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Aw, sorry, forgot to say it should be S2 instead of S4. Otherwise you just get another weapon that kills Marines better than Guardsmen. So a high-shots pathetic-strength weapon to counter hordes.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aw, sorry, forgot to say it should be S2 instead of S4. Otherwise you just get another weapon that kills Marines better than Guardsmen. So a high-shots pathetic-strength weapon to counter hordes.


Well no. Make it s3 else it would never see daylight.

Also Ap +1 helps allready infact you could go sofar and say that if the target has a SV of 3+ or lower then the weapon would be S3 if the target has a SV of 4+ or higher the weapon would have s4

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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IMHO, the problem with Space Marines:

1- They're very restricted, but have a lot of options. I know that sounds insane, but I also have always pictured a squad of Marines being able to walk into combat with their choice loadout for a situation, rather than what their squad's requirements are. I mean, only one faction does this very well and that's the Deathwatch. Rank and File Astartes works fine for Horus Heresy, but even in terms of fluff- Space Marines are broken down into Chapters and have significantly smaller forces present on the battlefield- so them going in with a loadout that's just a smaller variant of what they would do when they were a massive legion... doesn't make sense.

2- Primaris Marines have a stat line that is exactly what a Space Marine should have always been. 2 wounds, 2 attacks, you know. They actually feel like Space Marines, but what holds them back is their weapon restrictions. I say it'd be interesting to just be able to give all Space Marines that basic Stat Line and see what happens- basically, remove the difference between Primaris and Original, make them all the same, and go wild.

3- Chaos Space Marines are just scary-looking punchmeat, with a few nifty tricks but overall aren't as good as their loyalist kin- even though, IMHO, CSM should be terrifying... and the army is "Chaos Space Marines", but ends up often being more like "Massive Horde of Cultists with Scary Spikey Monster Daemon Engine and some guy with a jump pack"

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

"I am Inquisitor Adeptus Doritos and I am far more important than anything you could ever conceive of doing at this, or any other, moment in time! Im not just some random pleb that someone made up on a whim. Im just as important as Karazamabob or any of those other lordy lordys."
 
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
IMHO, the problem with Space Marines:

1- They're very restricted, but have a lot of options. I know that sounds insane, but I also have always pictured a squad of Marines being able to walk into combat with their choice loadout for a situation, rather than what their squad's requirements are. I mean, only one faction does this very well and that's the Deathwatch. Rank and File Astartes works fine for Horus Heresy, but even in terms of fluff- Space Marines are broken down into Chapters and have significantly smaller forces present on the battlefield- so them going in with a loadout that's just a smaller variant of what they would do when they were a massive legion... doesn't make sense.

2- Primaris Marines have a stat line that is exactly what a Space Marine should have always been. 2 wounds, 2 attacks, you know. They actually feel like Space Marines, but what holds them back is their weapon restrictions. I say it'd be interesting to just be able to give all Space Marines that basic Stat Line and see what happens- basically, remove the difference between Primaris and Original, make them all the same, and go wild.

3- Chaos Space Marines are just scary-looking punchmeat, with a few nifty tricks but overall aren't as good as their loyalist kin- even though, IMHO, CSM should be terrifying... and the army is "Chaos Space Marines", but ends up often being more like "Massive Horde of Cultists with Scary Spikey Monster Daemon Engine and some guy with a jump pack"


10/10 description of csm.
Case is they should be able to field that combo, but the actual veterans of the long war should also be usefull.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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Bharring wrote:
"Why are you so butt hurt about gladius?"
My problem is how inaccurately things get remembered. Gladius was hardly the *only* OP gak Marines got. In 7th alone, they had:
-ObSec Spam at the start of the edition
-GravBikes
-CentStars
-SuperBestFriends
-Gladius
-Skyhammer

Yet Marines were still rabidly claimed to be "trash tier" that whole edition. How can we reasonably discuss how badly Marines are doing now, or discuss what would actually need to change, if people mouth off about how bad Marines have it even when they were on top?

None of this is to say Marines were the book that was the most OP the most often. That's clearly been CWE.

I'm not hurt over Gladius. I'm trying to fix the revisionist history that is so rampant with Marines in general.

The whole "Marines got how OP Gladius was" is funny, when the next post is a rabid "But it wasn't OP" post. And is totally at odds with the contemporary threads of the time.


