Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2018/04/19 18:22:45
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
The question is, what can I bring that is worth to get over into the other zone to fight if I have something better that can just stay back and shoot
Yes, Rhino Rush works, but as a Space Wolves and Thousand Sons player, I don't see a reason to move my units to the enemy and get them killed for a minor benefit
Well, this problem is applicable to melee armies. I don't know that i'd rush tzaangors up the board in rhinos, either. They're cheap enough to run on their own/DMC or come turn 2.
As for what is worth it -- that depends what you're trying to do. This is just a quick list concept...
At first glance *gasp* tacticals? HAHAHA! Sure, it's unconventional.
But consider the following - those tacticals will always strike first in combat (Sicarius) and will reroll all hits (Cassius). They can also fall back and shoot at will (UM). So while their punching power is low they still have pistols and tons of utility. And i'm sure you could find room for a power fist or two on some sargeants.
Why Grav and not Plasma? Because I want to keep units "safe" in combat I don't want to blow myself up more easily when I retreat.
Why Flamers? Flamers are there for pesky minus to hit units.
Why Jump Packs in a Land Raider? VV are in the LR, because their goal is to get out and jump behind the lines and prevent retreats where possible while being as survivable as possible.
What if I face a harder melee army? I castle up with the Rhinos as shields and dakka the hell out of them.
Tigirius also gives -1 to hit on the LR. This activates on the enemies turn so there is no avoiding it. If he goes first then he makes the LRT9 and let it ignore MW from spells. Chronus heals the LR.
Attack bikes are there to prevent deep strikers from charging rhinos.
The biggest problem I have playing Space Marines (Dark Angels in my case) is that everytime I try to make an heavy infantry list... I just end up with a very small army.
Everything is so expensive, but at the end of the day, it doesn't feel like it.
I play Custodes and even having an army with 20 Models, it actually endures firepower and feels like it can acomplis something.
With space marines, I don't only have a small army, but one that can't endure punishement. Not a problem ,because I play in a relaxed meta, but when I go to more competitive tournaments, I absolutely felt that.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/04/19 18:35:37
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Galas wrote: The biggest problem I have playing Space Marines (Dark Angels in my case) is that everytime I try to make an heavy infantry list... I just end up with a very small army.
Everything is so expensive, but at the end of the day, it doesn't feel like it.
I play Custodes and even having an army with 20 Models, it actually endures firepower and feels like it can acomplis something.
With space marines, I don't only have a small army, but one that can't endure punishement. Not a problem ,because I play in a relaxed meta, but when I go to more competitive tournaments, I absolutely felt that.
Which I think drives to Nick's point in the LVO thread. Durability it key and the list above sort of highlights it. You don't really have a squishy target available and you're forced to choose between stopping the more useful VV or rhinos with "simple" Tac Marines. You *can't* do both mathematically.
People are also enamored with taking plasma pistols, power fists, and whatever doodad they can find, which makes it harder to fit rhinos and other more durable items. Like why do VValways have to have SS/TH?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 18:36:02
2018/04/19 18:37:31
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/04/19 18:40:05
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Galas wrote: I'm guilty of giving Powerfist+Plasma pistols to a couple of my tactical sargeants...
Oh i'm so tempted to put plasma pistols on my rubric sorcs, but then I counted how many times I got to shoot the damn thing and it just didn't make sense most of the time.
2018/04/19 19:16:48
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Galas wrote: The biggest problem I have playing Space Marines (Dark Angels in my case) is that everytime I try to make an heavy infantry list... I just end up with a very small army.
Everything is so expensive, but at the end of the day, it doesn't feel like it.
What are you buying? Dark Angels non-vehicle armies are both quite good and numerous of men.
Are you sad that you don't have a hundred cultists? Or that an Intercessors only kill every other Troop?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2018/04/19 19:23:15
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
The question is, what can I bring that is worth to get over into the other zone to fight if I have something better that can just stay back and shoot
Yes, Rhino Rush works, but as a Space Wolves and Thousand Sons player, I don't see a reason to move my units to the enemy and get them killed for a minor benefit
Well, this problem is applicable to melee armies. I don't know that i'd rush tzaangors up the board in rhinos, either. They're cheap enough to run on their own/DMC or come turn 2.
As for what is worth it -- that depends what you're trying to do. This is just a quick list concept...
At first glance *gasp* tacticals? HAHAHA! Sure, it's unconventional.
But consider the following - those tacticals will always strike first in combat (Sicarius) and will reroll all hits (Cassius). They can also fall back and shoot at will (UM). So while their punching power is low they still have pistols and tons of utility. And i'm sure you could find room for a power fist or two on some sargeants.
Why Grav and not Plasma? Because I want to keep units "safe" in combat I don't want to blow myself up more easily when I retreat.
