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 Crimson wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Scale is a nightmare of confusion!

Good demonstration of how "40K vehicle models are too small" is seriously misguided. People really have no clue what size real military vehicles are.

As others said, that is a demonstrably tiny and cramped tank to begin with.

The real reason we are saying the vehicles need to stretch is because scaled to the weapons they are too small. Which is correct. The vehicles would need internal space dedicated to feed mechanisms and ammo storage that simply doesn't exist on the physical models.

I would also be confidant in saying that 40k vehicles are larger than many modern military vehicles because of the additional technology they have in them. Tons of autoloaders, jamming equipment, etc...

There is already a trend of military vehicles getting way bigger recently to accommodate all the extra technology that exists now compared to WW2.





Check out these Boxer IFVs. They are massive compared to things like the Abrams and other vehicles and this is the trend of modern stuff. Its getting way bigger than vehicles used to be.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Scale is a nightmare of confusion!

Good demonstration of how "40K vehicle models are too small" is seriously misguided. People really have no clue what size real military vehicles are.

As others said, that is a demonstrably tiny and cramped tank to begin with.

The real reason we are saying the vehicles need to stretch is because scaled to the weapons they are too small. Which is correct. The vehicles would need internal space dedicated to feed mechanisms and ammo storage that simply doesn't exist on the physical models.

I would also be confidant in saying that 40k vehicles are larger than many modern military vehicles because of the additional technology they have in them. Tons of autoloaders, jamming equipment, etc...

There is already a trend of military vehicles getting way bigger recently to accommodate all the extra technology that exists now compared to WW2.





Check out these Boxer IFVs. They are massive compared to things like the Abrams and other vehicles and this is the trend of modern stuff. Its getting way bigger than vehicles used to be.

I think it's really more that the guns are way too huge for the size of the vehicle, not the other way around.
GW evidently seems to understand this too, as all the sizes of guns we have in canon are pretty reasonable (such as 0.75cal bolter). It's just that the physical model (in an openly 'Heroic' scale) is hugely bigger than you would expect for a 0.75cal weapon.
The actual physical hulls of the vehicles aren't too silly. Leman Russes are way taller than they have any right to be though with way too tiny a turret. Predators are a lot chunkier than they need to be, but make sense in the context of a battletank modification of an APC, similar to a Boxer SPG.

Right. Like the weapon bores are usually at least twice the width on the models than in the lore.

I'll post my scale comparison example from the other thread.


And one to contextualize the Land Raider as a different example.


If Space Marines are 7 feet tall, then the Land Raider if to scale is like 16+ at the to of the hull. That's effin gigantic.

Now I am curious, since the Land Raider has a modelled interior (I think?).

Could you fit six of the 2004 Terminators in there? (Probably easier to use them than the 1999 Terminator Captain who released just before the Land Raider...)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Now I am curious, since the Land Raider has a modelled interior (I think?).

Could you fit six of the 2004 Terminators in there? (Probably easier to use them than the 1999 Terminator Captain who released just before the Land Raider...)

The interior of the Land Raider is quite spacious. The 2004 Terminators I never liked because the marine inside the armor would have to be noticeably bigger than the marines in the power armor. That said, I think they could fit in the space provided. They would have to stoop to get out the front door though.

I miiiiiight have a Land Raider with top still unnattached, and I miiiiight have some 2004 Terminators, unfinished, in a box somewhere. (My finished Terminators are all 2nd ed and Rogue Trader vintage) Maybe later I can dig them out and get pics.

Now, could the Crusader fit 8 Terminators or 16 normal models? Probably not.

Oh gosh, don't remind me. Terminator scale was a huge source of drama over in the 30k community a year or so ago.

I will never not be a little smug over GW vindicating me by releasing the updated Cataphractii in exactly the size I predicted they would (whereas seemingly all of reddit was insistent they surely would be the size of the new Primaris Terminators for some reason...) Terminators have long been better scaled than the power armour they released alongside, and power armour has simply caught up.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Oh gosh, don't remind me. Terminator scale was a huge source of drama over in the 30k community a year or so ago.

I will never not be a little smug over GW vindicating me by releasing the updated Cataphractii in exactly the size I predicted they would (whereas seemingly all of reddit was insistent they surely would be the size of the new Primaris Terminators for some reason...) Terminators have long been better scaled than the power armour they released alongside, and power armour has simply caught up.

