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It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

In the early day's of 8th, ranged gun line Alpha strike lists dominated. As more books were released that unlocked more options for deepstrike, first turn alpha deepstrike lists came to compete with the previously dominant ranged gun lines. Now with the Big FaQ, alpha deepstrike has lost it's viability, so we're returning to the days of ranged gunline alpha strike supremacy.

Overall, removing deep strike alpha strikes is a good thing from the perception of other types of armies. I won't try to list all the types of armies that aren't gun line or mass deepstrike, but it covers a lot of territory. It seems there should be a place in the game for armies that are more based on mid field units, close combat, fast units, or anything else that isn't deep strike melee or blobs of heavy weapons sitting on the back line. In fact, most units in the game fall into this category, and most types of general lists. If you're playing this sort of army, both gun line and mass deepstrike lists have been plowing you for awhile. So seeing deepstrikers nerfed is welcome. There ought to be tradeoff between deepstriking a unit and putting it in a transport, or buying a more expensive but faster version (bikers.)

So the problem remains that ranged gunline alpha strikers are going to dominate again now. People are suggesting all sorts of ways to deal with this problem, like first turn night fighting, or similar stuff. What I'm writing this post to propose is that the problem with ranged gun lines is due to wider mechanical changes in 8th, and that it should be addressed in those areas.

To get a bit more context, let's remember back to 5th or 6th edition. The deepstrike changes have made them much more like in 5th. Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really. And it wasn't because of night fighting or anything. So why is gun line alpha strikes wiping entire armies off the board in the first 2 turns now, but didn't in 5th? It's because offensive power has greatly increased, and defense hasn't really changed.

Lots of things changed in 8th that directly increased the power of shooting:
- Widespread availability of re-roll auras for hits and wounds, and even direct bonuses to hit or wound
- Stratagems (far more help offense than defense)
- AP changes proportionally increased the power of low AP weapons against high save units
- Force Org changes allowed more spamming of powerful shooting units
- No more ability to stop vehicles from firing with shaken/stunned.
- Faction traits. More help with offense than defense.

The change to line of sight and cover also massively benefits shooting:
- Cover is proportionally less powerful against high ap weapons
- Cover is much, much harder to get as you need to be fully within a terrain piece for infantry, and within terrain and 50% covered for vehicles.
- LoS changes mean that it's much harder to hide a unit from being shot as LoS is measured to any little detail, not only to hull/body.
- LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can be sees by an enemy, the enemy squad can shoot your whole squad. (EDITED, had garbled up what I meant as pointed out)

In short, 5th didn't have this problem because models were more durable, cover actually mattered, and firepower was proportionally lower. And if we want to fix the current situation, that's what we need to move back towards if we want to fix this system.

If our units were more durable, or even just as durable as they were in the past, then it would be viable to focus on using lots of durable units to survive being shot by gun lines until they can move up, or deep strikers can come in. Here's a list of things that could help resolve the current situation without introducing something as gamey as modifying shooting in the opening turn (which doesn't really address the real problem anyway).

1) Change cover to be easier to get and/or stronger.

2) Change LoS to make it easier to hide squads

3) Change who can shoot and who can take wounds so that concealed models can't get wiped

4) Increase the durability of units like MeQs so that they can tank through firepower like they did in the past. For example, give space marines and other MeQ units a rule that lets them ignore 1 point of AP.

5) Make defensive auras and buffs available to counteract offensive auras. Such as re-roll saves of 1, more FNP, or -1 to hit. Imagine if when running a Captain, you could choose if he gave re-roll 1's to hit or re-roll saves of 1.

This whole issue also intersects with some other problems that are worth considering:

A) Changes to vehicles no longer allow you to stop their shooting without taking off most of their wounds, or all out destroying them. The vehicle degradation system parallels the old weapon destroyed and immobilization system, but not the old shaken/stunned results. It used to be viable to shut down a lot of vehicles with relatively fewer heavy weapons. Even if you didn't have enough ranged firepower to blow up, say, an armored company, you could at least reduce their firepower while your troops advanced. This let armies with proportionally lower shooting still fight back against a vehicle gun line. It would be nice to see a system where if a vehicle has taken a bunch of damage in one turn, it takes a temporary shooting penalty in the next. However, to help offset this, vehicles should go back to taking no penalty for moving and firing heavy and assault weapons.