My main complaint as a space marine player the more actual space marines I take, the worst my list gets and it's been that way for several editions.
   
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And, if you look at that list of 7e Marine goodness, while 3 of those features PA Marines, only one aimed to field more than the necessary PA Marines.
   
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Even those lists, the PA dudes aren't what makes them good. Either 300 to 400 free points of transports or a super hit or miss deep strike attack did. If I took PA guys in a standard CAD and rolled up to even a semi competitive game, every marine body I took puts me at a disadvantage. For marines to be useful again GW needs to put superheavies back into apoc land, and tone down how easy it is to spam AP -2 plus weapons.
   
Made in ch
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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Even those lists, the PA dudes aren't what makes them good. Either 300 to 400 free points of transports or a super hit or miss deep strike attack did. If I took PA guys in a standard CAD and rolled up to even a semi competitive game, every marine body I took puts me at a disadvantage. For marines to be useful again GW needs to put superheavies back into apoc land, and tone down how easy it is to spam AP -2 plus weapons.


You could allready see in 7the were cultists really took off instead of base marines that the regular csm /sm dude ain't that good.
7th marks also the loss of the Bolter, chainsword and boltpistol equipment for base csm.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
10/10 description of csm.
Case is they should be able to field that combo, but the actual veterans of the long war should also be usefull.


I discussed it elsewhere about 'rebooting' armies. CSM should be very much like Deathwatch- a lower model count elite army. They should have very flexible loadouts in their squads, like Deathwatch- they can be melee, or shooty, or whatever. Maybe make Chosen a 2-wound Primaris equivalent. Either way, they should have all kinds of wild stuff from Power Flails, Power Scourges, power lance/spears, and all those other things you rarely see.

There should be at least two distinctive types of CSM, kind of like there are now- "Chaos" that straight up uses the warp powers and does all that stuff, and "Renegade" which is more focused on cunning and brutal. Give them different bonuses and options/restrictions, depending on how you choose to run them (example would be Alpha Legion, some are very "Chaos" and some are more "Renegade").

If you want the human cultist/horde troops, then just roll them up into Lost & Damned and they can be taken as allies. Same with Daemon Engines, roll them right up into a Daemonkin codex.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

"I am Inquisitor Adeptus Doritos and I am far more important than anything you could ever conceive of doing at this, or any other, moment in time! Im not just some random pleb that someone made up on a whim. Im just as important as Karazamabob or any of those other lordy lordys."
 
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
10/10 description of csm.
Case is they should be able to field that combo, but the actual veterans of the long war should also be usefull.


I discussed it elsewhere about 'rebooting' armies. CSM should be very much like Deathwatch- a lower model count elite army. They should have very flexible loadouts in their squads, like Deathwatch- they can be melee, or shooty, or whatever. Maybe make Chosen a 2-wound Primaris equivalent. Either way, they should have all kinds of wild stuff from Power Flails, Power Scourges, power lance/spears, and all those other things you rarely see.

There should be at least two distinctive types of CSM, kind of like there are now- "Chaos" that straight up uses the warp powers and does all that stuff, and "Renegade" which is more focused on cunning and brutal. Give them different bonuses and options/restrictions, depending on how you choose to run them (example would be Alpha Legion, some are very "Chaos" and some are more "Renegade").

If you want the human cultist/horde troops, then just roll them up into Lost & Damned and they can be taken as allies. Same with Daemon Engines, roll them right up into a Daemonkin codex.


Iron warriors would vehemently disagree with the last statement but else, making csm veterans the veterans they are supposed to be, would certainly not be something csm players would be opposed too, the distinction between went full Chaos / renegade would also work within many legions and would add quite alot more of decision making.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Iron warriors would vehemently disagree with the last statement but else, making csm veterans the veterans they are supposed to be, would certainly not be something csm players would be opposed too, the distinction between went full Chaos / renegade would also work within many legions and would add quite alot more of decision making.


Well, of course certain Legions/Warbands would have exceptions and special rules. I'd say that would count as one for Iron Warriors for sure.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

"I am Inquisitor Adeptus Doritos and I am far more important than anything you could ever conceive of doing at this, or any other, moment in time! Im not just some random pleb that someone made up on a whim. Im just as important as Karazamabob or any of those other lordy lordys."
 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Aw, sorry, forgot to say it should be S2 instead of S4. Otherwise you just get another weapon that kills Marines better than Guardsmen. So a high-shots pathetic-strength weapon to counter hordes.