Why Flamers? Flamers are there for pesky minus to hit units.
Why Jump Packs in a Land Raider? VV are in the LR, because their goal is to get out and jump behind the lines and prevent retreats where possible while being as survivable as possible.
What if I face a harder melee army? I castle up with the Rhinos as shields and dakka the hell out of them.
Tigirius also gives -1 to hit on the LR. This activates on the enemies turn so there is no avoiding it. If he goes first then he makes the LRT9 and let it ignore MW from spells. Chronus heals the LR.
Attack bikes are there to prevent deep strikers from charging rhinos.
The question is, what can I bring that is worth to get over into the other zone to fight if I have something better that can just stay back and shoot
Yes, Rhino Rush works, but as a Space Wolves and Thousand Sons player, I don't see a reason to move my units to the enemy and get them killed for a minor benefit
Well, this problem is applicable to melee armies. I don't know that i'd rush tzaangors up the board in rhinos, either. They're cheap enough to run on their own/DMC or come turn 2.
As for what is worth it -- that depends what you're trying to do. This is just a quick list concept...
Going Rhino heavy it would be something like this (quick list):
Spoiler:
Imperium: Battalion Detachment - 1985 Punkte
2 HQ Wolf Lord
+ Power axe, Storm shield -> 20 Pkt. - - - > 94 Punkte
4 Standard
Grey Hunters
8 Grey Hunters, 7 x Chainsword, 7 x Bolt pistol, 5 x Boltgun, 1 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Grey Hunter Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power axe, Combi-plasma -> 33 Pkt. - - - > 162 Punkte
Grey Hunters
8 Grey Hunters, 7 x Chainsword, 7 x Bolt pistol, 5 x Boltgun, 1 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Grey Hunter Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power axe, Combi-plasma -> 33 Pkt. - - - > 162 Punkte
Grey Hunters
8 Grey Hunters, 7 x Chainsword, 7 x Bolt pistol, 5 x Boltgun, 1 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Grey Hunter Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power axe, Combi-plasma -> 33 Pkt. - - - > 162 Punkte
Grey Hunters
6 Grey Hunters, 5 x Chainsword, 5 x Bolt pistol, 3 x Boltgun, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Grey Hunter Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power axe, Combi-melta -> 37 Pkt. - - - > 144 Punkte
Grey Hunters
6 Grey Hunters, 5 x Chainsword, 5 x Bolt pistol, 3 x Boltgun, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Grey Hunter Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power axe, Combi-melta -> 37 Pkt. - - - > 144 Punkte
3 Elite
Wolf Scouts
7 Wolf Scouts, 6 x Camo cloaks, 6 x Bolt pistol, 4 x Boltgun, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Power axe
+ Wolf Scout Pack Leader, Power fist, Bolt pistol, Camo cloaks -> 15 Pkt. - - - > 132 Punkte
Wolf Scouts
7 Wolf Scouts, 6 x Camo cloaks, 6 x Bolt pistol, 4 x Boltgun, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Power axe
+ Wolf Scout Pack Leader, Power fist, Bolt pistol, Camo cloaks -> 15 Pkt. - - - > 132 Punkte
2 Unterstützung
Predator, Predator autocannon, 2 heavy bolters - - - > 150 Punkte
Predator, Predator autocannon, 2 heavy bolters - - - > 150 Punkte
5 Standard
Blood Claws
15 Blood Claws, 14 x Bolt pistol, 11 x Chainsword, 2 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Blood Claw Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power fist, Combi-plasma -> 40 Pkt. - - - > 273 Punkte
Blood Claws
15 Blood Claws, 14 x Bolt pistol, 11 x Chainsword, 2 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Blood Claw Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power fist, Combi-plasma -> 40 Pkt. - - - > 273 Punkte
Blood Claws
15 Blood Claws, 14 x Bolt pistol, 11 x Chainsword, 2 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Blood Claw Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power fist, Combi-plasma -> 40 Pkt. - - - > 273 Punkte
Blood Claws
15 Blood Claws, 14 x Bolt pistol, 11 x Chainsword, 2 x Plasma gun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Blood Claw Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power fist, Combi-plasma -> 40 Pkt. - - - > 273 Punkte
Blood Claws
10 Blood Claws, 9 x Bolt pistol, 7 x Chainsword, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Plasma pistol
+ Blood Claw Pack Leader, Power axe, Bolt pistol -> 5 Pkt.
+ Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power fist, Combi-melta -> 44 Pkt. - - - > 203 Punkte
3 Elite
Wolf Scouts
7 Wolf Scouts, 6 x Camo cloaks, 6 x Bolt pistol, 4 x Boltgun, 1 x Meltagun, 1 x Power axe
+ Wolf Scout Pack Leader, Power fist, Bolt pistol, Camo cloaks -> 15 Pkt. - - - > 132 Punkte
5 Wulfen, 3 x Wulfen claws, 1 x great frost axe, Wulfen Pack Leader - - - > 172 Punkte
5 Wulfen, 3 x Wulfen claws, 1 x great frost axe, Wulfen Pack Leader - - - > 172 Punkte
and I don't see the point for Rhinos
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 19:38:15
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2018/04/19 19:40:35
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Let's just burn it all down and turn 40k into what i always wanted it to be... just people setting up dioramas, taking some pictures and going home. Oh wait... that's basically 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 19:41:30
2018/04/19 20:15:00
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Consider Melta vs Plas Melta Guns used to not be particularly favored, because you typically didnt' need them for the big targets. But they were clearly better at cracking those hard targets than Plasma Guns.
They wanted to give PGs a safe-fire mode. Instead of giving them the safe-fire mode of Plas other factions had, they just made baseline Plas safe, and gave it a +1 mode that still Gets hot. That +1 mode is just *too good* at cracking the hard targets MGs are designed for, while the non-Gets Hot is still just as good as last edition. Further, with so many +1-to-hits or free-ish reroll-1s, Gets Hot isn't nearly as scary, despite being a much more negative result when it does happen.
In much of the game, they just "fixed" things by dialing the firepower up of the thing they were fixing. It destroys niches and breaks the durability-vs-firepower scale.
Just look at the Reapers vs Devs discussions. It is widely accepted that being able to pay for half again the firepower is much more useful than being able to more than double your durability! That should be a very obvious sign of a problem!
I'm hopeful that those who think the FAQ will lead to durability actually mattering will be proved right.
Side note - I really do miss the damage chart. I'd love it if we brought it back - even without the Explodes - as a replacement for degrading statlines. I think that'd be a *lot* more fun. Lascannons and Brightlances having a *chance* to destroy a weapon or lock a tread in one shot, even if it's unlikely, can be a lot of fun. Leads to a much more dynamic game. Just going off of remaining HP out of large-ish pools heavily normalizes the result.
I disagree with your side note. I absolutely hated the idea of these extra charts you have to roll on. I thought it slowed the game down way more, which is the opposite of dynamic.
2018/04/19 20:29:34
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Galas wrote: The biggest problem I have playing Space Marines (Dark Angels in my case) is that everytime I try to make an heavy infantry list... I just end up with a very small army.
Everything is so expensive, but at the end of the day, it doesn't feel like it.
What are you buying? Dark Angels non-vehicle armies are both quite good and numerous of men.
Are you sad that you don't have a hundred cultists? Or that an Intercessors only kill every other Troop?
No, not really, but when I make my list and end up with 1 rhino and two razorbacks, 3 inceptors, and 30 marines (Azrael, a Master in Terminator Armour, 10 hellblasters included), and in front of me I have a Eldar list with 40 guardians, 10 swoopins hawks, 3 transports, 3 tanks, an Avatar of Khaine, some Farseers, some Jetbikes, etc... it feels a little... unbalanced.
Yes, an Avatar of Khaine, I said I don't play in a very competitive meta, but even there I feel it.
As I said, I don't have that problem playing Adeptus Custodes. I'm always outnumbered but I never feel like I'm the underdog in strenght of my army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 22:29:58
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/04/19 23:04:59
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Yes, an Avatar of Khaine, I said I don't play in a very competitive meta, but even there I feel it.
I find the Avatar to be quite capable. Simply because isn't dark reapers shouldn't make the perception of it bad. I mean the damn thing is untargetable and can be resurrected even more easily now.
.
Eldar are free to explore their codex for once.
The unbalanced feel might be from the eldar taking mostly shuriken weapons and cramming in more models?
2018/04/19 23:16:53
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
I know what Galas is talking about, as I play both Dark Eldar and Chaos Marines. As DE i just have so much to work with. As CSM, if I'm actually using Marine units, I have like 4 squads. And they still die really easily.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2018/04/19 23:46:59
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
I think the main issue is they may need to rebalance Marine units in general. Giving their bolters a standard -1 AP would be a good start IMO.
Maybe give them some kind of rule for their armor where every AP weapon is a -1 to that AP? They're supposed to be in special armor right? -1 becomes 0, -2 becomes -1, etc, etc.
Just thoughts!
2018/04/20 00:31:54
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I think the main issue is they may need to rebalance Marine units in general. Giving their bolters a standard -1 AP would be a good start IMO.
Maybe give them some kind of rule for their armor where every AP weapon is a -1 to that AP? They're supposed to be in special armor right? -1 becomes 0, -2 becomes -1, etc, etc.
Just thoughts!