B) Heavy weapon firepower has gone up, while lots of mid range firepower has gone down (except for plasma spam.) Spamming heavy bolters is good now, but regular bolters suck. This is mainly due to the AP changes. Heavy bolters got proportionally better against better armor saves, but regular bolters and other equivalent weapons lost firepower because their AP 5 became AP 0. Bolters, splinter rifles, etc used to ignore the armor saves of guard or boyz, but now they don't. This is part of the reason why we're having problems with swarm units being more durable (for their points) than MeQs, but that's a different issue. The decrease in firepower is partially offset by the increases to ranged firepower listed above, but heavy weapons and plasma didn't suffer the same issue. So the space between most rapidfire and assault weapons, and heavy weapons, has grown. So in the past it would be viable for a mid range army to eat a bunch of fire from a gun line turn 1, because then as soon as they moved up, they could do some good damage back. But with their firepower being proportionally behind, on top of all these other issues, they can't compete. So an increase in the firepower of mid range small arms like bolters would be in order, especially if any defensive buffs were added.

Overall, I think that we'd find a lot of the game's problems disappearing if we got back some decent defensive options, and had a slight increase to mid range small arms.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 00:49:24


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Overall, removing deep strike alpha strikes is a good thing from the perception of other types of armies. I won't try to list all the types of armies that aren't gun line or mass deepstrike, but it covers a lot of territory. It seems there should be a place in the game for armies that are more based on mid field units, close combat, fast units, or anything else that isn't deep strike melee or blobs of heavy weapons sitting on the back line. In fact, most units in the game fall into this category, and most types of general lists. If you're playing this sort of army, both gun line and mass deepstrike lists have been plowing you for awhile. So seeing deepstrikers nerfed is welcome. There ought to be tradeoff between deepstriking a unit and putting it in a transport, or buying a more expensive but faster version (bikers.)


THANKS! Thanks for putting in a much more eloquent way what I have been thinking since the FAQ. Thats basically why I have no symphaty for blood angels or blood letters bombs based-armies. The deepstrike change is a GOOD change for the game.

That does not mean I think the situation with alpha-striking gunlines is fine, the contrary, they should be adressed as you said just like alpha-deepstriking ones have been.

Of course I agree with the rest of your points (With the exception of the A one. Vehicles are, just like troops ,at last usefull, we shouldn't change that, and the B one. Swarm units aren't more durable than MEQ. Guardsmen/Cultists are more durable than Marines. Ork Boyzs arent more durable than them, or other T3 expensive models like Tau Firewarriors, Wyches, etc... ), thats a very good analysis of the situation.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 00:11:33


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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The Void

Swarm units aren't more durable than MEQ. Guardsmen/Cultists are more durable than Marines. Ork Boyzs arent more durable than them, or other T3 expensive models like Tau Firewarriors, Wyches, etc... ), thats a very good analysis of the situation.


Yes, you are correct. I did not mean that ALL swarms are more durable. I wasn't trying to get into a detailed breakdown of all of them though.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can see an enemy, the whole squad can shoot the whole enemy squad.

LOS is drawn per model when firing, not by unit. If I have an infantry squad with a lascannon hiding behind a building, with one guardsman peeking out, the lascannon cannot magically fire through the wall and hit an opponent.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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First I think no ability to stun or shake vehicals is an anti alpha strike mechanic. If you don't completely destroy something - it can shoot you back just as hard sometimes (honestly I think degrading profiles should be removed from the game all together)

"- LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can see an enemy, the whole squad can shoot the whole enemy squad. "

Yep - go back to wound pools - it was a good mechanic

Honestly I like a lot of your ideas - I don't think the game needs more defense - and reroll saves are about the worst possible mechanic you could put in a d6 system. I think offense is a little too potent - like maybe 10-15% too potent. It's still possible to have a bad turn right now anyways - so offense isn't too far over the top. I think we just need to have like 15% more bad turns. Then games might make it to 6-7 turns.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in es
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Vigo. Spain.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can see an enemy, the whole squad can shoot the whole enemy squad.