Well no. Make it s3 else it would never see daylight.

Also Ap +1 helps allready infact you could go sofar and say that if the target has a SV of 3+ or lower then the weapon would be S3 if the target has a SV of 4+ or higher the weapon would have s4

No S2 +1 ap is quite needed for it to do it's job of abusing lower T models and giving T3 a minor downside and rewarding better armor saves.

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I keep seeing the same things repeated for the descriptions of the problems with power armour - ‘SM are too fragile and their output is too low [compared to Guardsmen]’, ‘...ends up being massive horde of Cultists....’ etc

Basically it seems to me that relatively speaking ‘horde’ units are too cheap when compared to SM of all flavours. It’s not just Guardsmen (though they are the most obvious offender because they outperform pretty much any troop in the game right now) - it’s Boyz, Cultists, Kabalite Warriors, Rangers, Skitari Rangers etc all of them. I don’t believe that troops pay for their ability to create CP (and I think they should) so my suggestion would be to increase the cost of all troops excluding Tacs (but possibly including Scouts - so they don’t remain the de facto best choice for SM players).

Standard Marines aren’t going to get an additional wound and attack at no cost. If you want the Marine with that stat line you have Primaris available.
   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I keep seeing the same things repeated for the descriptions of the problems with power armour - ‘SM are too fragile and their output is too low [compared to Guardsmen]’, ‘...ends up being massive horde of Cultists....’ etc

Basically it seems to me that relatively speaking ‘horde’ units are too cheap when compared to SM of all flavours. It’s not just Guardsmen (though they are the most obvious offender because they outperform pretty much any troop in the game right now) - it’s Boyz, Cultists, Kabalite Warriors, Rangers, Skitari Rangers etc all of them. I don’t believe that troops pay for their ability to create CP (and I think they should) so my suggestion would be to increase the cost of all troops excluding Tacs (but possibly including Scouts - so they don’t remain the de facto best choice for SM players).

Standard Marines aren’t going to get an additional wound and attack at no cost. If you want the Marine with that stat line you have Primaris available.


I'd also increase the cost of any troop with the stats of T3 5+ and T4 6+ at 7ppm minimum. Close combat oriented troops should cost less than shooty ones. Scouts should be elites, like mandrakes, kommandos, etc... even some chapters like SW have scouts only as elites.

If allies can't be banned I don't think there's another way to really fix marines other than making them overpowered. As long as an imperium soup can choose 4-6 points guardsmen there's no reason to take tacs, even if they drop to 10ppm or they gain some better stats, unless it's something really broken like getting +1W bs2+ +1A AP-1 and keeping the 13ppm price. I also think that troops that were ok at 4ppm when blasts and templates existed, most anti infantry weapons were AP5 or better, their weapons couldn't hurt armored stuff, and they didn't generate CPs now they should have a completely different price. Just +1ppm doesn't reflect how much they gained in this edition. I think it's ok to have +1ppm than older editions for boyz since have terrible shooting and don't work as min squads but units like guardsmen which can generate lots of CPs while actually being durable and killy should be hit signifcantly. But I don't see why guardsmen shouldn't be 7ppm other than making GW sell more models.

One of the main reasons why SM struggle is that there's too much competition in their faction. 1000 datasheets to choose from and too many broken combos available for the same faction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/19 10:29:23


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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Standard Marines aren’t going to get an additional wound and attack at no cost. If you want the Marine with that stat line you have Primaris available.


Oh, I'm certain it will come at a cost increase if it happens.

Oh, and with said points price increase... I'm fully certain GW will "make the game even better for larger-scale epic battles". And I'm probably being facetious here, but that's probably how GW says "We're going to make things so you pretty much need to play at higher point costs, so you buy more of our stuff"... because I've learned that any time GW says they're gonna start doing something "awesome", there's more to it...

I mean, you can't say it would would be completely nuts to expect something similar to a Formation/Detachment hybrid system that only allows certain units at a certain points level or something along those lines- there's certainly ways to implement restrictions that do that in some way or another. I could rattle off a few ways, but chances are you've already realized it. It's kind of a thing in Horus Heresy, to some degree. 40k may very well be like "You wanna use the cool big toy, you gotta play at a certain points level and get this specific leader guy toy and buy more smaller toy guys and have at least 3 of this other toy..."

