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Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

To get right off, I've been reading the forums and talking with people and friends. And I've felt this could be hopefully a constructive thread. I know from some threads that people get very hyper about what is best or what is worst. But I always felt there is time for self reflection on our power armored friends. Lately I have yet to face a single space marine opponent in months. I play regularly and even I stopped playing with my space marines as I was tired of losing every single game. So I picked up my eldar Uthwe army and wrecked most factions with my dark reaper spam.

But lets get to the crux of this thread....


Dakknauts, what do you think is wrong with Space Marines?
*And Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, And all the other flavors of space marines

I would love to hear your thoughts. Because of this, I have spoilered my own thoughts. Read at your own risk.



Suggestions
Spoiler:

Lets just make this simpler similar to orks we can have it so that a full squad IN GENERAL for space marines gives :

+1 Attack and +1 LD
and counts as two selections for the purpose of a detachment.
Some units (Tacticals, Intercessors, Terminator squads) can have up to 3 special weapons / heavy weapons.
All Sarges are upgraded to Veteran Sarge and have +1 wound

*encouraging people to have larger squads overall.*

Then we give termies, vanguard vets, sternguard their special rules back...

We give intercessors and tacticals their own unique 'volley' fire ability which allows them to unload all of their weapons in a single turn (shoot twice with bolt weapons) but cannot fire the next turn or we make it so they can't rapid fire the next turn.

Then we give land raiders an ability to shoot into melee combat, and give them a higher toughness and wound count. give them an ability to shrug off glancing shots, and all their equipment options are much cheaper. (decrease their cost to 250pts, 225 for crusader, 230 for redeemer)

Venerable Dreadnought gain : Ancient Wisdom and can be taken as a HQ choice. Ancient Wisdom allows them to give a squad nearby their BS Skill (must be a space marine from the same chapter)

Make all chapter rules work for all space marine units...

Give marines a benefit for when they fight in monoarmies:


Decrease special weapon costs for melta and flamer.

Give space marines back their bolter drill ability as a stratagem that works on all space marine units with 'bolt' in their profile.

Unload - Space marines fire two times in a turn but cannot fire the next turn and this ability cannot be used again.

Land Raider- Can disengage from combat and fire into combatants they are engaged with.

Vindicator - Just Remove it.

Hellblasters - 2pts less, 10pts less for all the hellblaster equipment, give them an anti-infantry 'gattling gun' variant. Name changed to Support Unit

Reivers moved to troop choice 3pts less.

Scouts Decrease to 10pts ppm. (Might not be good)

Tactical Squad - Decrease to 12ppm, if you have a full squad of tactical space marines they count as two troop choices when fulfilling the requirements of a detachment position, they do not take up an additional troop slot. In addition, they gain +1 attack and +1LD. And may use combat squads as normal.

Terminators ignore 1 ap on anything that has less strength than terminator's current toughness.

Apothecaries can take combi-weapons/storm bolters.

Librarians - give them back their gates of infinity, vortex of doom, force dome, and avenger.

Avenger - Assault D6 - Strength 5 Ap -3 D1 - this weapon automatically hits.

Can manifest on a 7

Force Dome

All units nearby within 8" gain a +5 invulnerable save.

Warp charge 7

Vortex of Doom

S 10 Ap -6 Heavy 2 D6 D - ignores all - to hit

Warp Charge of 5

Gates of Infinity
-5th Edition Codex-
Can either travel by himself or take a single unit into the warp into deep strike then deploy 24". But if he travels with a unit increases the chance of an issue, if a double is rolled one member of the unit is automatically removed.

Warp Charge of 8


Centurion / Devastator / Predators / Land Raider / Falchion / Repulsor - Titan Hunters (Strategem 1CP)

When Equipped with a lascannon or lascannon destroyer for every 6 rolled on to hit deals 2 hits instead of the normal 1 hit when the targeting unit is firing upon TITAN and SUPER HEAVY Units.

Tactical Squad / Devastator / Stern Guard / Terminators - Bolter Training (1CP)
May fire an additional time when equipped with any bolt weapons. If this unit excluding Terminators moves this turn they cannot use this strategem and may not fire twice with a bolt weapon.

Vanguard Veterans - Gain Heroic Intervention - If a jump pack is equipped vanguard vets can elect to perform a heroic intervention, they cannot shoot the turn they arrive from deep strike but can assault (provided they are close enough) and gain +1 attack if they make a successful charge.