LOS is drawn per model when firing, not by unit. If I have an infantry squad with a lascannon hiding behind a building, with one guardsman peeking out, the lascannon cannot magically fire through the wall and hit an opponent.


I think he wanted to say the opposite. If only one of your models is out in the open the full squad can be killed.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

 Galas wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can see an enemy, the whole squad can shoot the whole enemy squad.

LOS is drawn per model when firing, not by unit. If I have an infantry squad with a lascannon hiding behind a building, with one guardsman peeking out, the lascannon cannot magically fire through the wall and hit an opponent.


I think he wanted to say the opposite. If only one of your models is out in the open the full squad can be killed.


Yes, sorry, this is what I meant. Thanks for the correction!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
First I think no ability to stun or shake vehicals is an anti alpha strike mechanic. If you don't completely destroy something - it can shoot you back just as hard sometimes (honestly I think degrading profiles should be removed from the game all together)

"- LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can see an enemy, the whole squad can shoot the whole enemy squad. "

Yep - go back to wound pools - it was a good mechanic

Honestly I like a lot of your ideas - I don't think the game needs more defense - and reroll saves are about the worst possible mechanic you could put in a d6 system. I think offense is a little too potent - like maybe 10-15% too potent. It's still possible to have a bad turn right now anyways - so offense isn't too far over the top. I think we just need to have like 15% more bad turns. Then games might make it to 6-7 turns.


Agree. I wouldn't want all the things I listed, and not all of those suggestions would actually be fun to play with. They are just examples of the sorts of mechanics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 00:50:26


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

Gun lines where the best thing in 5th edition though. Often in the form of tanks because they had the 'damage chart save' that was so bad.

Charging through terain ment hitting last. All transports made a crater mening you always charged through terain after killing troop transports.

You could only charge what you shot. Terain slowed you down.

And the IG got the ship with AV12 and 3 twin linked lascannons.

No 5th was parking lot edition gunline.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

 Niiai wrote:
Gun lines where the best thing in 5th edition though. Often in the form of tanks because they had the 'damage chart save' that was so bad.

Charging through terain ment hitting last. All transports made a crater mening you always charged through terain after killing troop transports.

You could only charge what you shot. Terain slowed you down.

And the IG got the ship with AV12 and 3 twin linked lascannons.

No 5th was parking lot edition gunline.


It had a lot of gun lines, but they weren't the only thing in the meta. And they wern't alpha strike gun lines. The issues, as you point out, were a lack of ways to close, not that they'd table you with shooting turn 1.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

What, Leafblower Edition? Yeah, it had some issues with gunlines. Perhaps they weren't as alpha-strikey, but the outcome was much the same.

That said, I think you're on the right track with some of the concerns over AP and the relative power of small arms. There's a real lack of utility or impact in a lot of infantry choices, and AP is handed out in ridiculous quantities, making armour and cover irrelevant.
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I actually prefer the current cover system Make high AP weapons more expensive, and stop handing out invulns like candy.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

Did you play 5th or just get told about it?

5th was the single most gunline focused edition ever.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
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The Void

 DarknessEternal wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

Did you play 5th or just get told about it?

5th was the single most gunline focused edition ever.


5th had some really nasty competitive gun lines like Leafblower. But not all gun lines were a problem. It was a problem with a few specific lists, not an overall paradigm problem in the way it is now.

And even then, the problem manifests in a different way. Gun lines that did well in 5th were killing you over several turns because movement was so limited. They weren't tabeling you first turn (in general). It wouldn't have been a problem if we had the amount of movement options that we do now.