But hey, I've only made a small handful of predictions since the few months before 8th Edition was announced. Not all of them were right, but quite a few of them were spot on. Yeah, people curled their lips and said I was an idiot for that, and that there was no way- dude, I even got accused of working for a GW competitor and being paid to spread disinformation through the community to create false panic and ruin the launch of 8th Edition- that was both baffling and somehow flattering at the same time. But, hey- let me be honest- I don't enjoy being right about these things, I'm not gloating and the writing is pretty much on the wall and obvious. None of them were things I particularly looked forward to, except maybe 'Bigger Space Marines'.

So, yeah. Call it something akin to Kurze's foresight if you like. I'm just certain something's gonna change really soon, or at least in about 5 years or less.

Just as much as I am certain that within a few years, we'll see a new edition and there won't be two different kinds of Space Marines- they'll phase out the old kits, and everything will be Primaris Marines, with the options that standard Marines have- but they won't bother calling them 'Primaris', they'll just be 'Space Marines'. I wouldn't be shocked if they were a bit quieter about this whole Primaris Fluff, or at least had an equally lazy way of explaining the 'merge' between the two types.

You'll very likely be able to use your original older Space Marines, but you won't see any new kits for Marines of that type- they may keep producing some of the older ones, if nothing more than to have weapons and such to put on "Not Primaris Any More" bodies. However, I wouldn't put it past them to make 'weapon upgrade kits' of Original Marine weapons something you gotta get from Forge World.

Oh, and I'm fully aware that no matter how many times GW says "We aren't making the original Space Marines any more, but they are still perfectly valid models to use" you'll still have plenty of salt, moaning, whinging, and gnashing of teeth from people. I mean, yeah- 40k has no shortage of people whose complaints often boil down to "I am not required to buy this new thing and I have the option to use the things I already have for as long as I like, however I am still angry that this new thing is available to others and does not meet my personal preference"- but peppered with all the prose that would make one think that GW is holding our civilization under siege and poisoning our drinking water.

And I'm not really griping about this 'theoretical' change or whatever you want to call this prediction. I'd pretty much be okay with it, I just intend to bring a shovel to maneuver through the salt. I kinda think it's what they should have done to begin with, TBH. But I'm fully aware that some of it would suck for certain people, I suppose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/19 10:35:42


 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

"I am Inquisitor Adeptus Doritos and I am far more important than anything you could ever conceive of doing at this, or any other, moment in time! Im not just some random pleb that someone made up on a whim. Im just as important as Karazamabob or any of those other lordy lordys."
 
   
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Italy

Bharring wrote:


Many Marine players *still* don't believe that they've ever been OP, much less that they're the second-most-consistently-good book over the last 3 editions.


Yeah, apparently if they can't table any opponent in turn 1 with no effort they'll always consider their army trash tier

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 Blackie wrote:
Bharring wrote:


Many Marine players *still* don't believe that they've ever been OP, much less that they're the second-most-consistently-good book over the last 3 editions.


Yeah, apparently if they can't table any opponent in turn 1 with no effort they'll always consider their army trash tier


yes, somehow having the opinion that IG squads are undercosted translated in to a 100% turn 1 win rate.



3- Chaos Space Marines are just scary-looking punchmeat, with a few nifty tricks but overall aren't as good as their loyalist kin- even though, IMHO, CSM should be terrifying... and the army is "Chaos Space Marines", but ends up often being more like "Massive Horde of Cultists with Scary Spikey Monster Daemon Engine and some guy with a jump pack"

That is my expiriance too. The army is 1ksons or csm or something, and then the deployed things are 4 demon princes, gracefuly avoiding the rule of 3, some 1ksons HQs and bucket load of cultists. Sometimes there is also a renegade knight there. 0 csm models in a csm list, 2-3 1ksons models in 1ksons list.

   
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Karol wrote:
That is my expiriance too. The army is 1ksons or csm or something, and then the deployed things are 4 demon princes, gracefuly avoiding the rule of 3, some 1ksons HQs and bucket load of cultists. Sometimes there is also a renegade knight there. 0 csm models in a csm list, 2-3 1ksons models in 1ksons list.


Yeah. Now imagine you've bought an entire Alpha Legion army for Horus Heresy, decide to abandon playing Horus Heresy and just take all these cool models to 40k and use what you can...

