Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Adepticon has the final standings from all the tournies posted here:

http://www.adepticon.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=listarticles&secid=5

Poor Yakface placed 33rd in the 40K singles. But he did place higher than Mannahnin (the 40k Codicer) though....

One thing: it'd be nice if Adepticon would publish their Theme and Paint-scoring criteria. We missed out on huge theme points, and I'd love to know how it breaks down.

Hoping someone will have some of the armies used for each section, congrats to all, including Dakka Detachment 1, out of the top three you had the highest battle points, very nice.

Agree with Janthkin.

Dok's Tool's only got half points for both painting and theme, and we thought we were much better prepared this year with more highlights, army cohesiveness and a display board. We score actually less points in painting and theme than we did last year...

It's probably all just based on the judges opinion.

The Selection points, I expect, come from your opponents. (The "Is this army a decent representation of what it should be?" question, +3/+0 pts.) So, that'd be 24 points possible. But, given the guys running the show, I'd be very surprised if they didn't have a fairly rigid checkbox-style system for the vast majority of the painting/theme score, with some subjective points available to their judges.

Posted By whitedragon on 04/03/2007 12:32 PM
Dok's Tool's only got half points for both painting and theme, and we thought we were much better prepared this year with more highlights, army cohesiveness and a display board. We score actually less points in painting and theme than we did last year...

That is exactly what the SCGWL guys said. They did more work than last year, and scored a lot less.

Do you think it could be attributed to players lowballing opponents scores?

Or is this all scored by the judges?

I would think no organized dog balling was going on, I am sure the judges would have caught on if someone was given a consistent bad score and checked it out for themselves.

As I noted above, I don't think your opponents influence your painting/theme. There are zero places to input painting points on the score sheets, and (I think) your opponent's grade your Selection (not your theme).

Curse you Mark Parker!!!!!!!

I don't know about a criteria. The painting and theme judges had a clipboard in their hands and seemed to be writing something down, but they didn't talk to us at all as they were judging our display. The one judge just said, "Where's your banner?" The other judge noted, "it looked like 4 people painted each army. " and then promptly walked off.

Last year, they conversed with us and picked up models to look at as well as asking us to describe the display a little bit. This year, the whole judging spectacle lasted 5 seconds. Very odd.

Doing more work one year doesn't mean that your scores will get better. It means your keeping pace... hopefully...*grin* I'll say this the overall level of everything from the Gladiator to the TT to the Rogue Demon competition to WFB.. was elevated this year. Some of the best armies I've ever seen any place. Marc Parkers display base was crazy .. and just happened to be ever so much more crazy than B.L.O.I.D

I've won awards at Adepticon and gone home empty handed.... I don't do the work I do every year for Adepticon for plaques, prizes or praise.. it's a matter of putting my best work and product forward a matter of pride. B.L.O.I.D might not have gotten an award this year .. but Parkers and BLOID displays are something for the legend tales of Adepticon. Remember that time when Parker took the hall with his boyz .. and the S4 power claw. Remember that aircraft carrier that dominated 8 feet of wall space.

As for painting "*edited* and *deleted* as evidently ..Flatlanderboss points out .. that I didn't know what I was talking about .." 

Casus Belli team advice ..

Keep in mind . just using common sense .. the Judges don't have 30 minutes to spend with each team They are not going to notice every single detail in an army. Paint and Theme judging are done quickly. So put your efforts into making an impression vs subtle but technically well done stuff. The models and the armies should look like they belong together have something that ties across the armies. If you have some great conversion work or a particular paint job make sure your picking that figure out and showing him. Have some backstory for your Team forces to be togther and be able to talk about it in less than a few minutes. Engage the judges in talking about your army.

That said I think we have gotten some great feedback ....I'm sure it will be accounted for in the post-adepticon wrap up. Event organizers are always looking for better ways to grade and judge armies.

 

[qoute] That is exactly what the SCGWL guys said. They did more work than last year, and scored a lot less.

Appearance is scored a little differently than that.

Each 1000 points is judged on it's OWN merits. 15 points is highest, then 10, 7, 4 or 0.

Highest score possible is 60. But never has happened.

Highest this year was 50. (15,15,10,10) and last year's was 55 to the Best Appearance (15,15,15,10).

There were about what looks to be only 8 or 9 "15's" scored this year. Any team with a t 45 or 50 got them. Remember, this isn't out of 90 teams, this is out of 360 sections.