There were also competitive lists that were not gun lines. While it's too soon to say, it's looking like there won't be many of those now after this FaQ.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Gun lines that did well in 5th were killing you over several turns because movement was so limited. They weren't tabeling you first turn (in general).

Every word you just said was wrong.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in au
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
There were also competitive lists that were not gun lines. While it's too soon to say, it's looking like there won't be many of those now after this FaQ.

Woah, are you training for the Hyperbole Olympics?
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

 kadeton wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
There were also competitive lists that were not gun lines. While it's too soon to say, it's looking like there won't be many of those now after this FaQ.

Woah, are you training for the Hyperbole Olympics?


Okay guys, I get it. You're still mad about the meta from 3 editions ago.

Now, do you actually have a disagreement with the general thrust of my arguments here, or are we just arguing ancient semantics?

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
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Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Galas wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
LoS changes mean that if a single model in your unit can see an enemy, the whole squad can shoot the whole enemy squad.

LOS is drawn per model when firing, not by unit. If I have an infantry squad with a lascannon hiding behind a building, with one guardsman peeking out, the lascannon cannot magically fire through the wall and hit an opponent.


I think he wanted to say the opposite. If only one of your models is out in the open the full squad can be killed.


Yes, sorry, this is what I meant. Thanks for the correction!
.

It's all good, I was wondering if that's what you meant. Only reason I pointed it out is because I've met groups in 8th playing it that way (the example I posted). Much like the oft quoted "catachans get to reroll their mortars" mix up, it's a mistake I can see happening that pops up more than you think. That said, it still exists for vehicles at the very least, but until GW comes up with specific vehicle sponsons arcs for every model in the game it's a necessary evil.

I like a lot of your ideas, like you said, not all of them should be implemented at the same time, but a few well placed ones could work.

As a guard player, it's pretty obvious 8th is almost tailor made to reward how IG plays. I feel IG does get demonized too much sometimes (I've had players say it was ridiculous I had 60 guardsmen sometimes ) but at the end of the day we are one of the most efficient point for point armies in the game. IG is mechanically supposed to win in a straight up slugging match, that's the point, we're the hammer of the emperor. If you're dumb enough to fight us head to head in a war of attrition you're supposed to lose. The problem is that when other armies want to go for a scalpel approach they're not rewarded for doing so, something that usually worked well in previous editions. Until GW can figure out a way to balance that approach with armies that win by raw math and numbers, 8th will continue to have problems for "elite" armies.

I think terrain rules being reworked is the best place to start. It's a practically untouched part of the rules and would help immensely, especially for vehicles and monsters. From there we either double down on 1st turn being a manuever turn (night fighting, no turn 1 assault) or double down on it being an alpha strike turn (1st turn deep strike, shooting rules unaffected). Many other games have alternating activations or preliminary bombardment/hidden setup to counteract this, but 40k doesn't. ITC provides an interesting reward to going second, but you're still taking a major punch to the face for that option to get the final say on scoring points.

I also feel if other codexes can be brought into line with IG it will help. As it sits, IG is about the only codex I've seen where over 50% feels useful and has a niche. I've seen guard players build real lists out of almost every regiment and even most units. If other codexes can be made with IG as the benchmark the game will be in a good spot. Whoever wrote the guard codex clearly played IG, you can tell by all the subtle nods and references (the 122nd Cadian for example are in it, paintscheme and all) it's just a shame many codexes lack that same attention to detail. GW also needs to decide if every codex is going to be perfectly playable on it's own or if some are meant to solely be "ally" codexes, like grey knights or admech. Because until that decision is made, we're going to continue to see codexes like grey knights that just cannot survive in a competitive environment on their own.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
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On moon miranda.

5th was hardly the most gunline edition ever, issues existed, but it wasn't "all gunlines all the time", and there was way more close combat than most of 6th or 7th.