...pretty much useless or pointless to even bother. Embarrassing for me, wasting that money, considering how frugal I tend to be with my money, even with my hobbies and recreation.

Fortunately, I managed to retain all the stuff and a most of the things have been stripped and repainted/repurposed for something else.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

"I am Inquisitor Adeptus Doritos and I am far more important than anything you could ever conceive of doing at this, or any other, moment in time! Im not just some random pleb that someone made up on a whim. Im just as important as Karazamabob or any of those other lordy lordys."
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Karol wrote:
That is my expiriance too. The army is 1ksons or csm or something, and then the deployed things are 4 demon princes, gracefuly avoiding the rule of 3, some 1ksons HQs and bucket load of cultists. Sometimes there is also a renegade knight there. 0 csm models in a csm list, 2-3 1ksons models in 1ksons list.


Yeah. Now imagine you've bought an entire Alpha Legion army for Horus Heresy, decide to abandon playing Horus Heresy and just take all these cool models to 40k and use what you can...

...pretty much useless or pointless to even bother. Embarrassing for me, wasting that money, considering how frugal I tend to be with my money, even with my hobbies and recreation.

Fortunately, I managed to retain all the stuff and a most of the things have been stripped and repainted/repurposed for something else.


Ouch, that hurts, but atleast you had alpha legionaires, could've been worse and you 'd had word Bearers.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
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 Blackie wrote:
Bharring wrote:


Many Marine players *still* don't believe that they've ever been OP, much less that they're the second-most-consistently-good book over the last 3 editions.


Yeah, apparently if they can't table any opponent in turn 1 with no effort they'll always consider their army trash tier


Interestingly that was a thing in 2nd ed. Chaos marines could do it, but not loyalists. Orks could paralyze entire armies and in effect win turn 1.
.
   
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On moon miranda.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I keep seeing the same things repeated for the descriptions of the problems with power armour - ‘SM are too fragile and their output is too low [compared to Guardsmen]’, ‘...ends up being massive horde of Cultists....’ etc

Basically it seems to me that relatively speaking ‘horde’ units are too cheap when compared to SM of all flavours. It’s not just Guardsmen (though they are the most obvious offender because they outperform pretty much any troop in the game right now) - it’s Boyz, Cultists, Kabalite Warriors, Rangers, Skitari Rangers etc all of them. I don’t believe that troops pay for their ability to create CP (and I think they should)
The problem is, how do you measure that? CP's aren't generated in any uniform manner (e.g. armies can be made from many different types of detachment and Troops don't generate CP the same in all detachments), the value of Stratagems vary, and even the number of allowable detachments can fluctuate depending on what type of game you're playing (for instance, if you're using Matched Play rules, but not using the Organized Event rules), make measuring this basically impossible. CP's aren't something GW is factoring into points cost right now really for this reason. Likewise, GW's whole intent with the bigger detachment bonuses was to encourage lots of use of Troops units in the first place. Additionally, it's not like all of these other armies with the above Troops always end up with more CP, Orks can't do a Battalion any cheaper than SM's can unless they're going for Grots instead of Boyz.

More to the point, nobody is going to pay significantly more for these weenier troops units. It may make some people happy that SM's aren't as bad by comparison, but all it's going to do for these other armies is shift usage of those Troops units to absolute minimum and they'll all just end up the way SM's are now where everyone treats the Troops units as a minimum tax to be paid and avoided.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
Ouch, that hurts, but atleast you had alpha legionaires, could've been worse and you 'd had word Bearers.


I'll get over it. I shouldn't be so whiny about it. Most of the stuff, I managed to find another use for it after some stripping and scrubbing. And sometimes I'll get bored and put together a weird combo of their upgrades and use them for something like Minotaurs or something in my Deathwatch guys. My goal is honestly to have every Deathwatch marine- Primaris included- in my army have a unique appearance with, with no two alike each as their own character.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

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UK

Also be more honest to name the thread - Problems with Loyalist non Primaris Marines as it is so specific.

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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I discussed it elsewhere about 'rebooting' armies. CSM should be very much like Deathwatch- a lower model count elite army. They should have very flexible loadouts in their squads, like Deathwatch- they can be melee, or shooty, or whatever. Maybe make Chosen a 2-wound Primaris equivalent. Either way, they should have all kinds of wild stuff from Power Flails, Power Scourges, power lance/spears, and all those other things you rarely see.