Sternguard Veterans - Special Ammunition - Check 5th edition codex.....

Terminators - Relentless - Ignores all - to hit on heavy weapons...

Terminators - Ceramite Shell - Ignore 1 ap.

Honor Guard - May equip storm shields...

Chapter Champion - May equip stormshield.... or a powe axe, or a relic blade...

Drop Pod reduced in cost to 40pts.

Techmarine - Forgemaster for an additional 20pts gain +2 BS and 6Ws may equip a conversion beamer in addition to a servo arm and servo harness. may use bolster defenses.

Bolster Defense (Imperial Fists Only Chapter Tactic),

For imperial fists, place three shielded walls or cover improve the save of that terrain by +1.
Select one shield wall to improve the save of that terrain by +1

Raven Guard (Chapter Tactic)
Infiltrate.... (Why wasn't this a thing already?!) All infantry, special characters, and DREADNOUGHTS can infiltrate. In additional all jump pack armed units can immunity to overwatch, they may ignore overwatched units entirely.

Stratagem
Sabotage - Select an enemy unit that is deployed this game, that unit suffers -1 to hit for the rest of the game. (2cp) (can only be used once!)

Iron Hands (Chapter Tactic)
Iron within - All Infantry models gain +1 to their toughness.

Stratagem -

Binary Diversion - Select a friendly iron hands character and then one of your opponent's vehicle or titan unit that is within 6" that unit cannot fire or make attacks this turn. (2CP)

White Scars (Chapter Tactic)
Swordstorm - On charge, if an infantry, jump pack, or bike unit is within 1" for every model in the squad roll a d6, on a 6+ that unit suffers a mortal wound. All characters hit on 5+.

Stratagem
Masters of the Wind- Select a unit of infantry or bike unit, this unit gains an additional 2" to their movement and their assault and charge for one turn only. (1cp)

Ultramarines (Chapter Tactic)
Progressive Assault - Units that fire at the same unit can call out or mark a single unit (Can only be done once per a turn from all ultramarines for that turn). Any Ultramarines that fire at that marked unit gain +1 to hit with all ULTRAMARINE units and ignore all penalties to hit. 1s will always fail. (Does not work on scouts or servitors)

Stratagem
Tactical Retreat - When an Ultramarine unit is charged, this unit may elect to retreat during your opponent's charge (2cp)

Salamanders (Chapter Tactic)
Masters of the Forge - All flame, thunder hammers, and melta weapons are half cost. Any weapons that are decimal are rounded up.

Stratagem
Holy Flame of Nocturne - Roll an additional D6 when firing with flame weapons from a single unit this turn (2cp)

Black Templar (Chapter Tactic)
SUFFER NOT THE UNCLEAN TO LIVE - On rolls of 6 when on charge or attacking in close combat, gain an additional hit. If this unit has charged this turn gain an additional attack if a charge was successfully made by the unit possessing this ability in addition to the attacks generated from Suffer, not the unclean to live!

Stratagem
Sword Brethren - select a unit of veterans they gain +1 attack and +1 to their leadership to their profile to a max of 3(1/2/3 CP)

These chapter tactics can either be: Only for mono marine factions... or cost 1 cp.... (similar to detachments but are given a rule automatically)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/21 22:55:37


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






The problem is marine fanboys that expect them to be space Jesus because the fluff says one marine can conquer a planet and get outraged every time they fail a 2+ save. The solution is to accept that even marines are still basic infantry, make this clear in the fluff, and maybe drop their points a bit.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Tacoma, WA, USA

At the most basic level, the basic Space Marine statline is overpriced by GW. Against S3/4 AP0 D1 attacks, a Space Marine is nearly twice as resilient as a Guardsman. Against Toughness 3/4 targets, a Space Marine is nearly twice as deadly as a Guardsman. But the moment you wander away from basic weapons, Space Marines become less and less powerful compared to models with less "impressive" basic stats.

Yet, a Tactical Marine (the baseline for Space Marine Infantry) is 325% as expensive as a Infantry Squad Guardsmen (the baseline for Imperial Guard Infantry). Even factoring in additional rules such as ATKNF, Bolt Pistols, and Krak Grenades, there is simply no way this makes sense. It puts Marines on the blackfoot when facing other infantry. Instead of stomping them into the ground, they end up suffering a death of a thousand cuts from the hordes or less expensive special weapons they end up facing.

