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Interesting that MKIV War Machine (or their effort at Sci-fi) seem to have not helped them regain their glory in the US.

I am still pretty convinced that games that lean into competitive too much, eventually just paint themselves into a corner and die. Or, it could be more of what @the_scotsman was saying about non-GW games not being able to weather edition changes.

 Easy E wrote:
Interesting that MKIV War Machine (or their effort at Sci-fi) seem to have not helped them regain their glory in the US.

I am still pretty convinced that games that lean into competitive too much, eventually just paint themselves into a corner and die. Or, it could be more of what @the_scotsman was saying about non-GW games not being able to weather edition changes.

Almost no MK4 product has actually released.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Interesting that MKIV War Machine (or their effort at Sci-fi) seem to have not helped them regain their glory in the US.

I am still pretty convinced that games that lean into competitive too much, eventually just paint themselves into a corner and die. Or, it could be more of what @the_scotsman was saying about non-GW games not being able to weather edition changes.

Almost no MK4 product has actually released.

Oh..... interesting. Shows how connected I am in that world. LOL!

That's not entirely accurate, there's a good amount of mk4 product that has been released.... just not to retailers.

chaos0xomega wrote:
That's not entirely accurate, there's a good amount of mk4 product that has been released.... just not to retailers.

It's definitely improving. Dusk and Brineblood are great additions and if PP can get the Khymera starter out before the end of the year along with a new SR that's well suited to 50-75 point games I think there's potential to rally players around it again. The timeline of this report though is pretty limited in what's available and the delays have left it feeling like Mk4 hasn't really launched yet. Locally we all agreed pretty early in the year we'd wait and see what things look like in the fall before we push for new players.

Wait and see isn't a bad idea, the flip side is that it does PP no favors either.

I think 50-75 pt SR packet is critical for the game to succeed though. Sticking at 100 pts will kill the game. The vets all want it because they want to field as much of their stuff as possible, but its a slog to play and not friendly to beginners in the slightest. I found the 50 pt beta testing I was doing for PP last year to be some of the most fun I've had playing with toy soldiers in years, was annoyed when they pushed for higher points games in response to feedback from vets.

chaos0xomega wrote:
That's not entirely accurate, there's a good amount of mk4 product that has been released.... just not to retailers.

And that’s a massive problem that isn’t going away.
If it’s not on the shelves at game stores, it’s always going to have a very small player base.
They might be whales and very dedicated, but it isn’t going to help them grow any.
The sticker shock is what killed it for me. $400 if I want to try this with my kid? Way to high a price tag.
Plus, there’s not going to be anyone to playa against beside each other because it has zero LGS presence.
I’m rather disappointed in how they launched MK4.

Yeah, theres not a good affordable entry point for new players into the game IMO. GW has entry level 2-player 40k starter sets like the introductory level 2-player set for $65 and the more robust starter set for $110. In either case, its affordable for one person to get into the game and demo it to their friends, and even cheaper if you have a buddy who is already interested to split the cost of the box with.

The entry point for *1* player into Warmachine is a $200 outlay, unless that new player happens to get lucky and come in during one of those limited time windows where the $75 preview box for a faction they are interested in is available for them to pick up. Anyone who is interested in the game but coming in cold is basically screwed unless they are willing to put up $400 on a lark in the hopes of convincing some buddies to buy in as well.

Those preview boxes really should be core retail starter products to ease new players in, rather than a limited time opportunity for established players to score a slight discount on their buy-in into a new faction.

When GW are a cheaper starter option than you its time to give up.

Not to mention I suspect a good many whales got burned by them axing whole armies from the game and changing them up

Heck pretty sure a lot of the Hordes plays feel that way right now.

Again PP just seems ot have this issue where all their choices are likely defined by their in-house problems and finding solutions to them without ever really pausing to think just who their target market really is and if that target market is good for either sustained sales over a medium time period or growth of sales.


It feels like they wanted MKIV to be growth, but all their choices have wound up at best on sustain and at worst on dwindling.

Even GW learned that they need cheap entry games and GW are the giant in the market who can bleed customers for years and still be doing ok financially speaking. Heck GW has even gone for alternate entry games like Underworld, Warcry and Killteam - games that are super cheap to get into. They've realised that even if they can't get you to part with £200 for a big startup (inc tools and such); then they can at least sting you for way less with some pushfit models and games that let you get to table with 1 model pack.

When you can jump into an intro game with YOUR Underworld team within 5 mins of buying the pack that's a huge thing for getting someone hooked and involved.



