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Made in be
Raging Rat Ogre






This nonsense with the new beta deepstrike rules did bring one thing to my attention that wasn't obvious before: the powerlevels in this game are not well thought out.... and they are now the basis for determining how much of your army gets to DS!

3 paladins: 10PL, adding 2 +9PL, adding 7 +22PL

These numbers make no f'ing sense... Especially not when you think about the fact that a stormraven is 15PL, costing 354p while my terminators only cost 275p, but come at a MASSIVE 19PL to be allowed to deepstrike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 11:14:20


The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Pauper with Promise



Colorado

Freezerassasin,

Thank you for finding that! This made my morning. In my mind, that solidifies the argument against GoI being restricted to own deployment zone in T1. I wish it was more explicit in the BRB, but I think based on the Xenos FAQ information, reinforcements / tactical reserves are set up off the board before the game begins. In fact, you could just re-word it as such:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the GREY KNIGHT’S
GATE OF INFINITY ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?

A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the GATE OF INFINITY ability.
However, if the unit used its TELEPORT STRIKE
ability to set up in A TELEPORTARIUM during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.


The unit must have already arrived to use the ability. Not reinforcements. So, yay, I'm going to Gate wherever I want in the 1st round. BUT, with the above said, I think it's fair to say we probably can't deepstrike into our own zone on turn 1 then Gate outside it, just based on what the spirit appears to be with Warptime. We're probably going to have to deploy whatever we want to move on the board before 1st turn and be subject to shooting alphas if we go 2nd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 14:06:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






did GMNDK just get a little better now that you can keep one on the board to GOI into your opponents deployment to shoot without fear of getting shot by first turn DS units ?

 
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





 zedsdead wrote:
did GMNDK just get a little better now that you can keep one on the board to GOI into your opponents deployment to shoot without fear of getting shot by first turn DS units ?

Sort of, you are still vulnerable to long range strikes if you can't hide it or the enemy has indirect fire units. Though you can now use Heed on him on the first turn too, giving him the effective "2+ inv save"


 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




He can still be shot at by other models on the board and even though armies can't DS 1st turn doesn't mean that they can't charge 1st turn. See GSC and slaanesh daemons.
   
Made in ru
Regular Dakkanaut





 GuardStrider wrote:

Though you can now use Heed on him on the first turn too, giving him the effective "2+ inv save"

You should really twist the rules to support that claim, 'cause they are very clearly intended to make 3++ the best possible invulnerable save in the game. I personally would never do it in a friendly game and I have a serious doubt any TO would let you do it at the event.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 14:44:40


 
   
Made in us
Pauper with Promise



Colorado

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
He can still be shot at by other models on the board and even though armies can't DS 1st turn doesn't mean that they can't charge 1st turn. See GSC and slaanesh daemons.


Or Orks using Da Jump, for that matter. Get ready for 30 Boyz lookin' for a good time on turn 1.
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





AstraVlad wrote:
 GuardStrider wrote:

Though you can now use Heed on him on the first turn too, giving him the effective "2+ inv save"

You should really twist the rules to support that claim, 'cause they are very clearly intended to make 3++ the best possible invulnerable save in the game. I personally would never do it in a friendly game and I have a serious doubt any TO would let you do it at the event.

I don't feel like I am twisting the rules at all, one gives you +1 inv save, other gives +1 to saving rolls, the rule doesn't affect this, they didn't faq it and none I've played had any issue with it. If anything I assume they intended to prevent a unit from effectively exploiting a 1+ save threshold and becoming invulnerable. And frankly GKs need any help they get

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 14:57:53



 
   
Made in be
Raging Rat Ogre






They did in fact FAQ that sanctuary can't take an invul to behond 3++.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Since they did FAQ sanctuary to max out at 3++ but didn't say anything about Heed I think that it's clear that 2++ is fine by GW.
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





 Elmir wrote:
They did in fact FAQ that sanctuary can't take an invul to behond 3++.

Yes because people were doing Heed and Sanctuary on Draigo which already had a natural 3+ inv save, so effectively while you had CP he was immortal to anything except mortal wounds. Heed the prognasticators doesn't say it improves the inv saves, it says you add +1 to your save roll, so it doesn't conflict with the rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 15:11:46



 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Since they did FAQ sanctuary to max out at 3++ but didn't say anything about Heed I think that it's clear that 2++ is fine by GW.


Sanctuary was specifically given an errata, Heed will definitely take Draigo to a 2++.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Freezerassasin wrote:
iodan333 wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.


Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.