In short, Marines need either a radical rewrite to be worth their points or a drastic revision to the points values of all Infantry units so that they can actually compete under their current stats.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran






They don’t work as intended.

In general they should quite a bit more damage than they do.

Fluff wise, they are a blitzkreig type shock and awe force that strikes the enemy at its weakest point and breaks it with overwhelming force.

Their current competitive list...gun line. How boring can you get?

They should be a force to reckon with at short range. In both melee and shooting.

Almost none of their rules reflect this. Their stat line is over-costed and subpar.

A lot of people think that marines should be more survivable, when in reality they need to do more damage to reflect their fluff and to fix the army in general.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





CA2018 was a good opportunity for GW to lower the cost of marines drastically and see their impact before a new marine Codex, hopefully to come in 2019.

Sure they need new rules but for short term gains a 2 point drop to marines and having tactics apply to vehicles would have helped them a long way.

Had a look at your inputs. While I agree that 3+ armor isnt everything, its also an issue because people dont take enough of it so the few squads that do get taken get removed pretty quickly.

As for combat squads, its not point costed into the space marine cost so becomes irrelevant.

The thing I think they could have done was give marines an option to upgrade to a primaris bolter. It makes no sense that the soldiers that have been fighting for the last 10,000 years do not get access to new gear simply because GW didnt feel like it.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




The forced distinction between Primaris and OldMarines is hurting both. It’s not hard to make Marines in general reasonably strong and fitting to theme, but unfortunately GW won’t do it for marketing and sales reasons.

Marines would work fine if every non-Primaris model got the +1W/+1A and 1 better AP on Bolters/Storm Bolters/Combi-Bolters/Hurricane Bolters//Heavy Bolters/combat knife/chainsword, and the Primaris distinction was removed to let Hellblasters et al use transports. Make said standardised Marine profile 15pts including weapons and make Stalker/Assault Bolters a free sidegrade rather than costing points. Make a basic Terminator body 23pts and drop the costs of all melee weapons. From there you can add the snowflake elements for various Chapters.

It ain’t perfect, but it’s effective.
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
The problem is marine fanboys that expect them to be space Jesus because the fluff says one marine can conquer a planet and get outraged every time they fail a 2+ save. The solution is to accept that even marines are still basic infantry, make this clear in the fluff, and maybe drop their points a bit.


I am not sure the fluff has to change, and GW wont change it. I dont feel like fluff has to reflect accurately to a table top game. Even the strongest of fluff characters can die easily in 40k. 100 space marines can conceivable lose to 500 guardsmen on the table top. That doesnt make sense in the fluff by any stretch.

When a marine has to be balanced to a guardsmen you know its going to mess with the fluff either way.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Broadly speaking, next to most other infantry in the game, Marines aren't too far out of place, a tad expensive but not awful for the most part.

The problem is when the game starts and heavy weapons fire immediately zaps 30-40 infantry without much caring about their toughness or armor, the differences between infantry becomes rather irrelevant. As the scale of the game has pushed upward and things like Custodes and Knights come into the game, infantry detail has been compressed in relevancy.

I think at this point, a quick and dirty fix would be to make them something like 10ppm for a tac squad/equivalent.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





What's wrong is that the basic Marine statline, and the basic Marine as a whole, just doesn't have a place in the game. And I'm honestly not sure it ever has. What is their purpose? At best, it's to hold down objectives while hiding from an opponent. They don't have the muscle to actually kill anything. Problem is, they also don't have the survivability to hold up either to damage. If you want something to hold objectives, you take cheaper things, because having a model not getting shot and holding an objective is worth the same regardless of how many points the model is or how survivable it is. If you want something to kill opponents and capture their objectives, you go for the bigger, stronger, tougher stuff that needs to engage.

At the end of the day, a generic Tactical Marine won't be selected until it costs competitively less per model for what it does compared to weaker stuff, but still costs more per unit.

So;
The game needs to realize that "tax units" are a thing, and work within that system. In a tax-unit system, being the cheapest is a quality all on its own, and just as valuable as lethality, movement, and survivability. These units of cheap models should, first, cost more compared to what they're bringing to the table, especially when they're so tough (though that's more of the current system, rather than how 40k works as a whole). In essence, your Elite units should cost less for the models, but more for the unit. Your "tax-filler" units should cost more for the models, but less for the unit. In doing so, you introduce the choice of "have this tax-filling unit that makes the rest of your army better by allowing you to spend more on stuff that isn't tax" or "have this tax-filling unit that is a bit better on its own, but the rest of your army might suffer a bit because you'll have less points to spend on stuff that isn't tax".