The lack of material to retailers also hurts a lot more overseas because that means customers who aren't buying from the PP main store can't get hold of product easily. So they are burning all their existing fans hard too.

And, as said earlier, if it’s not on shelves? How does someone find out about it? How do you get impulse sales?

If I run a FLGS, and I can stock a given game, do you think I’ll be open to folks playing it in my shop?

chaos0xomega wrote:

Those preview boxes really should be core retail starter products to ease new players in, rather than a limited time opportunity for established players to score a slight discount on their buy-in into a new faction.

100% this. I kind of hope that changes as I honestly think they might have just gotten caught off guard with how popular those have been. It's definitely something they should push. Those boxes have a good deal of gameplay in them and really expand well into the real game compared to the old battleboxes.

I will say, the $200 boxes, beyond the sticker shock are a lot of game. There's a solid amount of models in it, the sculpts are great, and there's enough points to be able to play around with a number of lists. It's just a price tag that's beyond the $100-$150 range that seems to draw people in these days.

 LunarSol wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Those preview boxes really should be core retail starter products to ease new players in, rather than a limited time opportunity for established players to score a slight discount on their buy-in into a new faction.

100% this. I kind of hope that changes as I honestly think they might have just gotten caught off guard with how popular those have been. It's definitely something they should push. Those boxes have a good deal of gameplay in them and really expand well into the real game compared to the old battleboxes.

I will say, the $200 boxes, beyond the sticker shock are a lot of game. There's a solid amount of models in it, the sculpts are great, and there's enough points to be able to play around with a number of lists. It's just a price tag that's beyond the $100-$150 range that seems to draw people in these days.

See this is the thing - the $200boxes are not outright a bad idea. They are very solid, in fact most firms have expensive army/bundle boxes. They are a great expansion point for people and once you've got a popular game at the local level they are great for people going for their second or third army. They are just really rubbish as your gateway product in this market. They are not gateway products, even GW was really really cautious with AT having a £150 starter set and have lowered it down a decent chunk by lowering the model content to try and get it lower. So even the market leader knows that having only a high price point is a big risk for a game.

 LunarSol wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Those preview boxes really should be core retail starter products to ease new players in, rather than a limited time opportunity for established players to score a slight discount on their buy-in into a new faction.

It's just a price tag that's beyond the $100-$150 range that seems to draw people in these days.

Right, and thats the problem. Its a relatively easy sale to existing fans that know what the games about and don't have a grudge against PP, etc. But that subset of the market is realistically too small to sustain the company's growth long-term. They need to appeal to those lapsed players that parted ways with the game in late mk2 and early mk3, who are looking at mk4 and thinking "hey maybe I'll give it another go" and then going "oh gak, I don't have a functional army for this game anymore, the models I need to make my legacy collection functional are out of production, and starting out a new army is going to cost an arm and a leg, no thanks", as well as the total newbies who go "oh, I've heard of this game, I'm intrigued, let me give it a try", but then go "ah, not for that price, its too steep for something I'm not sure of, and nobody around me plays anyway so its a bit risky to invest that much into something I might never get to play".

 Overread wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Those preview boxes really should be core retail starter products to ease new players in, rather than a limited time opportunity for established players to score a slight discount on their buy-in into a new faction.

100% this. I kind of hope that changes as I honestly think they might have just gotten caught off guard with how popular those have been. It's definitely something they should push. Those boxes have a good deal of gameplay in them and really expand well into the real game compared to the old battleboxes.

I will say, the $200 boxes, beyond the sticker shock are a lot of game. There's a solid amount of models in it, the sculpts are great, and there's enough points to be able to play around with a number of lists. It's just a price tag that's beyond the $100-$150 range that seems to draw people in these days.

See this is the thing - the $200boxes are not outright a bad idea. They are very solid, in fact most firms have expensive army/bundle boxes. They are a great expansion point for people and once you've got a popular game at the local level they are great for people going for their second or third army. They are just really rubbish as your gateway product in this market. They are not gateway products, even GW was really really cautious with AT having a £150 starter set and have lowered it down a decent chunk by lowering the model content to try and get it lower. So even the market leader knows that having only a high price point is a big risk for a game.

Agreed. I don't dislike the boxes, I think they are fantastic value... just not for someone who is on the fence or hesitant to dip their toe in. There needs to be a true gateway product at gateway prices that appeals to newcomers so that PP can actually grow its market share and customer base.