3% of the field got highest marks...and if you reverse extrapolate that back to a 30 person tournament, that make about 1 player...the winner usually.

So for a 360 judged item field, to award only 10 perfects is NOT out of the realm of possibility at all.

Congrats to both "2 Oblit 2 Quit" and "Wrecking Crew Detachment Two" for out-Bloiding Bloid.

We are honored to have such lofty challengers.

I was surprised my team's theme was so low. I chalked it up to the fact that the judges didn't read the 8 page book with each armies' background and instead decided that since 2 of the 4 armies were painted in a different color than the remaining 2, that we must not have worked on theme much.

I'm convinced that theme is very arbitrary and to pull it off a judge needs to grasp your theme at a glance. Having a 2 page spread that reads "Eldar Pirates!" in 72point Arial Black is going to be better than having that same army without the spread, no matter how well something is painted (since that would be paint scores!)

Hey Muwhe, Flatlanderboss, is there any sort of prize or anything associated with "40k Codicier"? I had to leave during Jervis' presentation to catch my flight and missed the awards ceremony.

There is an amazing plaque!!!

Besides being able to tell all of dakka you won it right here

PM Muwhe or myself with your address and we'll make sure the power that be (and kept your plaque for safe-keeping) get it shipped to you.

Honestly muwhe, spending 30 minutes and spending 4 seconds are two very different things. A reasonable five minutes is a reasonable five minutes. 4 seconds with no dialogue, when the year before there was dialogue, is just odd to me.

It seemed very unfriendly, haphazard, and random, without even a quick critique from the judges as to "what was good" and "what could be done better". It felt like we were below notice to the judges, and thats just feels kinda, wrong, at an event run by gamers for gamers. I personally felt that since we didn't have a powerpoint presentation and flashy LED's, or a 6th grade volcano science project, we didn't warrant any second glance.

And as a disclaimer, to avoid a flame war, these are just one gamer's observations, from his own perspective, and maybe mixed with a little bit of subjectivity.

No worries of a Flame War .. all I can say is that just what you witnessed the judges doing doesn't mean that was all the judges did either. I can not say for time spent I can say . if your talking 5 minutes a team .. with the 1 Theme and 1 Paint Judge system that they have used in the past .. you get a scoring cycle that takes 7.5 hours assuming they judge one right after another. You add more judges to the mix you get a different standard being applied to different armies. I know there was talk this year of adding an extra paint judge to be able to spend more time per army and a lot of consideration given to how to judge equally given 2 judges.. . It's all good feedback . hopefully we can improve on all aspects of the convention.

Speaking as an Adepticon Theme Judge.

You are correct, time is of the essence when doing this. No, I did not read everyone's 8 pages of fluff as time doesn't allow. However, I did take note of it when it was presented to me. Every team I judged I approached with the question of "tell me about your team" or something in that vein. I would ask if there were banners or tshirts not because I expected them but becuase due to space and time, they may not have been there at the time and I wanted to give people credit for it if they had it and it wasn't there.

What were some of the things I was looking for? Display bases that helped the theme but didn't detract from it. A good example would have been the four bug players that displayed the progession of a bug infestation, begining with a genestealer cult and proceeding to larger more advanced bugs, all the while showing the planets surface decaying. BLOID's base, while spectacular in its own right, didn't, in my opinion, tie the four parts of one army together as well as that one did.

Unified conversion work across the team. Ork players on the same team that started out from the same base for thier transports when they weren't plain stock "trucks". Or space marine teams that had the same bike conversion across their four armies...those things help tie things together.

Yeah, a banner might have gotten you a point from me, but that was about it. People flying in from the coast don't have the same transportation luxury that someone coming in from Lisle or Peoria might, and I was cognisant of that. A banner had to pretty much blow me away for that.

If I saw someone with a shirt that was obviously from out of state with a killer display base, I would ask them about it, how they managed to get it there, how was it constructed, how was it planned to have it there for participation.

And all of this had to get done with about a minute or two at most per team. If you didn't show alot of interest when I was there judging, I didn't feel the need to show a lot of interest in return. Mark what was visible, ask a few questions and move on.