People obviously assumed, that terminators, being such elites, had grown to be bigger like the nobs and bosses in 40K do. After all, the praetors are clearly bigger than the basic marines and the marine warbosses known as primarchs are even bigger. It makes sense that elite marines had grown to match their rank too.

The plastic Praetors fortunately appear largely an anomaly, the subsequent characters released after them appear normal scale.

(Setting aside the Saturnines, who frankly have to be some kind of pseudo-Dreadnought, I don't care what GW says).

I always found it weird that the Crusader, which must be 50% ammunition hopper by volume to sustain 12 bolters and 2 miniguns, is the one with the extra large transport capacity.
Versus the Godhammer which could just plug the lascannons into the engine generator.
But from a game balance perspective it makes perfect sense.

Although if you take the models literally then none of them have any internal ammo supply at all, and just about 0.5 seconds of ammunition in their external supply (and very vulnerable to enemy fire!). Not very practical

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Although if you take the models literally then none of them have any internal ammo supply at all, and just about 0.5 seconds of ammunition in their external supply (and very vulnerable to enemy fire!). Not very practical

Reminds me of how the resin 30k heavy weapons almost all had backpack-linked ammo supplies of some kind (or at least additional ammo stowage there) whereas the plastic heavy weapons don't, they are fully self-contained guns.

Could be a modelling limitation. Resin is bendy so you could pose the cable how you wanted. The lascannon is presumably connected to the hull's generators through its housing (the 30k land raiders definitely have cables leading into the sponson structure, implying it) but fuel links or ammo belts might have been too much.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I always found it weird that the Crusader, which must be 50% ammunition hopper by volume to sustain 12 bolters and 2 miniguns, is the one with the extra large transport capacity.
Versus the Godhammer which could just plug the lascannons into the engine generator.
But from a game balance perspective it makes perfect sense.

Although if you take the models literally then none of them have any internal ammo supply at all, and just about 0.5 seconds of ammunition in their external supply (and very vulnerable to enemy fire!). Not very practical

Can only assume the Godhammer has some massive capacitor banks tucked away in there to allow multiple las shots while still moving at speed.

Charge the capacitors slowly rather than stressing the engine at once.

Got some time to dork out and to a bit of reference work.

Here are some 2nd ed Terminators compared to a standard 3rd ed+ Marine model and an '04 Terminator, most of them stuck on the same size base to make visual comparison easier. The '95 models and the '98 Captain are all scaled pretty consistently with the same "meat body" size as the standard power armor Marine, with some variation in the '95 models. IMO the '98 Terminator Captain is easily the best of the bunch and the gold standard. As a character model it got the extra love and is sculped more "realistically" than the rest. The '04 model implies a "meat body" that's noticeably quite a bit larger than everything else. (Not to mention those legs look extra weird)


To the question of fitting in a Land Raider. I took the '04 Sergeant and the '98 Captain (cutting off his metal support for ye olde slotta bases, to be thorough!) and took a couple pics with an unfinished Land Raider to see the interior. The Land Raider interior is roomy! The model itself will easily fit at least 5 of either figure.

A few points: There is a drawing of a Land Raider that is a cutaway diagram, which indicates that there is a lot of stuff that is over the passenger compartment, like the driver, space for a top gunner, and some other stuff. The interior would therefore not have so much vertical space as the model has. The Land Raider model was released in 2000, and I would say that the model is built to be in scale with the Marine line at the time, which would be the late 90's metal Terminators and the 3rd ed Power Armor Marines at the time (which are the same scale as the 3nd ed ones, with varying minor proportional alterations). The pics of the Terminators in the door are pretty telling, imo. The '98 Captain appears to fit it almost perfectly. You can imagine him doing a little duck to make it under the lowest part, and then lifting up just a bit after egress. The '04 model looks like the movement would be quite a bit more awkward. Also, despite my doubts in my earlier post, if the Terminators were all in the late 90's scale, I think the Land Raider would legitimately have little trouble fitting 8 of them for the Crusader version. I think if someone were so inclined, they could 3dprint an appropriately posed group of same-scaled Terminators and fit them all in that interior.

All in all I think the Marine line of the 2nd-3rd edition was very consistently scaled. Oldhammer is besthammer and all that. Rah! Rah! Rah!

Thanks for the useful pictures Insectum!

You have changed my perspective on the older terminators.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I always found it weird that the Crusader, which must be 50% ammunition hopper by volume to sustain 12 bolters and 2 miniguns, is the one with the extra large transport capacity.
Versus the Godhammer which could just plug the lascannons into the engine generator.
But from a game balance perspective it makes perfect sense.