I'm following the logic like this:

GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.


How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?

That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.

The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.

Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):

REINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed

Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):

TACTICAL RESERVES

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?


Just as some additional information, in Index: Xenos 1 there is a question about how Swooping Hawks interact with Tactical Reserves killing units after turn 3. It is clearly stated that it does not effect them as long as they have already been on the board before turn 3 as the first time the touch the board is when they "arrive", not every time they are set up again. It uses the same remove from the battlefield, then setup more than 9" away language GoI and Shunt do.

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.


This is still Tactical Reserve. Again, the rule stopping you from Gating out T1 is Reinforcements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
iodan333 wrote:
Freezerassasin,

Thank you for finding that! This made my morning. In my mind, that solidifies the argument against GoI being restricted to own deployment zone in T1. I wish it was more explicit in the BRB, but I think based on the Xenos FAQ information, reinforcements / tactical reserves are set up off the board before the game begins. In fact, you could just re-word it as such:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the GREY KNIGHT’S
GATE OF INFINITY ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?

A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the GATE OF INFINITY ability.
However, if the unit used its TELEPORT STRIKE
ability to set up in A TELEPORTARIUM during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.


The unit must have already arrived to use the ability. Not reinforcements. So, yay, I'm going to Gate wherever I want in the 1st round. BUT, with the above said, I think it's fair to say we probably can't deepstrike into our own zone on turn 1 then Gate outside it, just based on what the spirit appears to be with Warptime. We're probably going to have to deploy whatever we want to move on the board before 1st turn and be subject to shooting alphas if we go 2nd.


Don't party just yet. That FAQ question is for the wrong rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See this from another thread:

 kadeton wrote:
This is the big problem for the "UWoF/GoI/Da Jump isn't reinforcements" argument, from p. 6 of the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

Emphasis mine. Seems pretty cut-and-dried, sadly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 15:48:32


 
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that interpretation is correct, it just mentions that using those skills count as movement for the heavy penalty.

The new rule says you can only deploy them on your deployment zone if they enter on the battlefield during the 1st turn and the FAQ Freezerassasin encountered says that if they were already on the battlefield that's what counts as the deployment and using skills with such wording doesn't actually make him do a new deployment (therefore not subject to the 3 turn rule).They were already deployed, so you can use GoI and Shunts on the 1st turn. If they FAQ this rule saying otherwise ok, but I will be considering that I can use Interceptors and GoI till I hear otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 16:06:37



 
   
Made in us
Pauper with Promise



Colorado

Audustum,

There's no restriction on turn 1 deployment in the Reinforcements rule though. The FAQ beta rule on T1 deepstrike restrictions is under Tactical Reserves. So, if Reinforcements is nested into Tactical Reserves, which is what your suggestion is, then anyone who uses any type of remove and re-deploy after turn 3 is deaded, killed good, no save allowed, which I think we all would agree is kind of crazy, but hey, GW.

If Reinforcements and Tactical Reserves are separate, which they seem to be based on that Swooping Hawks FAQ entry, then while for shooting at (Auspect Scan / Interceptor strategems), or shooting with (Heavy weapon penalties as if moved), are affected as if they were coming in as Reinforcements, they are not affected by Tactical Reserve rules. The Swooping Hawks, while a different army's rule, disputes that any Tactical Reserves rule, specific to turn post turn 3 but still relevant, affecting use of any remove / redepoly power as the unit is already deployed on the table. Tactical Reserves is about units deployed in the sky, teleportariums, etc... before the game begins. Not units on the field already. To keep unfair null deployments from happening.

I can't imagine the intention of Gate of Infinity, or Da Jump, or any other power like that is only to be used effectively on turns 2 and 3, being somewhat useless on turn 1 and fatal after turn 4.

That said ... Emailed, hope to see clarification soon.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Leo_the_Rat wrote:


I would recommend that every single GK player on this thread email GW with their questions regarding Deep Striking and how much it affects our FLUFFY playstyle specifically.



A lot of people from here wrote them for the balance update, because they said that they wanted our opinions/suggestions.
We had a lot.

Basically nothing was included in the balance update, except the Smite thing.
I've lost hope that GW cares.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 16:29:07


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 GuardStrider wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that interpretation is correct, it just mentions that using those skills count as movement for the heavy penalty.