There should be at least two distinctive types of CSM, kind of like there are now- "Chaos" that straight up uses the warp powers and does all that stuff, and "Renegade" which is more focused on cunning and brutal. Give them different bonuses and options/restrictions, depending on how you choose to run them (example would be Alpha Legion, some are very "Chaos" and some are more "Renegade").

If you want the human cultist/horde troops, then just roll them up into Lost & Damned and they can be taken as allies. Same with Daemon Engines, roll them right up into a Daemonkin codex.


I have always found it extremely odd how the Heretic Legion's weapons have been the same old same old weapons since the Horus Revolution even though they have access to the Dark Mechanicus with their unfettered ability to experiment and use warp/demon stuff. Not to mention good ol' pillaging. Compared to the loyalist and their Admech who are supposedly not allowed to innovate, yet have doubled the number of marine infantry weapons. It only becomes more strange as GW puts out more special characters (Haarken Worldclaimer, Obsidius Mallex--the Blackstone Fortress dude) that don't have weapons off the apparently in-universe, pre-approved Chaos Space Marine weapon list. I am still perplexed why Chosen loss double-lightning claws when there is a an actual easy-build model with that exact load out. Just like I always found it odd how other than the 20 man squad size, CSM apparently respect the Codex Astartes when it comes to squad composition. And again, this becomes all the more odd with Primaris seemingly not doing so (as in the Hellblasters being an all plasma weapon squad).

I completely with you that CSM should be able to field a large variation of weapons in non-codex compliant numbers. Chosen are a good starting point, and they would be better if the Black Legion could field them as troop options again. However, that still doesn't really address the dearth of options. I don't know. Maybe it is because I just play Kill Team now, and I am getting a little tired of looking at all those grenade launchers and missile launchers the loyalists have then look at my Heavy Bolter plus Plasmagun, Meltagun or Flamer options and sign.

Of course, even expanding the weapon options still doesn't necessarily fix the issue with out easy it is to kill space marines. I do kinda expect GW to put out a Primaris-equivalent CSM if for no other reason than it is already hard for players to take CSM as real in-universe threat given how kinda pathetic they play. It becomes more so when their forces only come up to the 'heroes' shoulders. Maybe White Dwarf should have a cover with a Primaris being grappled by a bunch of CSM much like you would see a guardsman being grappled by a bunch of grots.

   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





Chaos Marines, at least a lot of them, are frequently beating the absolute crap out of people, xenos, daemons, each other, and loyalists. They actively hang around the horrors of the warp and bargain with dark beings. For hundreds of years, this is apparently "a normal Tuesday".

...but they don't get ATSKNF and run like pansies if a couple of dudes get shot by guardsmen.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

"I am Inquisitor Adeptus Doritos and I am far more important than anything you could ever conceive of doing at this, or any other, moment in time! Im not just some random pleb that someone made up on a whim. Im just as important as Karazamabob or any of those other lordy lordys."
 
   
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Across the Rubicon

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Chaos Marines, at least a lot of them, are frequently beating the absolute crap out of people, xenos, daemons, each other, and loyalists. They actively hang around the horrors of the warp and bargain with dark beings. For hundreds of years, this is apparently "a normal Tuesday".

...but they don't get ATSKNF and run like pansies if a couple of dudes get shot by guardsmen.


Eh, +1 Leadership and MSU for me. Never felt the need for And they Shall Know No Rules. At least not in 8th edition. I'm sure CSM marines would have to pay like 2 ppm for something like that with GW Chaos tax.

   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I discussed it elsewhere about 'rebooting' armies. CSM should be very much like Deathwatch- a lower model count elite army. They should have very flexible loadouts in their squads, like Deathwatch- they can be melee, or shooty, or whatever. Maybe make Chosen a 2-wound Primaris equivalent. Either way, they should have all kinds of wild stuff from Power Flails, Power Scourges, power lance/spears, and all those other things you rarely see.

There should be at least two distinctive types of CSM, kind of like there are now- "Chaos" that straight up uses the warp powers and does all that stuff, and "Renegade" which is more focused on cunning and brutal. Give them different bonuses and options/restrictions, depending on how you choose to run them (example would be Alpha Legion, some are very "Chaos" and some are more "Renegade").