Although if you take the models literally then none of them have any internal ammo supply at all, and just about 0.5 seconds of ammunition in their external supply (and very vulnerable to enemy fire!). Not very practical

Can only assume the Godhammer has some massive capacitor banks tucked away in there to allow multiple las shots while still moving at speed.

Charge the capacitors slowly rather than stressing the engine at once.

This is essentially what the Crusader lore has been since its earliest incarnation in Codex: Armageddon in 3rd edition, although they called the removed machinery "generators". Exactly what technomagic form the generators took is unknown but being large capacitor banks is as valid as any other interpretation.

 Haighus wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I always found it weird that the Crusader, which must be 50% ammunition hopper by volume to sustain 12 bolters and 2 miniguns, is the one with the extra large transport capacity.
Versus the Godhammer which could just plug the lascannons into the engine generator.
But from a game balance perspective it makes perfect sense.

Although if you take the models literally then none of them have any internal ammo supply at all, and just about 0.5 seconds of ammunition in their external supply (and very vulnerable to enemy fire!). Not very practical

Can only assume the Godhammer has some massive capacitor banks tucked away in there to allow multiple las shots while still moving at speed.

Charge the capacitors slowly rather than stressing the engine at once.

This is essentially what the Crusader lore has been since its earliest incarnation in Codex: Armageddon in 3rd edition, although they called the removed machinery "generators". Exactly what technomagic form the generators took is unknown but being large capacitor banks is as valid as any other interpretation.

I know that's the lore, but the ammunition hoppers the Crusader would need to replace those capacitors/generators with would be far far larger. Unless they truly are just relying on the external magazines fitted to the guns, which can't be more than a couple seconds of firing at max, each bolter has barely more space than is given to a standard bolter magazine. Plus it replaces the nose heavy bolters with assault cannons, which would be similarly ammunition hungry

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I always found it weird that the Crusader, which must be 50% ammunition hopper by volume to sustain 12 bolters and 2 miniguns, is the one with the extra large transport capacity.
Versus the Godhammer which could just plug the lascannons into the engine generator.
But from a game balance perspective it makes perfect sense.

Although if you take the models literally then none of them have any internal ammo supply at all, and just about 0.5 seconds of ammunition in their external supply (and very vulnerable to enemy fire!). Not very practical

Can only assume the Godhammer has some massive capacitor banks tucked away in there to allow multiple las shots while still moving at speed.

Charge the capacitors slowly rather than stressing the engine at once.

This is essentially what the Crusader lore has been since its earliest incarnation in Codex: Armageddon in 3rd edition, although they called the removed machinery "generators". Exactly what technomagic form the generators took is unknown but being large capacitor banks is as valid as any other interpretation.

I know that's the lore, but the ammunition hoppers the Crusader would need to replace those capacitors/generators with would be far far larger. Unless they truly are just relying on the external magazines fitted to the guns, which can't be more than a couple seconds of firing at max, each bolter has barely more space than is given to a standard bolter magazine. Plus it replaces the nose heavy bolters with assault cannons, which would be similarly ammunition hungry

I think the big difference is range though. The lascannons can be engaging foes long before the bolters would even be in range, let alone effective.

It would absolutely become an issue in a prolonged fight, but it is quite clear that Marines would need constant logistical supply for any prolonged operations anyway. Crusaders are essentially specialised transports for assaulting a single, key, well-defended objective, I don't think longer combat operations are part of their design remit.

Cool post Insectum!

Does make me wonder where the crew goes... If that tiny little Stuart light tank has 4 crew, I can't imagine the hulking Land Raider will make do with less than 2, even with servitor support.

We do know humans -can- crew these (the World Eaters increasingly turned to human crews during the Horus Heresy, as the bloodthirsty Astartes themselves began to lose patience for driving) but Astartes crew in armour seems to be standard.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cool post Insectum!

Does make me wonder where the crew goes... If that tiny little Stuart light tank has 4 crew, I can't imagine the hulking Land Raider will make do with less than 2, even with servitor support.

We do know humans -can- crew these (the World Eaters increasingly turned to human crews during the Horus Heresy, as the bloodthirsty Astartes themselves began to lose patience for driving) but Astartes crew in armour seems to be standard.

As Insectum mentioned, the model doesn't feature the crew compartment, which is slung above the transport bay.

