Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/18 18:39:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Dshrike wrote:One of the major things that stuck out to me about the NWN2 graphics were the animations. They felt very stiff. While the NWN1 animations were also stiff (and a bit slide-y) the graphic fidelity wasn't so great so it didn't distract too much.
I also found that the characters looked ... plastic, somehow? They had that really weird sheen on their skin, so much so that it looked like a material, similar to the clothing or armour they'd wear.
Uncanny valley, as you said.
2014/09/18 19:39:33
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Amusingly, I liked NWN2 more than NWN1 myself, but graphics haven't always been that big of an issue for me. Customization choices, gameplay choices, and characterization choices all matter to me a little bit more, I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 19:39:55
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/18 19:44:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Chongara wrote:Anything that a user generates with a set of tools as narrowly defined as a character generator, owes a non-trivial portion of the credit to the designers. Everything the player creates is possible because a designer gave thought to it being available. Trying to claim oneself above, beyond and superior to the creators by virtue of how you've assembled their assets is hyperbolic self-aggrandizing.
You're mixing something up. I'm not claiming myself above the people who created these tools I work with.
I'm claiming myself above those creators who have ultimate influence on a game (in that they can have tools made according to their specs), yet still fail to come up with something that looks as varied as my characters, created within a much more limited framework.
Yes, because all developers only have to worry about their own tastes, instead of the tastes of every person whose ever going to play the game.
If I want to give my character a "Troll Nose" that's all fine and dandy, but when a developer wants to give a generic character a troll nose he has to worry about everyone picking up the box art wanting to pick up the game.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/18 19:45:12
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Which is why customization is better, because it allows a developer to have to worry less about demographics as long as the player can choose options that each demographic can be happy with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 19:45:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/18 20:23:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Amusingly, I liked NWN2 more than NWN1 myself, but graphics haven't always been that big of an issue for me. Customization choices, gameplay choices, and characterization choices all matter to me a little bit more, I think.
I actually did like those aspects more in NWN2 than I did in NWN1. What ended up being the deciding factor for me though, was how clunky the multiplayer for NWN2 ended up being. Anytime a player in the party decided to chat to someone, the game would pause everyone's game, center over the conversation in question, and watch it play out. Imagine having a 4 person party, two people trying to shop, another wanting to check in with locals, and the last one trying to check out his/her equipment. One person would have to talk to the merchant... pause. Then another wants to talk to the same merchant... pause. It was very distruptive, and me and my group couldn't even get to the act 2 without this gameplay mechanic ruining the experience. We're it not for this single gameplay mechanic, NWN2 would be the bee's knees for my group.
NWN1 allowed players to freely talk to to npc's without the game pausing to focus on what's going on in the conversation. It also displayed the conversation in everyone's chat window, and even as text bubbles above the character avatars. No conversation paused the game unless it was a plot related conversation.
The BG series and the IWD series also suffered from conversation pause mechanic that NWN2 incorporated. It feels like a step back for me when I transition from NWN1 to NWN2.
Single-player is great. But, I never cared much for the NWN2 NPC party members... or for NWN1's for that matter.
But anyway, women representation in games. What I'd like to see is a GTA style game with a female protagonist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 20:25:22
Actions define a person.
2014/09/18 21:22:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Admittedly, I never played multiplayer. That sounds like how Divinity: Original Sin does it though, which is a bit bothersome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dshrike wrote: But anyway, women representation in games. What I'd like to see is a GTA style game with a female protagonist.
Likewise. Or a Red Faction: Guerilla style game with one, which is similar to GTA but less "gangster" and more "rebellion".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 21:23:43
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/18 21:55:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Unless you count SR, but they make it quite clear that their vision of the Boss is a generic white man with a fratboy face.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 21:58:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/18 22:51:02
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Which is why customization is better, because it allows a developer to have to worry less about demographics as long as the player can choose options that each demographic can be happy with.
No it's not, and no it doesn't.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/18 23:36:02
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Which is why customization is better, because it allows a developer to have to worry less about demographics as long as the player can choose options that each demographic can be happy with.
No it's not, and no it doesn't.
Please expand.
2014/09/18 23:44:14
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Which is why customization is better, because it allows a developer to have to worry less about demographics as long as the player can choose options that each demographic can be happy with.
No it's not, and no it doesn't.
That doesn't make any sense. For a game where the appearance of the character doesn't really matter (like, say, Mass Effect or Dragon's Age or any MMO, or an Elder Scrolls game, or any FPS), giving the player the option to go nuts with customization is a better choice that forcing them into playing Whitey McWhitedude (which is the default. Always.). So what if the player can make the dude ugly as homemade sin, all the dev has to do is make Studly O'Studmuffin in the engine, screenshot that onto the box art, and ship it that way. Shoot, the customization options could even be a selling point.