The new rule says you can only deploy them on your deployment zone if they enter on the battlefield during the 1st turn and the FAQ Freezerassasin encountered says that if they were already on the battlefield that's what counts as the deployment and using skills with such wording doesn't actually make him do a new deployment (therefore not subject to the 3 turn rule).They were already deployed, so you can use GoI and Shunts on the 1st turn. If they FAQ this rule saying otherwise ok, but I will be considering that I can use Interceptors and GoI till I hear otherwise.


The new blurb is under the heading Tactical Reserves, but it's wording goes beyond that. See paragraph 2.

[
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player's first turn...


Reinforcements begins by saying units that are reinforcements are set up on the battlefield mid-turn. YMDC had a debate on this when we were discussing -1 to Hit penalties and the conclusion was the same. I'd welcome the rules warriors here to start another thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
iodan333 wrote:
Audustum,

There's no restriction on turn 1 deployment in the Reinforcements rule though. The FAQ beta rule on T1 deepstrike restrictions is under Tactical Reserves. So, if Reinforcements is nested into Tactical Reserves, which is what your suggestion is, then anyone who uses any type of remove and re-deploy after turn 3 is deaded, killed good, no save allowed, which I think we all would agree is kind of crazy, but hey, GW.

If Reinforcements and Tactical Reserves are separate, which they seem to be based on that Swooping Hawks FAQ entry, then while for shooting at (Auspect Scan / Interceptor strategems), or shooting with (Heavy weapon penalties as if moved), are affected as if they were coming in as Reinforcements, they are not affected by Tactical Reserve rules. The Swooping Hawks, while a different army's rule, disputes that any Tactical Reserves rule, specific to turn post turn 3 but still relevant, affecting use of any remove / redepoly power as the unit is already deployed on the table. Tactical Reserves is about units deployed in the sky, teleportariums, etc... before the game begins. Not units on the field already. To keep unfair null deployments from happening.

I can't imagine the intention of Gate of Infinity, or Da Jump, or any other power like that is only to be used effectively on turns 2 and 3, being somewhat useless on turn 1 and fatal after turn 4.

That said ... Emailed, hope to see clarification soon.


And how anyone wants to HIWPI is their own business, but don't expect to be able to do it at every tournament or organized play event.

Sadly, I doubt GW answers an e-mail.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 16:18:34


 
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





I get what you are saying but that was written before the tactical reserves rule and imo that FAQ answer is overruling how it works it in this case.


 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Gest wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:


I would recommend that every single GK player on this thread email GW with their questions regarding Deep Striking and how much it affects our FLUFFY playstyle specifically.



A lot of people from here wrote them for the balance update, because they said that they wanted our opinions/suggestions.
We had a lot.

Basically nothing was included in the balance update, except the Smite thing.
I've lost hope that GW cares.


I don't know where you got this quote from but it wasn't me.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 GuardStrider wrote:
I get what you are saying but that was written before the tactical reserves rule and imo that FAQ answer is overruling how it works it in this case.


It was written before, but I think the FAQ's go the other way. They clearly want you to act like a reserves deployment for everything but destruction.

I just don't want people stumbling on this stuff later, thinking it's settled and going to tournaments where TO's and opponents summarily shut down their entire army. They need to know there's a risk to assuming this will work without contacting a TO ahead of time.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Question for all of you- With the new DS rules what models do we have to worry about hitting our DZ Turn 1?

In my meta I've never seen a Basilisk or Manticore. Usually I had to worry about things dropping out of the sky. I was thinking that transports may be a good way for us to deploy (specifically Raiders and Ravens). There aren't many things that can do too much to the GMDK at range and the transports allow us to probably get into better assault range then a T2 DS. As far as I can see there aren't a lot of things that can now threaten troops in transports expecially if we go first.

Just for the record a Basilisk vs a Raider does around 2 wds, vs a Raven around 1.25 wds. We should easily survive an indirect bombardment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 13:45:46


 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp






Dimmamar

The problem with the nerf to DS has to do with weapon types and their ranges. Generally, anti-tank has long range, while anti-infantry has mid/short range. (There are of course exceptions, such as melta and snipers, respectively.)

Most of our shooting is short-range anti-infantry, with some long range anti-tank backup from our bigger stuff (like Razors and Dreads).

But other armies have a lot more long-range anti-tank. Guard and Marines and Eldar can all get easy access to las, lances, missiles, etc. Imagine a Dark Angels Plasma gunline. 36" range won't reach across the board, so you can hide.
But now you have a problem: you WANT to deploy on the line so you can get into charge range quicker, but deploying on the line exposes you to another turn of shooting. Same problem against Reapers.
And a Leman Russ squadron doesn't care WHERE you are on the table, they can shoot you.