That was the topic of a similar thread I made awhile back. The two issues are certainly related. At this point we basically need to consider xeno and marine meta to be totally different.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I think the main issue is they may need to rebalance Marine units in general. Giving their bolters a standard -1 AP would be a good start IMO.
Maybe give them some kind of rule for their armor where every AP weapon is a -1 to that AP? They're supposed to be in special armor right? -1 becomes 0, -2 becomes -1, etc, etc.
Just thoughts!
Giving the basic SM 2 attacks is what is really needed.
Durability they are fine, point wise they are more resistant than light infantry to small caliber fire (except guards), but they are meant to be the perfect hybrid model, capable in ranged and in melee (and they pay for this). Too bad that they suck in melee. Give them 2 attacks and everything is fine again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 13:01:57
2018/04/20 13:04:54
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
Crimson wrote: I see that some people are trying to reinvent the Primaris Marines again...
Haha, yes. I always get a bit of a chuckle when people are like "What they need to do to fix Marines is give them -1 AP on their Bolters and 2 Attacks." Like... they did that already, that's what Space Marines have now. It's just the Legacy Marines that don't. What, you think you'll be getting anything Marine-related that's not Primaris in the future? You think Old Marines are still going to be part of the game when the next edition comes around? Hmmmm...
2018/04/20 13:46:20
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
I'm not saying I disagree with the FAQ; I actually liked the deep-strike nerf for the general gaming landscape despite the fact that I was building an old-school deathwing army for fun....
I didn't however, appreciate the unit cap per points level...
some of the most fluffy lists I've seen had a degree of unit spam? in 7th for example I ran an allied contingent of one Iron Hands tactical squad; 10 men, extensively upgraded with the kits, a 5 man tactical squad likewise converted with kits, a Techmarine HQ and 3 dreadnoughts with different loadouts... it was either a 750? or 1kpts list... forbidden in 8th.
My new deathwing army can't have more than 2 units of standard terminators in 8th at 2000pts... because they're not troops... last month I bought 3, and a set of assault terminators....
I understand why these changes have been made, spam has always been heavily heavily abusable.... I just feel like GW has not only f***ed my wallet this time, but uploaded headboard footage to facebook for my wallet's friends and family to see....
On the plus side; the only army I've used so far in 8th (Ultramarines) made it through with only a 15pts increase and a *slight* rearranging to accomodate that change.
GamerGuy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/20 13:49:18
2018/04/20 13:57:13
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
GamerGuy wrote: some of the most fluffy lists I've seen had a degree of unit spam?
in 7th for example I ran an allied contingent of one Iron Hands tactical squad; 10 men, extensively upgraded with the kits, a 5 man tactical squad likewise converted with kits, a Techmarine HQ and 3 dreadnoughts with different loadouts... it was either a 750? or 1kpts list... forbidden in 8th.
Seems... perfectly fine as an allied detachment in an army? It would be a legal Vanguard detachment in any game over 1000 points.
GamerGuy wrote: My new deathwing army can't have more than 2 units of standard terminators in 8th at 2000pts... because they're not troops... last month I bought 3, and a set of assault terminators....
You can have up to three units of Deathwing at 2000 points, and if by Assault Terminators you mean Deathwing Knights, they're fine too.
2018/04/20 14:26:08
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
I think part of the issue here is people seem to slavish follow Matched Play rules even in a casual setting. RE: Some fluffy armies impacted by the datasheet limits; will your opponent if you're playing a fluffy game really deny you playing, for instance, a Marine reserve company with mostly assault troops, just because "but matched play has a 3 sheet maximum!" even if it's not an event?
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2018/04/20 14:29:30
Subject: It's not the FaQ, it's core problems in 8th rearing their heads again.
GamerGuy wrote: I'm not saying I disagree with the FAQ; I actually liked the deep-strike nerf for the general gaming landscape despite the fact that I was building an old-school deathwing army for fun....
I didn't however, appreciate the unit cap per points level...
some of the most fluffy lists I've seen had a degree of unit spam?
in 7th for example I ran an allied contingent of one Iron Hands tactical squad; 10 men, extensively upgraded with the kits, a 5 man tactical squad likewise converted with kits, a Techmarine HQ and 3 dreadnoughts with different loadouts... it was either a 750? or 1kpts list... forbidden in 8th.
Just make one of the Dreadnoughts "Venerable" and that list is good to go. Patrol detachment for the main list and an Auxiliary Support Detachment for the extra Elite spot you'd need.
My new deathwing army can't have more than 2 units of standard terminators in 8th at 2000pts... because they're not troops... last month I bought 3, and a set of assault terminators....
Why not? The limit at 2K is 3 per sheet. That allows for 30 Terminators, which is around 1200 points worth. If you take any support elements (Deathwing Knights, Belial, DW command squad characters, Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders), DW is still as playable as ever.
