behold... we saw IH crush left right and center warranting about 3 rounds of nerfs?

This song and dance goes on every time there's clearly something that anyone with basic understanding of the game can tell is a bit too strong. Every. Time.
invictor wart suits... "Ohh they will be fine people are just exagarating its a problem to have 3 dreds start the game 9" away from your army"
Impulsor "ohh ots crap it doesnt have any guns etc etc." caps objectives, shuts down shooting and tanks on a 4++ while flying around screening and protects the most points efficient troop choice in the game for 80pts

We haven't even seen eradicators in action properly due to covid...
And now 2 W tacs..

Its ludacris at this point i think a lot of people are surprised as they didint sign up to play Indomitus Heresyy 41k..

I never saw in IH lists in my area, no one played that bull gak when it came out.

i would say those who are pissed off might consider going finding another game, or wait until all the codexes out and see what happens.

Couldn't you just not suggest anything at all and let people do what they want without telling them they're wrong for not wanting to be roflstomped by your 9th edition codex with their 8th edition army? I mean if you want to roflstomp people that's totally fine, more power to you if you can find anyone to stomp. But I don't think you need to tell people who would prefer to play 8th edition codex against 8th edition codex that they should quit the game entirely if they don't appreciate the stomping as much as you do. "If you don't want to get stomped by a new codex you should quit entirely!" seems like an unnecessarily hostile and reductive argument.

Manous wrote:
Hey Folks,

Many of the frequent customers in my local gaming store are already boycotting games against (Primaris) Space Marines or are planning to do so in the near future especially under consideration of the new leaks.

Yeah. I'm sure they are. I'm sure there's a bunch of people who 'quit after 3rd edition' in that crowd, too.

But hey, if they want to eliminate about half their game options in a pandemic, they can be my guest.

Manous wrote:
Others are enforcing artificial restraints (2000pts game, marines get only 1750). Is my area an exception or are we going to see this modus operandi being more and more acceptable?

No. Because they're called 'rules' for a reason.

You may as well arbitrarily start banning every army that's in line to get a new Codex as it happens. Because let's be honest, this happens with every Codex release with very few exceptions. And I'm pretty sure if the word came out that Imperial Guard have to cut their lists 250 points short, you'd never hear the end of the whinging.

I'm not saying it's you- but every part of this 'boycott' sounds like someone pulled it out of their rear exhaust port.

Actually, I'd like to see a counter to that- anyone who participates in a boycott like this, instead of doing the reasonable adult thing and Waiting for the book to come out and testing it should probably be refused any games with anyone when their own Codex comes out. For about 6 months, they should have to sit and watch other people have fun.

I think the point is that lots of people are sick to the back teeth of playing marines already. It's not as if Space Marines haven't already been lavished with attention and overpowered rules for the last year. So when people see even more attention and even more inflated rules, it seems reasonable enough that many will get frustrated and say "you know what, I'd rather play another NPC faction like my own." People play the game to have fun; if GW's overattention to one faction at the expense of others makes it so playing that faction isn't fun, isn't it completely right that people should stop doing what isn't fun for them?

My meta is Primaris and Space Marine heavy, so I can safely say no, there won't be any ban.
But most people run a few armies, so I have started ramping up my Sisters of Battle, it's more of a side project, but perfect for Crusade. Just for variety's sake.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think the point is that lots of people are sick to the back teeth of playing marines already.

I'd be more than happy to play another faction.

I'll just be needing my opponent that wants me to play that faction to provide me with the models.

yukishiro1 wrote:
People play the game to have fun; if GW's overattention to one faction at the expense of others makes it so playing that faction isn't fun, isn't it completely right that people should stop doing what isn't fun for them?

Of course.

And I have fun with my Deathwatch army.

I should also get to enjoy playing, shouldn't I? It's not my responsibility to provide the ideal amusement for others. I'm another player like you or anyone else, not a hired entertainer.

If people worried more about their own armies and less about others' army preferences... there might be more armies painted to tabletop standards.

I’m neither for or against a boycott because fundamentally we all have the right to pick our games. I don’t expect a generalized boycott since marines are popular, but I can definitely see some groups imposing their own bans. So, if boycotting makes your personal community happier then go for it, but don’t expect it to affect GW or tournaments.

Besides, marine players can also opt to wait until other factions catch up. Telling non-marine players to grow up and wait while you pummel them with new rules is hardly good sportsmanship. Games are a social contract, if you’re not having fun then change your games or take a break.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Of course.

And I have fun with my Deathwatch army.

I should also get to enjoy playing, shouldn't I? It's not my responsibility to provide the ideal amusement for others. I'm another player like you or anyone else, not a hired entertainer.

If you can find someone who wants to play your army, of course you should enjoy playing with them. But if you can't find anyone who wants to play your army, you don't have any right to force them to play you if they don't want to.

It's not your responsibility to provide amusement for others, just like it isn't their responsibility to provide amusement for you.

I'm glad we now all seem to agree that if someone doesn't have fun playing against an overtuned faction, it's reasonable for them to say they don't want to.