Other armies have lots of access to long range firepower. We have very little access. If we wait till T2 to drop, there's a significant chance we will be tabled by the end of T1.

And just for the record, it takes 24 Reaper shots (reroll hits) to kill a Land Raider. It takes 8 Dark Angel Plasma Cannons (reroll hits, reroll wounds of 1, +1D). It takes 6 Marine Lascannons (reroll hits and wounds of 1).

Hide or die.

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Made in us
Executing Exarch




In my meta we play with a lot of terrain so I guess I'm thinking that I may be able to hide a Raider ( or at least get it some cover). We also play with ITC rules so no shooting through the 1st floor openings.

I guess I just like the thought of a unit of paladins getting out of a Land Raider and destroying the enemy. The same could be said for purifiers.
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





I keep hearing about the purifier on the Land Raider tactic, but dunno, aren't the odds of the Land Raider getting close enough to drop the purifiers in smite range very small? I would like to try it but just can't see it working properly


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




I just wanted to let all concerned GK's know there is a thread up in YMDC now discussing stuff like Gate and Da Jump. No consensus yet but feel free to make arguments there:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755153.page
   
Made in dk
Sneaky Sniper Drone




3 games since the new FAQ. And got totally blown of the table each time, because I couldn't get to the opponent fast enough and he basically just sat back and shot me with plasma and tanks... anyone knows wich email to gw I should use, to give them my 2 cents about their beta rules?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Thenord wrote:
3 games since the new FAQ. And got totally blown of the table each time, because I couldn't get to the opponent fast enough and he basically just sat back and shot me with plasma and tanks... anyone knows wich email to gw I should use, to give them my 2 cents about their beta rules?


Sounds fun......

The community team gave me this response, with address which is where I sent my comments.

---
Hi Steven, as we're not the folks who write the rules we couldn't comment on the studio's intentions with any rules. What we would recommend, however, is sharing your feedback with the team at 40KFAQ@gwplc.com. All of the changes made in this update have come following feedback shared with us at that address and that is how we will continue to make changes to Warhammer 40,000.
----1
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Index Sisters are probably the best index Army in the game, as they truly can wreck face by basically being cheaper Marines. They have always synergized well with GK. Unfortunately, just like GK, Sisters are probably better off without non-Sister units. But, if you do go Sisters, then you can go all Deep Strike GK which is pretty nice.

SJ


Initial impression facing them agrees! Those pump out sick number of anti-infantry shots and they can field sooooo much.

I faced all sisters with orks and I was blown apart without having any chance. Albeit I had battlewagon with meganobz and dreadnought softening my army and terrain was unkind funneling my forces to narrow paths but still. That was scary. Tons of BS3+ bolters in power armour. I was nearly outnumbered by power armour guys! (well girls)

They certainly can bring anti-infantry for GK. How much GK needs that though?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 09:40:52


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/01/tneva82-october-goblins/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in dk
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Godeskian wrote:
Thenord wrote:
3 games since the new FAQ. And got totally blown of the table each time, because I couldn't get to the opponent fast enough and he basically just sat back and shot me with plasma and tanks... anyone knows wich email to gw I should use, to give them my 2 cents about their beta rules?


Sounds fun......

The community team gave me this response, with address which is where I sent my comments.

---
Hi Steven, as we're not the folks who write the rules we couldn't comment on the studio's intentions with any rules. What we would recommend, however, is sharing your feedback with the team at 40KFAQ@gwplc.com. All of the changes made in this update have come following feedback shared with us at that address and that is how we will continue to make changes to Warhammer 40,000.
----1


I don't mind loosing and for the most part I play to have fun. But the fun part kinda goes away when you don't really stand a chance. The Dark angels army I played vs. in two of the games weren't even optimised, like at all!

Thanks, I'll try that one out..

In the meantime. what do you guys think about adding land raiders/ stormravens to transport our units while getting som proper dakka, also will this FAQ make purgation squad kinda usefull now? 4 psilencers for 113 points?
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut





Yeah, I don't mind losing but I can't see games with this faq being fun at all without GoI and Shunts.

Anyway going to make my first games with it this Saturday and post results, but will use the interceptors and GoI are ok interpretation if no errata comes by then.

That said, since this faq completely broke the lists I was using I scavenged my miniatures collection and created a frankenstein list with a Outrider GK detachment, a IG battalion and a Sororitas Patrol, don't expect much of it but might be fun, that said, it will be barely a GK list now, only 1141 pts of it will be GK.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 11:12:05



 
   
 
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