I will add that we gave ample announcements during Friday night for teams to set up for prejudging that night. We had 7 out of 90 teams take us up on it. Prejudging allows more time for discussion, more time to pry out information, more time to read fluff. Next year, I hope more people take advantage of it. I think if we could get half done during prejudging, it would make everyone's Adepticon experience more enjoyable.

and for Matt's take on paint scores ....  

http://www.adeptuswindycity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44

 

I guess it is best to let the Theme and Paint Judges speak for themselves.  I'm going back to the Gladiator side of the room.

 

I'll also add that i did see judges spend some time with a list and then come back to it a little while later to actually give it a mark (or look at it fairly quickly and come back later for a better look). I've judged painting in a bunch of RTTs and this is generally how I work too. Sometimes you need to take a step back before you can give a list the score it deserves. (This is also how I've seen Golden Demon judges work too)

I also think that if people didn't realize that the bulk of your painting and/or theme score is likely determined by the first 30 seconds of 'wow factor' then they may have missed something. If an army scored 13 out of 15 I'd bet the judge had it pegged in the 12-14 range after about 10 seconds; after that you get a couple of points for details and such, but that initial range will likely stay the same.

Personally I'm impressed that 360 sections got judged at all. Having seen most of the armies I can't say that the scores look out of whack to me either, but since I wasn't a couple of painting points or theme points away from the hardware I can be objective a little more easily.

Kudos to the Adepticon staff for an all round fantastic weekend. The Canucks say "Well done eh!"

Cheers

I like the gladiator side of the room. We had chairs. At least us judges did.

Prejudging - what a great idea! I think that idea would help our (much smaller) local tournament. Most paint/conversion scoring is done while folks are gaming or during breaks between games, but there always seems to be some time before the tourny starts.

Also, thanks for your insights Shotgun. I'm always eager to hear details on how events like these are run.

I dunno. Unless there's a verbal presentation part of the score, why should interaction
be required? I'm of the think that people should be able to tell what is going on,
that judges should be knowledgable, then everything must be immediately recognizable.

There are lots of elements that can factor in to Theme, Manfred. Some folks had banner poles and elaborate displays. My team had matching t-shirts and dogtags. We played against team Angels of Death in round 1, which was two DA and two BA, matched together as they were in their 2nd ed codex- titled "Angels of Death". If the painting judge had not played 2nd ed, he would probably have missed that theme element unless the team pointed it out to him.

Posted By FlatlanderBoss2.0 on 04/03/2007 2:13 PM
Congrats to both "2 Oblit 2 Quit" and "Wrecking Crew Detachment Two" for out-Bloiding Bloid.

We are honored to have such lofty challengers.

Thanks Lucas.  Having our name mentioned in the same league as BLOIDs is quite an honor.  Heck - half the people in Toledo are probably rolling over in their graves with us now winning a 2nd Theme and Appearance award. 

I must say though - the level of competition for appearance was definitely stepped up several notches.  I saw a lot of armies that people put their heart and souls into.  We received only three points higher in appearance this year and yet had a final product that was 10 times better.  That is really a tribute to all of the teams and their efforts.  It was not an easy task to have all four players receive a 15, which is actually a really good thing. 

For those who put a lot of effort and did not receive an award, look at what you accomplished over the past year.  Like a lot of teams we were going for the #1 slot, but we came up short once again with 2nd place.  The thing that our team vowed beforehand was that what ever happened, we know we tried our best.  This was our best effort and that is all that we can ask for.  This really extends out to everyone.

All the painting, playtesting and work put into this event by everyone is completely insane.  I have been traveling to tournaments since 1998 and I believe AdeptiCon 2007 had the highest level of competition both in generalship and hobby skills that has ever been assembled.  This is a great tribute to all of the AdeptiCon staff, the players and the sponsors.  Congratulations to everyone. 

Just think, ~363 days until AdeptiCon 2008.  If you aren't planning now - you better get started. 

Shotgun, muwhe, et al:

The LAST thing I was trying to do was denegrate the performance of the judges. The entire Adepticon staff ROCKED, and the tournaments ran smoother than ever, in spite of ever-increasing performance.

I was curious about checklists, only in that if they existed, they'd give us a position to start from. I can hypothesize and extrapolate what sort of criteria theme is likely judged from, and if no definite criteria are available, that's what we'll do.

The Wrecking Crew picked up 4 awards; 2 in the team tournament, 1 Battlefleet Gothic, 1 No life award errr... I mean Codicier. It was a sucsessful year for us althought we did play some of the toughest competition there. Plenty of people brought their game.

Congratulations to all the winners and to those who participated.

p.s. I still have no life