And the great thing about marines is everyone and their mother plays them, so even if you can't find a non-marines player to play with because they're tired of getting stomped, I'm sure it won't be hard to find yet another marines player to play against. Probably boring, but definitely possible.

yukishiro1 wrote:
If you can find someone who wants to play your army, of course you should enjoy playing with them. But if you can't find anyone who wants to play your army, you don't have any right to force them to play you if they don't want to.

Absolutely. No argument at all.

Because let's be honest, it's a point increase and an extra wound that's got people up in arms- and it was obvious that this was going to happen, it's been obvious for years now.

And one thing about about snobby, whiny, hyperbolic people- they don't tend to last long in local communities.

It certainly can't be fun sitting there with their models, watching all those other people play and have fun. Maybe they can bond with the 3 people in their State that play Horus Heresy and scream at everyone about how much better Horus Heresy is than 40k.

Honestly, nobody is going to boycott anything without playing a few games. But if people do play a few games against the new marines and it is anything like the IH Supplement, there absolutely will be large numbers of people who aren't going to be playing against marines until it gets fixed (which in this case will probably be months or years until their faction gets the same stat inflation treatment), just like happened when that thing came out.

I hope GW is smart enough to know this and cares enough to avoid it, but pasts omens don't augur particular well.

That said, I will happily eat my hat if the new Marines codex comes out and it totally nerfs them.

yukishiro1 wrote:
... there absolutely will be large numbers of people who aren't going to be playing against marines until it gets fixed...

Okay, let's be really honest here.

Take in a deep breath, exhale slowly- and think about this... because what I am about to say is the truth, and we both know it. It's just unpleasant to admit. Are you ready?



It's true. You've seen it with your own two eyes.

I'm sure some people will. Others will not. Just like happened with the IH Supplement. Some people ran off to buy the new ridiculously overpowered thing, others said "you know what, I'm not interested in playing this or in playing against this."

It's almost as if...and I know this will shock you...people are different.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's almost as if...and I know this will shock you...people are different.

Nah, usually the ones who are freaking out about something trivial and think it's some insanely overpowered buff are usually complaining because they were sold out and couldn't get one of their own. Other people- well, they just said "Yeah, it needs to be touched up. I'd probably just ask someone to do X or Y if they played that faction, that might balance it out"

I know this might be equally shocking, but hear me out:

The same kind of people that are having a meltdown over Space Marines getting an extra wound, and everyone getting weapon buffs...

...no, they're really not much different where it counts. They're comically predictable, to a point where it's a meme.

I'm going to say something even more shocking...

...Maybe anyone who isn't going to wait until the Codex drops, try a few games out, and see how things work before flat-out refusing to play with certain members of their local community- or at the very least, be willing to negotiate some other means to balance a friendly game?

Well, maybe they are best ignored.

Well ok mate, if you say so. Everybody should do what they enjoy, and if you enjoy believing you know better what people who you've never met are thinking and how they'll react than the people themselves, keep it up I guess.

Honestly, everytime I see this sort of thing... People say that it's a large amount of people doing it that they'll get large amounts of people to boycott X and players will quit playing SM or something or another..

Realization: It's not. Dakka isn't even a fraction of all the players of 40k so even if you got an agreement on one of the most negative forums out there.. Well that aint much, and people is already experiencing backlash for this idea here.

Significant numbers of people absolutely did stop wanting to play Iron Hands armies for a while when they were most egregiously overpowered, so there is historical precedent for it. How it'll shake out this time obviously depends on how the new Codex ends up. If it does end up being the case that the 9th edition codexes are heads-and-shoulders above the 8th edition codexes, to the point that people can't compete with an 8th edition codex, you probably will see significant numbers of not wanting to play 8th edition codexes against 9th edition ones; that's perfectly natural and reasonable. If GW doesn't screw the pooch like they did with the IH supplement, presumably far fewer people will take that position.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Significant numbers of people absolutely did stop wanting to play Iron Hands armies for a while when they were most egregiously overpowered...

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim, or is this anecdotal? Speculation? Opinion?

Because if we're going on anecdotes about Iron Hands:

>All the local FLGS and GW stores within 100 miles of my location were sold out
>Distributors couln't get them
>GW's online store was constantly out of stock
>Shapeways was backed up on orders for IH heraldry from at least 3 sources
>Forge World was out of stock on IH bits and also on Sicarans, etc.
>Space Marine tanks were also constantly sold out/out of stock

So, at least from my perspective... either there was a massive surge in new players that immediately said "Boy those Iron Hands guys sure are super cool, that's who I want my first 40k Army to be"...

...or people jumped on the bandwagon.

EDIT:

And yeah, I'm sure that 'a lot of people didn't want to play them'... but at the end of the day what it really amounted to was a couple of weeks of complaining, and then GW halfway fixing the problem, and people still complained.

I've said it plenty of times- whining about 40k is pretty much 2/3 of the hobby.

Probably both because Iron Hands are what initially dragged me towards Marines, and with my first army being Necrons it made a lot of sense.