And for those games where the player is taking on the role of a pre-determined character, like Drake or Dante or Laura Croft or Geralt of Rivia, then the option there might need to be restricted entirely, or limited to things like outfits and hairstyles, because the character is not fully "owned" by the player. The player is simply stepping into the shoes of a pre-defined character in a story that the player is going to go through, but not create by him or herself.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/09/19 00:20:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Slarg232 wrote:Yes, because all developers only have to worry about their own tastes, instead of the tastes of every person whose ever going to play the game.
Dshrike wrote:What I'd like to see is a GTA style game with a female protagonist.
Mhm. I kept being disappointed that Rockstar doesn't bother. In the latest one they even have three distinctly different main characters.
And yet they're still all dudes.
Gotta give them credit for at least featuring a wide range of different dudes in their games, though, instead of going for the White stereotype.
Psienesis wrote:And for those games where the player is taking on the role of a pre-determined character, like Drake or Dante or Laura Croft or Geralt of Rivia, then the option there might need to be restricted entirely, or limited to things like outfits and hairstyles, because the character is not fully "owned" by the player. The player is simply stepping into the shoes of a pre-defined character in a story that the player is going to go through, but not create by him or herself.
What exactly does a pre-determined character bring to the table, by the way? I don't think I can remember a single game where I would have expected notable differences depending on one's gender or skin colour - excepting games where this would somehow invalidate your role, obviously, such as a Black officer in the US Army before 1917.
2014/09/19 00:37:30
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
In the case of someone like Geralt of Rivia, his white hair and yellow eyes represents a *lot* to the people of the world of The Witcher. If you allowed the player to change this to, I dunno, black hair and green eyes?
Well, Geralt is now no longer the "White Wolf" and, also, looks normal. Witchers don't look normal. They *aren't* normal. This would then require re-scripting sections of the game where references to his appearance ("yellow eyes, vertical pupils... can I study you? For science?") and also breaks away from his fairly iconic look.
This besides the fact that the Witcher video game series is based on a series of novels, so the character pre-dates the video games and has a pre-established appearance.
Also, making Geralt female in the world of the Witcher would put him, as a non-sorceress, at a distinct disadvantage. It's not a pretty fantasy world, it's more like SoIaF, where the world is brutal, ugly and dangerous.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/09/19 02:17:03
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Personally, I'd rather treat the effects of hair colour and gender with appropriate dialogues. It increases the production cost, but I also believe it'd add value to the game and increase the consumer base. There's the question if the investment would actually pay off, but then again I've seen a lot of money put into sillier things.
Besides, isn't the world "brutal, ugly and dangerous" to the PC anyways, on behalf of him not looking normal?
The only thing I'd enforce in this example is the "not looking normal" part, by adding a permanent overlay to the customisation. Like with Dark Side characters in KotOR and SWTOR.
Or rather, the only thing I would enforce if this game were not part of a franchise where the protagonist is already fairly established. Obviously, this would be a no-go for character customisation .. but then again, you could just as well make a game about a new character in the same world, like how DA2 was not just another adventure of the Warden Commander from DA1.
I suppose this is a matter of personal preferences, too, though - I generally rather play my "own" characters as opposed to someone elses.
2014/09/19 10:29:45
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Besides, isn't the world "brutal, ugly and dangerous" to the PC anyways, on behalf of him not looking normal?
Nope, it's brutal to everyone. Non-Humans tend to get it worse, but it's still pretty gakky for humans, due to the existence of monsters and corrupt kings. See: Loc Muinne
It is still a much better world that the Dark Souls world though. That place is just dire.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/19 10:39:10
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/09/19 13:01:07
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Lynata wrote: Personally, I'd rather treat the effects of hair colour and gender with appropriate dialogues. It increases the production cost, but I also believe it'd add value to the game and increase the consumer base.
The problem is that this argument is brought up a LOT and people simply do not fully go through with it. When a genre / game is largely dominated by a certain demographic and another potential demographic is neglible, then the entire effort is uneconomical and should be scrapped. Including another gender is a TON of work. New VA. Tons of texts have to be redesigned. Dialogues have to be changed. Sometimes, even the story has to be changed. Unless there is a high chance that a potential demographic that also is large enough to cover up the additional expenses, will be drawn to the game, doing so would be stupid from a business point of view.