Example:

Tactical Marines - MUST take unit of 10 models, up to max of 20 models. 13 points per model. 130 points total for base unit.

Scouts - MUST take unit of 5 models, up to max of 10 models. 13 points per model. 65 points total for base unit.

The Scouts are categorically worse, except for certain situations due to Sniper Rifles (camo cloaks shouldn't be a bonus that makes them as survivable as Space Marines without the points for the unit going over 100 minium). You take Scouts because they're fewer points for the minimum sized unit, and you simply need something to stand somewhere. But you might take a unit of Tacticals still because you want a unit that can survive better while still holding the objective. The Tacticals cost just as much per model for a better model, but you're committing to spending more points on a unit that's still just a Tactical Marine.


That's something that should be factored into the game; sometimes being less points is the thing that's worthwhile. Same with Cultsts vs Chaos Space Marines;

Chaos Space Marines - Unit size 5-20. 12 points per model. Base unit is 60 points.
Cultists - Unit size 10-30. 6 points per model. Base unit is 60 points.

Same idea here. Cultists are hugely worse in everything except wound count, and they cost exactly as much for the base unit. Here, you got a choice where you might want more wounds some times, and more resilience and lethality from your tax unit at other times.


Grey Knights and other similar forces without lower-cost units suffer a further problem, though it's more an Imperial problem. Guardsmen. They're so cheap, you use the Guard for generating Command Points, and you're basically in the same situation as before; base unit costs for Guard are just so low. This just needs to be designed around. Having the whole "Platoon" structure like before could alleviate this by, again, forcing you to spend more for the base "platoon" of 25 Guardsmen, even though their cost per model is low.

Guardsmen - Platoon of 2 Infantry Squads (10 men each), plus a Platoon Command Squad (5 men). 6 points per model. Base Platoon is 150 points.
Conscripts - Unit size 10-30. 6 points per model. Base unit is 60 points.

You want those orders? Pay the taxman and commit to a lot of Guardsmen! They cost the same amount as a Conscript, but filling out with Conscripts frees up more of your list for tanks. Problem? Conscripts are worse in just so many ways.



So long as cheap stuff is "as effective" as their comparable points cost in bigger, tougher, stuff, then you get hurt on the scale. Note, at the high end, you need to be careful too. Those really big, really strong units need to pay more of a premium for what they are achieving. You should be using the tax-filler cheap units to access these things. Low-end items should be cheaper per model, but more for units. High-end models should be more expensive per model, but cheaper per unit.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





 Yarium wrote:
What's wrong is that the basic Marine statline, and the basic Marine as a whole, just doesn't have a place in the game. And I'm honestly not sure it ever has. What is their purpose? At best, it's to hold down objectives while hiding from an opponent. They don't have the muscle to actually kill anything. Problem is, they also don't have the survivability to hold up either to damage. If you want something to hold objectives, you take cheaper things, because having a model not getting shot and holding an objective is worth the same regardless of how many points the model is or how survivable it is. If you want something to kill opponents and capture their objectives, you go for the bigger, stronger, tougher stuff that needs to engage.

At the end of the day, a generic Tactical Marine won't be selected until it costs competitively less per model for what it does compared to weaker stuff, but still costs more per unit.

So;
The game needs to realize that "tax units" are a thing, and work within that system. In a tax-unit system, being the cheapest is a quality all on its own, and just as valuable as lethality, movement, and survivability. These units of cheap models should, first, cost more compared to what they're bringing to the table, especially when they're so tough (though that's more of the current system, rather than how 40k works as a whole). In essence, your Elite units should cost less for the models, but more for the unit. Your "tax-filler" units should cost more for the models, but less for the unit. In doing so, you introduce the choice of "have this tax-filling unit that makes the rest of your army better by allowing you to spend more on stuff that isn't tax" or "have this tax-filling unit that is a bit better on its own, but the rest of your army might suffer a bit because you'll have less points to spend on stuff that isn't tax".

Example:

Tactical Marines - MUST take unit of 10 models, up to max of 20 models. 13 points per model. 130 points total for base unit.

Scouts - MUST take unit of 5 models, up to max of 10 models. 13 points per model. 65 points total for base unit.