I just realised it's a L2P issue. A good player will always find a way to win. The winner of the last big 9th edition tournament in Australia is...an ork player.
I bet this Guy spent less time crying and more time using his brain to find a way to beat the evil OP marines. And BAM! It worked !
Be more like this Guy, and less like you, that will be an improvment.

But in the end, I'm glad some people here want To boycott SM players, because you're the worst kind of players anyway. Always crying and throw tantrums, bad players, bad attitude, so it's a win-win situation

When another codex will be strong, we will see you again create threads like this, except if it's your codex ofc, because in this case I bet we won't hear about you anymore.

You're just a reflection of what's happening in the real world nowadays...When you're facing a problem, instead of trying To solve it, become stronger and use your brain to find a solution, you just cry and whine but guess what, that won't solve the problem at all, grow up and be like the Australian Ork player for a change. Nothing is invincible nor unbeatable.

 Arko wrote:
I just realised it's a L2P issue. A good player will always find a way to win. The winner of the last big 9th edition tournament in Australia is...an ork player.
I bet this Guy spent less time crying and more time using his brain to find a way to beat the evil OP marines. And BAM! It worked !
Be more like this Guy, and less like you, that will be an improvment.

But in the end, I'm glad some people here want To boycott SM players, because you're the worst kind of players anyway. Always crying and throw tantrums, bad players, bad attitude, so it's a win-win situation

When another codex will be strong, we will see you again create threads like this, except if it's your codex ofc, because in this case I bet we won't hear about you anymore.

You're just a reflection of what's happening in the real world nowadays...When you're facing a problem, instead of trying To solve it, become stronger and use your brain to find a solution, you just cry and whine but guess what, that won't solve the problem at all, grow up and be like the Australian Ork player for a change. Nothing is invincible nor unbeatable.

When you are done strawmanning op will you answer his question or further break rule 1.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Arko wrote:
I just realised it's a L2P issue. A good player will always find a way to win. The winner of the last big 9th edition tournament in Australia is...an ork player.
I bet this Guy spent less time crying and more time using his brain to find a way to beat the evil OP marines. And BAM! It worked !
Be more like this Guy, and less like you, that will be an improvment.

But in the end, I'm glad some people here want To boycott SM players, because you're the worst kind of players anyway. Always crying and throw tantrums, bad players, bad attitude, so it's a win-win situation

When another codex will be strong, we will see you again create threads like this, except if it's your codex ofc, because in this case I bet we won't hear about you anymore.

You're just a reflection of what's happening in the real world nowadays...When you're facing a problem, instead of trying To solve it, become stronger and use your brain to find a solution, you just cry and whine but guess what, that won't solve the problem at all, grow up and be like the Australian Ork player for a change. Nothing is invincible nor unbeatable.

When you are done strawmanning op will you answer his question or further break rule 1.

I think I made my statement clear as crystal about this matter, but it looks like you're the kind of people who needs a "Dangerous : don't eat" on a box of Tide pod so here we go :

No, there will never be a boycott in my local area, because we like challenges, we already played againts top codexes many times in the past and were able to win, and are not 5 yo crying kids.

BTW, trying to call me out about forum rules because you don't have any arguments to answer my pure facts just show everyone how you can't handle the truth. Now I'm waiting from you to call out ALL of the people here who did'nt answer OP's question, and there's a lot in the crying side, so do it, or you will look very biased

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm sure some people will. Others will not. Just like happened with the IH Supplement. Some people ran off to buy the new ridiculously overpowered thing, others said "you know what, I'm not interested in playing this or in playing against this."

It's almost as if...and I know this will shock you...people are different.

except not all marines are OP (go on, show me how OP reivers are. I'll wait)

also Marines have always been common. childishly telling people "PLAY A DIFFERANT ARMY" is well.. childish.

People will play what they want. and unless you're in some meta where everyone runs a net list, chances are it'll be differant. Tim's Space Wolves will play very differantly from Bruce's Ultramarines who play differant from Dick's White Scars.

 Arko wrote:
..or you will look very biased

Not Online! is not what I'd call a biased person. He's actually a pretty solid dude, he's helped me out, and I'm a jerk. Don't give him too much crap, English is his second language. I believe his first language is yodeling or something, I forget.

However, if bias is something you're going to get annoyed with, well...

...enjoy the ride here on Dakkadakka.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Arko wrote:
..or you will look very biased

Not Online! is not what I'd call a biased person. He's actually a pretty solid dude, he's helped me out, and I'm a jerk. Don't give him too much crap, English is his second language. I believe his first language is yodeling or something, I forget.

However, if bias is something you're going to get annoyed with, well...

...enjoy the ride here on Dakkadakka.

English is also my second language, and my country is well known to suck at foreign language, so what's your point? ^^
What he asked was very clear, as was my answer. Sorry, but I don't care about "hurting" people "feelings", people give words too much power, it's just words, and if you can't stand an argument on the internet, I mean, how could you survive in real life?

Anyway, I'm out of this thread, it's pointless, everyone can make what they want, it's just sad that's because of GW's mistakes, some people here want to divide the community in half because they're not able to win against "x" army.

I hope a lot of codexes will drop soon, and I hope they will be as strong as the SM one will probably be. Cya!