LordofHats wrote: The utter popularity of FemShep would seem to suggest your theory does not stand up when applied to reality
Again: not thought through. First of all, Shepherd was male in most games. FemShep had, iirc 18% which means that 82% chose Shepherd instead. You seem to think that this means that 18% of ME players were female - which would be a mistake.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 13:06:11
I assume no such thing. Merely pointing out that FemShep was extremely well received. 18% is not tiny, and including her wasn't hard. Even though MaleShep was more common, he never received the praise or admiration of FemShep, which has been noted numerous times (though I don't really get why XD)
ME already has female character models and face generation. no extra resources needed to be spent. The thing that needed to be changed was voice overs and only the switching of pronouns really which isn't that hard to do anymore as you can record 'he' and 'she' separately and insert them into the middle of a voice over rather seamlessly these days (a technology in existence even before ME1).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/19 13:13:40
18% isn't "extremely well", to be fair. It's less than 1/5 of the entire player base. Furthermore, there is no reason given for why people prefer her - if people, understandably, prefer the VA, then it's not about gender, but about VA quality.
...because, let's face it, Shepherd's voice is terrible and sounds a bit robotic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 13:14:55
18% is significant as a matter of statistics (as in, not negligible). She was popular enough to even get an alternate cover art for ME3. Even Revan didn't get that popular, and FemRev was popular.
The other part of my argument is simply that it's not as much a struggle to include a female version of the MC as it might seem. If a game already has female models it takes little to model the MC as a woman. Advances in technology have also made it possible to cut voice work into segments, allowing you to insert lines or even single words and phrases into a sentence on command. It's not like the entire conversation has to be rerecorded every time.
I never got on the Jennifer Hale love train XD They had both of Shepard's voice actors return to voice the Trooper class in SWTOR and frankly, it was dreadful, though probably not their fault. The writing for the trooper was just awful... So awful... *shivers*
But then I played the Imperial Agent, and those sexy accents made it all better
Regardless, ME3 did kind of bother me for a different reason-- basically, they depicted every matriarchal or woman-only race to be politically incompetent when the chips are down, while the male-only ones were ready and willing to fight.
Salarians (matriarchal) were total dicks, and Asari were basically denialists whose government was unwilling to fight, even if individual Salarians (the STG) and Asari (Aethyta and Aria) were different-- compare that to Krogan or Turian, patriarchal societies where they were willing to cooperate early on given reasonable favors.
Hell, even the egalitarian race of Quarians was depicted as just trying to take advantage of the situation without really caring for the greater whole, with the women leaders being depicted as either amoral donkey-caves or generally moral but having no real pull on their government-- which is generally how women leaders are depicted in any media really.
It... was some very unfortunate implications that I doubt the writers really thought very carefully about. Can't we get some more variety in how women leaders are depicted rather than just either virgin/noble/good or whore/greedy/evil? At least Aria was reasonable, mind you... but she wasn't really much of a leader to begin with.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/19 13:34:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/19 14:12:41
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
what I find interesting is that people, feminists especially, are quick to notice any form of sexualisation of female characters and yet not males.
E.g. The gears from gears of war. I mean come on, extremely large muscled men being all masculine and grouchy with gravel for vocal chords. now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.
Even better, just look at every space marine ever or what about all the male super heroes in Western comics? women aren't the only ones sexualised
"They mostly come out at night, Moooostly"
2014/09/19 14:19:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
cyphersbootlick wrote: what I find interesting is that people, feminists especially, are quick to notice any form of sexualisation of female characters and yet not males.
E.g. The gears from gears of war. I mean come on, extremely large muscled men being all masculine and grouchy with gravel for vocal chords. now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.
Even better, just look at every space marine ever or what about all the male super heroes in Western comics? women aren't the only ones sexualised
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/19 14:25:47
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
cyphersbootlick wrote: what I find interesting is that people, feminists especially, are quick to notice any form of sexualisation of female characters and yet not males.
E.g. The gears from gears of war. I mean come on, extremely large muscled men being all masculine and grouchy with gravel for vocal chords. now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.
Even better, just look at every space marine ever or what about all the male super heroes in Western comics? women aren't the only ones sexualised
I didn't necessarily mean that they are all made for women although I can see why you thought that. my apologies for not explaining myself what I meant is that they are made this way as a male "power fantasy" and yet this tends to be ignored in favour of the fantasies female sexualisation stems from. Again sorry for not explaining thia
"They mostly come out at night, Moooostly"
2014/09/19 14:59:50
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 15:04:03
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/19 15:04:39
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
~4100
~1660