The Scouts are categorically worse, except for certain situations due to Sniper Rifles (camo cloaks shouldn't be a bonus that makes them as survivable as Space Marines without the points for the unit going over 100 minium). You take Scouts because they're fewer points for the minimum sized unit, and you simply need something to stand somewhere. But you might take a unit of Tacticals still because you want a unit that can survive better while still holding the objective. The Tacticals cost just as much per model for a better model, but you're committing to spending more points on a unit that's still just a Tactical Marine.


That's something that should be factored into the game; sometimes being less points is the thing that's worthwhile. Same with Cultsts vs Chaos Space Marines;

Chaos Space Marines - Unit size 5-20. 12 points per model. Base unit is 60 points.
Cultists - Unit size 10-30. 6 points per model. Base unit is 60 points.

Same idea here. Cultists are hugely worse in everything except wound count, and they cost exactly as much for the base unit. Here, you got a choice where you might want more wounds some times, and more resilience and lethality from your tax unit at other times.


Grey Knights and other similar forces without lower-cost units suffer a further problem, though it's more an Imperial problem. Guardsmen. They're so cheap, you use the Guard for generating Command Points, and you're basically in the same situation as before; base unit costs for Guard are just so low. This just needs to be designed around. Having the whole "Platoon" structure like before could alleviate this by, again, forcing you to spend more for the base "platoon" of 25 Guardsmen, even though their cost per model is low.

Guardsmen - Platoon of 2 Infantry Squads (10 men each), plus a Platoon Command Squad (5 men). 6 points per model. Base Platoon is 150 points.
Conscripts - Unit size 10-30. 6 points per model. Base unit is 60 points.

You want those orders? Pay the taxman and commit to a lot of Guardsmen! They cost the same amount as a Conscript, but filling out with Conscripts frees up more of your list for tanks. Problem? Conscripts are worse in just so many ways.



So long as cheap stuff is "as effective" as their comparable points cost in bigger, tougher, stuff, then you get hurt on the scale. Note, at the high end, you need to be careful too. Those really big, really strong units need to pay more of a premium for what they are achieving. You should be using the tax-filler cheap units to access these things. Low-end items should be cheaper per model, but more for units. High-end models should be more expensive per model, but cheaper per unit.


Aren't you basically talking about Power Levels?

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

What is wrong with Space Marines is that 40K has turned into Epic, where you have a proliferation of tanks, vehicles and knights that make common infantry redundant, and the heavy armor of marines worthless.

Short of going back to an infantry-only game with 0-1 vehicle-sized support units, you can't do anything to make marines worth taking.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Had a look at your inputs. While I agree that 3+ armor isnt everything, its also an issue because people dont take enough of it so the few squads that do get taken get removed pretty quickly.

As for combat squads, its not point costed into the space marine cost so becomes irrelevant.

The thing I think they could have done was give marines an option to upgrade to a primaris bolter. It makes no sense that the soldiers that have been fighting for the last 10,000 years do not get access to new gear simply because GW didnt feel like it.


I can agree with that. combat Squads being in is more of a distraction of a problem and just isn't even worth being in the space marine codex, and should just be a general rule for all factions that you can split up a squad whenever you want. Space marines just need better rules along with doing more damage that are relevant to the whole army.

I think giving space marines the exclusive ability to gain +1 attack on charge or +1 attack for all bolters would go a long way for the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stormonu wrote:
What is wrong with Space Marines is that 40K has turned into Epic, where you have a proliferation of tanks, vehicles and knights that make common infantry redundant, and the heavy armor of marines worthless.

Short of going back to an infantry-only game with 0-1 vehicle-sized support units, you can't do anything to make marines worth taking.


You mean its turned into Apocalypse mode?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 05:40:57


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Asherian Command wrote:
Dakknauts, what do you think is wrong with Space Marines?


Nothing.

SM's are completely fine relative to other infantry in the game.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




A WWI French general once said (and I'm roughly transating here), war is making 90 kilos men wrestle against 90 kilos bombs. That's Space Marine (and by extention 40K) "problem" in a nutshell.

Space Marines are 500 kilos supermen who are sent to wrestle with 1 000 000 degree plasma beam, 500 kilos cannon shells, etc. They get slaughter like simple guardsmen because they are forced to face off against armies filled with weapons design to kill them or even tougher things.