The typical crew is two. Marines are more efficient at multi-tasking anyway and they have the machine spirit aiding them. I believe Marine vehicles _can_ be crewed by a single Marine if needs be, although that would reduce effectiveness and redundancy.

Some of the novels have portrayed the Rhino and Razorback as also not having dedicated drivers normally. Instead the squad being transported are also crew for the vehicle, so if all leave the vehicle is unoccupied. This wouldn't work on tabletop for obvious reasons but it makes sense lorewise.

If I'm not mistaken, there's even more confusion around Marine vehicle crew, because the Vehicle Design Rules mention that Servitors (with BS 4) are manning the vehicle, or maybe weapons on the vehicle. This seems strange because the models themselves were supplied with a Techmarine crew. It could be a Marine vehicle commander and then some Servitors, I suppose. Then again 2nd edition gives crew information on each vehicles datafax, and the crew can leave the vehicles in that edition, and it's "oops, all Marines."

Personally I like the idea that the crew is actually flexible, and that Servitors can fill in for missing spots if needed. I also like that the crew might be pulled from a pool of supernumaries from the techmarine department, but I don't like the idea that each chapter has several hundred extra marines around just for vehicle purposes either.

I'll try to doublecheck that VDR reference a lil later.

And one thing that exists in the lore but is weirdly completely absent in the game are chapter serfs. They would probably be more capable vehicle crew than servitors.

Realistically it makes little sense for power armoured marines to be manning the vehicle. Especially when it's clearly impossible for their shoulders to navigate the hatches!

But using an unarmoured marine, perhaps plugging in directly with his black carapace, would make sense.

I think canonically GW settled on Rhinos having a dedicated driver, but the guy in the #2 seat is the transported squad leader. Which certainly makes sense and I believe is how APCs have usually been crewed historically.

The techmarine in the Rhino kit is certainly an anomaly though. But perhaps we can justify this as being intended for use with the more dedicated combat vehicles like the Predator whom share the same sprue.

 Crimson wrote:
And one thing that exists in the lore but is weirdly completely absent in the game are chapter serfs. They would probably be more capable vehicle crew than servitors.

You say that, but in 30k servitor crew is an upgrade for human vehicles!

We need a 40K Haynes Manual.

Yes we do.

You know it. I know it.

We neeeeeeeeds it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, there's even more confusion around Marine vehicle crew, because the Vehicle Design Rules mention that Servitors (with BS 4) are manning the vehicle, or maybe weapons on the vehicle. This seems strange because the models themselves were supplied with a Techmarine crew. It could be a Marine vehicle commander and then some Servitors, I suppose. Then again 2nd edition gives crew information on each vehicles datafax, and the crew can leave the vehicles in that edition, and it's "oops, all Marines."

Personally I like the idea that the crew is actually flexible, and that Servitors can fill in for missing spots if needed. I also like that the crew might be pulled from a pool of supernumaries from the techmarine department, but I don't like the idea that each chapter has several hundred extra marines around just for vehicle purposes either.

I'll try to doublecheck that VDR reference a lil later.

Marine vehicle crew is very inconsistent and probably varies by Chapter and circumstance.

There is lore stating that dedicated transports are supposed to be the responsibility of the companies (which would take an entire squad just for ten Rhinos/Razorbacks), that members of the armoury crew vehicles (the Techmarine models), and that vehicle crews are drawn from the reserve companies as needed. Probably some combination of all three happens for a given strikeforce.

I think having dedicated crew for the armoury assets makes most sense, as these are specialised roles that would benefit from focussed experience.

I think the most logical answer is that transports like Rhinos and equivalents are crewed by the squad they are assigned to, while actual tanks like Land Raiders, Predators, etc... have dedicated crew from a group of miscellaneous marines who aren't part of a specific company or squads within a company and maybe chapter serfs depending on chapter. And thats not even getting into the crew that would be needed for chapter aircraft and their fleet. Especially since while we know that chapter serfs make up the vast bulk of crew for these things there are enough marines who do it in the background that every chapter must have at least some marines who are not part of the company structure.

Chapters simply wouldn't function if they had to cannibalize half their strength just to man their vehicle pool to support the other half in combat operations, so they have to have a loose group of marines whose sole job is to man the non-transport combat vehicles.

I definitely vote for the reserve company approach. If the squad had to crew their own transport, who will come pick them up if they need extraction hours later? The now abandoned tank, who knows how many blocks away?

Or the "1000 marines" are just the line troops, and there actually is vehicle pilots etc on top of that.