Hell, that was the last time I could really make use of CSM's as actual aggressive and functional assault units. BP/CCW/Bolter with a couple meltas or flamers and a champ with a powerfist being dumped out of a Rhino that moved into position the previous turn was a beautiful thing. Even more beautiful was having a unit of Termi's or Oblits deep strike onto the icon the unit was carrying to crack a transport or soften up a target so the CSM's could get stuck in.

As for 8th, I do think cover and terrain needs to count for more for sure.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
5th was hardly the most gunline edition ever, issues existed, but it wasn't "all gunlines all the time", and there was way more close combat than most of 6th or 7th.

Hell, that was the last time I could really make use of CSM's as actual aggressive and functional assault units. BP/CCW/Bolter with a couple meltas or flamers and a champ with a powerfist being dumped out of a Rhino that moved into position the previous turn was a beautiful thing. Even more beautiful was having a unit of Termi's or Oblits deep strike onto the icon the unit was carrying to crack a transport or soften up a target so the CSM's could get stuck in.

As for 8th, I do think cover and terrain needs to count for more for sure.


This i don't understand, in my view cover is fine...ok almost fine.

It has this weird issue with your models having to step on a peeble to be eligible to get cover, but apart from that it's the same old 50% obscured rule we always had. The only difference is that infantry is in cover with just the peeble.


I think that a lot of people are playing this wrong and think that for a non infantry model to be in cover it needs to be inside the cover and obscured by 50% by it, which is most of the time impossible.
Instead the rule is quite clear (and there is even a FAQ that clarifies this), if you have even a toe into an area terrain and there is something between you and shooting model (anything is fine, even enemy models) that covers you by 50%, then you are in cover. It's so easy. It's literally enough to put 3 marines or 2 primaris in front of your predator to give it cover.

As for the bonus it is the best system we ever had (ok played only from 5th so i have no idea if we had something better before that). It has a big impact, can be negated by shooting overly powerful weapons at the model, does not devalue highly armored models and cannot reach overbusted levels of invulnerability that puts your faction out of the meta if you don't have rules to ignore it.

Sure, i would be in favor of removing the peeble necessity, but apart from that what's wrong with it?
   
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Regarding cover, our first thoughts about the placement of models do not include the realtime dynamics and movement of models which the game more or less tries to simulate.
Imagine that models run from cover to cover, when they're behind cover they're out of sight, but they were in sight of the enemy when they ran.
So are you saying you want an technical "easy" solution (without simulating the dynamics and motion) or should it be difficult, if not impossible, to be completely hidden and instead models should somehow be harder to kill, maybe also representing the enemy tracking the models and shooting through the walls with heavy weaponry?

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To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 kadeton wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
There were also competitive lists that were not gun lines. While it's too soon to say, it's looking like there won't be many of those now after this FaQ.

Woah, are you training for the Hyperbole Olympics?

Okay guys, I get it. You're still mad about the meta from 3 editions ago.

Now, do you actually have a disagreement with the general thrust of my arguments here, or are we just arguing ancient semantics?

Oh, I was talking about your "all armies are going to be gunlines from now on!" claim. It's pure Chicken Little hysteria.
   
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The Void

I think that a lot of people are playing this wrong and think that for a non infantry model to be in cover it needs to be inside the cover and obscured by 50% by it, which is most of the time impossible.
Instead the rule is quite clear (and there is even a FAQ that clarifies this), if you have even a toe into an area terrain and there is something between you and shooting model (anything is fine, even enemy models) that covers you by 50%, then you are in cover. It's so easy. It's literally enough to put 3 marines or 2 primaris in front of your predator to give it cover.


I really miss being able to use Rhinos to provide cover to units from certain angles. Having this be tied to terrain removes most of the flexibility of this tactic. And with how LoS works, it is very difficult to use Rhinos to totally block off a unit now. I used to do a lot of rhino walls to great effect.



 kadeton wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 kadeton wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
There were also competitive lists that were not gun lines. While it's too soon to say, it's looking like there won't be many of those now after this FaQ.