What 40K needs is a redesign of its infantry vs vehicle/monstruous creature point value as well as a redesign of its special/heavy weapons vs normal weapons. As of now, Tactical Space Marines are rather well priced when compared with other basic infantry before any upgrades are taken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 05:46:06


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Their offense is complete garbage. Simple as that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



NE Ohio, USA

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Fluff wise, they are a blitzkreig type shock and awe force that strikes the enemy at its weakest point and breaks it with overwhelming force.


Well if they'd stop nerfing deep strike I'd be able to properly get on with that....
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
Dakknauts, what do you think is wrong with Space Marines?


Nothing.

SM's are completely fine relative to other infantry in the game.


Not quite. They're not miles off, but little differences can have a big impact. The game's basic infantry would be better balanced with 5pt Guardsmen, 9pt Sisters of Battle, 10pt Necron Warriors, 11pt Space Marines, 15pt Necron Immortals and 15pt Primaris Marines. Others with better knowledge of armies I don't play could fill in the other Xenos factions better than I.

That's based off the notion that, if something is double the cost of another, it has to have double the utility. That includes double the durability and double the offensive output, as well as some other advantage for the more expensive model to account for the inherent advantages that the cheaper model has - more area control, better ability to outnumber the enemy on an objective, and being hard to overkill and waste firepower. The Sister has not quite twice the durability and firepower of a Guardsman and her special rules don't make up enough ground, so she costs not quite twice a Guardsman.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

ccs wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Fluff wise, they are a blitzkreig type shock and awe force that strikes the enemy at its weakest point and breaks it with overwhelming force.


Well if they'd stop nerfing deep strike I'd be able to properly get on with that....


Yeah, deep strike is not really that viable with marines if it means them immediately dying upon arrival.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
Dakknauts, what do you think is wrong with Space Marines?


Nothing.

SM's are completely fine relative to other infantry in the game.


Sooo 5ppm Guardsmen and 360-400 pt knight titans are acceptable? When if a space marine unit equal in cost 2 predators could both be popped on the same turn by a single Knight Titan?

Space marines pay quite a bit for ineffective vehicles and infantry that does not put out as much damage output as other races.

A striking scorpion is a 11ppm and has an exarch that gives them an ability cause mortal wounds upon touch effectively giving the squad at 55 points +5 attacks on immediate base contact when charging.... an assault squad costs 13ppms and are 65 points in total. You have maybe 11 attacks on base at t4 S4 WS3. Striking scorpions get 17 attacks, 5 which cause mortal wounds. They also gain +1 to their rolls if they are fighting in cover. And every single time the unit makes a hit roll of 6+ they gain another attack... So effectively has 21 attacks.... at WS 3 S4 with a 2W sarge.... so 6 wounds in total for the striking scorpion squad. Compared to the marines 5 wounds. So yeah Totally fine! Space marines not only have no benefits in close combat (I gave the assault squad an additional attack from their chainsword ability). But they have no way to counter this even with their elite option is more expensive and you can take far more scorpions and upgrades, and they have a better option for shooting.

So not only am I paying effectively 2 points per a model extra for 1 toughness but I am also dying far more often with ineffective weapons that don't do nearly as much damage. Tell me how is that fair? (we are comparing an elite unit to a fast attack option though, but the point still stands the elite choice is better in every respect to the assault squad which costs more even without jumppacks!)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 06:31:30


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Asherian Command wrote:
Once you face something with an ap -3 or -4 that squad of marines is dead. And those have become very common in 8th edition. Every single army has one in spades except for space marines. (or they are extremely overcosted because it is a space marine list).


Here you are somewhat off. AP3-4 weapons aren't the issue compared to old and current. Those would have ignored marine save completely before anyway! It's not like marines before had 3++. -4 weapons were AP1 weapons(ignore flat out any non-inv save). -3 were stuff like lascannon. -2 stuff like krak missiles. In fact against some weapons like krak missiles(5+) and lascannons(6+) marines gets better save than before. The ones that hurt marine more are AP4 or worse weapons of old that have AP better than 0 which increase the marine casualty rate.

AP change hurts more of the marines damage output than survival. What hurts marines survival more is simply upping of heavy weapon shots armies put out and all the special rules resulting in save mattering less eventhough AP system itself could even be helping.

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tneva82 wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
Once you face something with an ap -3 or -4 that squad of marines is dead. And those have become very common in 8th edition. Every single army has one in spades except for space marines. (or they are extremely overcosted because it is a space marine list).