If you want the human cultist/horde troops, then just roll them up into Lost & Damned and they can be taken as allies. Same with Daemon Engines, roll them right up into a Daemonkin codex.


I have always found it extremely odd how the Heretic Legion's weapons have been the same old same old weapons since the Horus Revolution even though they have access to the Dark Mechanicus with their unfettered ability to experiment and use warp/demon stuff. Not to mention good ol' pillaging. Compared to the loyalist and their Admech who are supposedly not allowed to innovate, yet have doubled the number of marine infantry weapons. It only becomes more strange as GW puts out more special characters (Haarken Worldclaimer, Obsidius Mallex--the Blackstone Fortress dude) that don't have weapons off the apparently in-universe, pre-approved Chaos Space Marine weapon list. I am still perplexed why Chosen loss double-lightning claws when there is a an actual easy-build model with that exact load out. Just like I always found it odd how other than the 20 man squad size, CSM apparently respect the Codex Astartes when it comes to squad composition. And again, this becomes all the more odd with Primaris seemingly not doing so (as in the Hellblasters being an all plasma weapon squad).

I completely with you that CSM should be able to field a large variation of weapons in non-codex compliant numbers. Chosen are a good starting point, and they would be better if the Black Legion could field them as troop options again. However, that still doesn't really address the dearth of options. I don't know. Maybe it is because I just play Kill Team now, and I am getting a little tired of looking at all those grenade launchers and missile launchers the loyalists have then look at my Heavy Bolter plus Plasmagun, Meltagun or Flamer options and sign.

Of course, even expanding the weapon options still doesn't necessarily fix the issue with out easy it is to kill space marines. I do kinda expect GW to put out a Primaris-equivalent CSM if for no other reason than it is already hard for players to take CSM as real in-universe threat given how kinda pathetic they play. It becomes more so when their forces only come up to the 'heroes' shoulders. Maybe White Dwarf should have a cover with a Primaris being grappled by a bunch of CSM much like you would see a guardsman being grappled by a bunch of grots.


Supply Lines. Unlike the Imperium, the traitor forces under Abaddon and all that do not have full access to equipment and gear. Their equipment is almost always scavenged and the dark mechanicus is very secluded they don't serve anyone. Hell we know for instance they had massive issues with recruitment for the CSM forces in the eye for decades before they began the first black crusade. Their supply lines are always thin, their equipment almost always stolen. Even the black legion suffers from this.

The traitors have and never have been united. The Legion wars between the CSM depleted many of the resources that they had. As the Dark Mechanicus especially just went into full hiding. It also stripped the entirety of the Emperor's Children of their forces and shattered them permanently.

It makes sense for the CSM to have daemon possessed Astartes or something similar to Gal Valrok to return to the fold. I don't think we will see primaris CSM but instead Possessed that dwarf Primaris.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Chaos Marines, at least a lot of them, are frequently beating the absolute crap out of people, xenos, daemons, each other, and loyalists. They actively hang around the horrors of the warp and bargain with dark beings. For hundreds of years, this is apparently "a normal Tuesday".

...but they don't get ATSKNF and run like pansies if a couple of dudes get shot by guardsmen.

And this is why they should have Vet stats at minimum and we remove the Chaos Marine entry. Then we can move Chosen to troops where they belong.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Chaos Marines, at least a lot of them, are frequently beating the absolute crap out of people, xenos, daemons, each other, and loyalists. They actively hang around the horrors of the warp and bargain with dark beings. For hundreds of years, this is apparently "a normal Tuesday".

...but they don't get ATSKNF and run like pansies if a couple of dudes get shot by guardsmen.

And this is why they should have Vet stats at minimum and we remove the Chaos Marine entry. Then we can move Chosen to troops where they belong.


So basically Fewer marines but gods amongst marines?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Chaos Marines, at least a lot of them, are frequently beating the absolute crap out of people, xenos, daemons, each other, and loyalists. They actively hang around the horrors of the warp and bargain with dark beings. For hundreds of years, this is apparently "a normal Tuesday".

...but they don't get ATSKNF and run like pansies if a couple of dudes get shot by guardsmen.

And this is why they should have Vet stats at minimum and we remove the Chaos Marine entry. Then we can move Chosen to troops where they belong.


So basically Fewer marines but gods amongst marines?

You read me like a book.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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