Woah, are you training for the Hyperbole Olympics?

Okay guys, I get it. You're still mad about the meta from 3 editions ago.

Now, do you actually have a disagreement with the general thrust of my arguments here, or are we just arguing ancient semantics?

Oh, I was talking about your "all armies are going to be gunlines from now on!" claim. It's pure Chicken Little hysteria.


Oh, yeah, in that regard I was being hyperbolic, sorry. I mean it's not going to be all gun lines all the time, especially not in casual play, and who knows what the next books will bring? But 8th has not felt like it had as many options in so far as list types already, and now the FaQ has swung things back towards gun lines.


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The fact that reroll bubbles are even a thing is just impossibly stupid cockamamy nonsense.

Then you consider the fact that Feel No Pain has virtually been removed from the game, and where it still exists it is a pathetic 6+ from the 4+ that it used to be in 5th, and the 5+ it used to be in 6th/7th.

Turn 1 deep strikes were not a solution to the problem. Why were drop pods trebled in cost when I can easily take a unit of inceptors and drop them right next to anything?

Increasing unit resilience and baseline mobility is the way to make things dynamic. Obviously any gun line is going to have the default advantage by merit of being able to shoot you for multiple turns before you can close distance. Then add the myriad of charge deterrents and defenses available.

Why exactly did transports triple in points cost?

Take orks. Why do they have 5" movement speed range? Why do Terminators have 5" movement speed range? What am I even supposed to do with that compared to units that have 36" or even 48" range?

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Honestly, we just need Cover changes for now and then see what else needs to be changed.

Easy to get cover is for sure needed, its impossible and not fun to have all LoS blocking terrain but currently is what is needed.


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We need points increases for heavy hitting guns and/or points decreases for thoughness.




 
   
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Or if someone could just explain why the number of shots on assault cannons were doubled.

A TL assault cannon is literally 12 shots. Then you get the reroll to hit anyway on top of it.

That's not even power creep. It f'ing quadrupled in firepower.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
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 TedNugent wrote:
Or if someone could just explain why the number of shots on assault cannons were doubled.

A TL assault cannon is literally 12 shots. Then you get the reroll to hit anyway on top of it.

That's not even power creep. It f'ing quadrupled in firepower.


Tripled, an Assault Cannon had 4 shots. It also lost Rending, which was supposed to represent a withering torrent of bullets tearing into its target.

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 TedNugent wrote:
Or if someone could just explain why the number of shots on assault cannons were doubled.

A TL assault cannon is literally 12 shots. Then you get the reroll to hit anyway on top of it.

That's not even power creep. It f'ing quadrupled in firepower.


It was doubled if it was twin linked. GW went for double shots rather than rerolls for twin linked weapons. Wouldn't have been that big change except GW then provided rerolls like candy so you get rerolls AND double shots.

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tneva82 wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
Or if someone could just explain why the number of shots on assault cannons were doubled.

A TL assault cannon is literally 12 shots. Then you get the reroll to hit anyway on top of it.

That's not even power creep. It f'ing quadrupled in firepower.


It was doubled if it was twin linked. GW went for double shots rather than rerolls for twin linked weapons. Wouldn't have been that big change except GW then provided rerolls like candy so you get rerolls AND double shots.


Ah right, I forgot that in my original list.

Another big change I should have put there is unlimited split fire.

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 kadeton wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 kadeton wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
There were also competitive lists that were not gun lines. While it's too soon to say, it's looking like there won't be many of those now after this FaQ.

Woah, are you training for the Hyperbole Olympics?

Okay guys, I get it. You're still mad about the meta from 3 editions ago.

Now, do you actually have a disagreement with the general thrust of my arguments here, or are we just arguing ancient semantics?

Oh, I was talking about your "all armies are going to be gunlines from now on!" claim. It's pure Chicken Little hysteria.


Well true enough. There needs to be armies to go to bottom halves of tournaments as well!

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/16/tneva82-goblins-humans-and-elves/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
 
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