Here you are somewhat off. AP3-4 weapons aren't the issue compared to old and current. Those would have ignored marine save completely before anyway! It's not like marines before had 3++. -4 weapons were AP1 weapons(ignore flat out any non-inv save). -3 were stuff like lascannon. -2 stuff like krak missiles. In fact against some weapons like krak missiles(5+) and lascannons(6+) marines gets better save than before. The ones that hurt marine more are AP4 or worse weapons of old that have AP better than 0 which increase the marine casualty rate.

AP change hurts more of the marines damage output than survival. What hurts marines survival more is simply upping of heavy weapon shots armies put out and all the special rules resulting in save mattering less eventhough AP system itself could even be helping.

I agree completely! The ap- for every single weapon in the game is quite annoying which decreases the value of most saves. Plus cheaper infantry options for all imperial players means space marines are subpar due to efficiency.

That and lacking any decent AP on all bolter weapons except for primaris.
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
The problem is marine fanboys that expect them to be space Jesus because the fluff says one marine can conquer a planet and get outraged every time they fail a 2+ save. The solution is to accept that even marines are still basic infantry, make this clear in the fluff, and maybe drop their points a bit.


Exactly this.

Power armor is strong in 8th edition. Most of the weapons that now have AP-2 or -3 like the diss cannons were AP2 in previous editions and power armor dudes had no save at all against those, now they still have a 5+ or 6+. It's only the former AP4 weapons that are better against marines, but they're not that common. My rokkits could bypass all the saves against marines, now they still have a 5+.

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 Blackie wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
The problem is marine fanboys that expect them to be space Jesus because the fluff says one marine can conquer a planet and get outraged every time they fail a 2+ save. The solution is to accept that even marines are still basic infantry, make this clear in the fluff, and maybe drop their points a bit.


Exactly this.

Power armor is strong in 8th edition. Most of the weapons that now have AP-2 or -3 like the diss cannons were AP2 in previous editions and power armor dudes had no save at all against those, now they still have a 5+ or 6+. It's only the former AP4 weapons that are better against marines, but they're not that common. My rokkits could bypass all the saves against marines, now they still have a 5+.


Your rokkits etc have gone up in numbers and gained special rules by the bucketloads though. Offensive ability in 8th ed has gone up the roof while leaving # of wounds on board as primary defence ability.

Orks sure didn't use to have firepower to take down Magnus by 1 unit in one round. Or riptide. Now that's not even that hard to do. And that's just orks. Shooty gunlines have gone up in similar way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 07:35:11


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And also cost 12 points instead of 5 though.

I wasn't referring to 1-shot a superhero, I was talking to kill regular power armor dudes. The thread is about power armors being terrible, in fact they're more effective than previous editions unless targeted by the former AP4 weapons like heavy bolters or big choppas.

Not even power klaws or lascannons can bypass their save now.

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Bolters seem kind of weak for the awesome background they get. All the talk at an exploding round with a shaped charge AP tip detonaing inside the target and being so devastating just doesn't reflect in the stats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 07:44:26


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Problem is marines are over pointed for what you get in relation to other factions and also internally in the codex post chapter approved .

Solutions:
-Lower the points to around 10pts/marine
-or give them sternguard stats and weapon options and 2+ armour save. (this could warrant a small point increase)

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Space marine solution idea: between their geneseed enhancements and power armor support systems they get to reroll failed toughness saves. Still bones by mortal wounds but hard to kill otherwise, better reflecting their superhuman physique and armor support systems but still possible to drop from one hit.

I know a great wailing will soon be heard...

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I've written about this problem in detail twice before:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751394.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755217.page

I'll give a quick summary:

Marine units are supposed to be flexible, durable units. In the past, they generally had less offensive power than equivalent pts of equivalent options from other factions, but made up for it with the durability of the 3+ save. They also had a lot of hybrid units that had decent ranged and melee. Their durability allowed them to leverage various game mechanics to win despite lower offensive power. But in 8th edition, their offense dropped even lower, and most of these mechanics disappeared.

For example: Marines didn't have as strong melee power as other factions, but even tac marines could still kill non-melee specialist units via sweeping advance, even if they couldn't actually kill that many models. This worked because sweeping advance was based on your losses vs theirs, and the tacs could avoid losses due to 3+ being good. So you could sweep away fire warriors or guard units all day with tacs even though they sucked at actually killing stuff efficiently. Now, it would take the whole game for a tac squad to melee down a bunch of fire warriors or guardians. And of course, they'd actually just fall back and shoot you to bits.

The Space Marine play style relied on a bunch of mechanics that no longer exist:
1) Sweeping Advance
2) Always having grenades to ignore penalties for charging into cover (giving them an edge over many melee specialists who were more choppy, but didn't)
3) Blast and template weapons being super efficient vs hordes (they are now marginal with the CA changes)
4) Being able to disembark and shoot after moving (Rhino Rush), which meant staying safe in your transports turn 1, and then rushing up and wiping some units with focus fire turn 2.
5) Low numbers of high strength attacks being able to kill characters and vehicles reliably (instant death and back armor hits.)
6) Being able to easily shake/stun vehicles with anti tank weapons, giving your units a chance to get close to them with meltas and powerfists
7) Relatively cheap transports across the whole game
8) Having comparatively more options to safely deep strike than other factions/units
9) Having lots of durable, highly mobile heavy weapons that could reliably kill armor (goes with 5) such as multi melta attack bikes.

So that's a huge amount of mechanics that used to be more in their favor than anyone else, and are now gone. To really drive the point home, consider what a tac squad or CSM squad could do in 5th edition:

A) Reliably kill any type of vehicle at range with its melta(s) with a good enough probability of 1 shotting them to be a serious threat
B) Reliably kill any type of vehicle except a walker in melee with the sargeant's powerfist
C) Reliably kill any character without eternal warrior in melee with the powerfist
D) Do decent anti horde damage with their basic bolter due to AP5, or serious, green tide stopping damage if given anti horde special weapons.
E) Survive a turn or two of shooting from pretty much anything except plasma spam, and still have almost all it's offensive power left because special weapons die last
F) Survive several turns in melee with anything that isn't a CC specialist with multiple power weapons, and not suffer much offensive power loss
G) Charge and likely sweeping advance any non-marine, non-cc specialist unit
H) Be hard enough to kill to hold down objectives even under heavy fire, especially in cover.

Tacs did all that and were STILL considered mediocre (CSM were better.) And now, in 8th, they do ABSOLUTELY ZERO OF THOSE THINGS. Instead they have some of the lowest durability vs pts ratio, some of the weakest firepower due to bolters not becoming AP-1 (even though most other AP5 weapons did), terrible anti tank and anti character due to the changes to weapon damage system, and lost their mobility due to transport rule and cost changes. Auras and stratagems do very little to make up for it.

So yeah. Read my other two posts to get more into the details. But the changes are HUGE. This is why marines cannot be fixed merely by dropping their points. Perhaps the old system was silly because so much of a squad's power was loaded into a couple special weapon guys and the sergeant. It'd be nice if it was more evenly spread out. But marines need huge stat and rule changes.

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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
ABSOLUTELY ZERO OF THOSE THINGS.


Most of the things you listed affect all the units in 40k, not only power armor dudes. My orks used to wreck faces with their pks, now they're almost dead weight. Oh, and they cost more than the SM equivalent.

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 Blackie wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
ABSOLUTELY ZERO OF THOSE THINGS.


Most of the things you listed affect all the units in 40k, not only power armor dudes. My orks used to wreck faces with their pks, now they're almost dead weight. Oh, and they cost more than the SM equivalent.


Yes, certainly. It is hurting some Ork units as compared to in the past. But Orks have other options as well, and have picked up some new tricks and mechanics. I am not saying this only affected marines. I am saying that the way marine units used to operate, that used to make them viable, is no longer a thing.

Guard also lost out on the relative power of the powerfist sarge. But it doesn't really bother them, because guard wasn't built around using those to kill tanks. Guard was about gun lines and armor. And they are still able to be about gun lines and armor.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 08:15:22


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 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They don’t work as intended.

In general they should quite a bit more damage than they do.

Fluff wise, they are a blitzkreig type shock and awe force that strikes the enemy at its weakest point and breaks it with overwhelming force.

Their current competitive list...gun line. How boring can you get?

They should be a force to reckon with at short range. In both melee and shooting.

Almost none of their rules reflect this. Their stat line is over-costed and subpar.

A lot of people think that marines should be more survivable, when in reality they need to do more damage to reflect their fluff and to fix the army in general.


One hundred per cent this. Marines die. Less easily than Guard, but they die. The issue is that a Tactical Marine does no damage. FAQ their guns into ASTARTES Bolters and do the same for Chaos Marines. Like they do for Astartes shotguns. Give them a higher rate of fire or plus 1 strength at half range. Anything.
   
 
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