Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I read the Yak article on carnifexes and was wondering if there is a post out there breaking down hive tyrants?

Is a winged tyrant a given in the army, do you tool it for max cc with maybe warp blast to shoot till it gets into CC? Or do people make a shooty tyrant with a couple guard?

Been going over all my armies and reworking some of my models and adding things. After I finish up my eldar I will start on my 'nids.

Flying tyrant is pretty much a given in most armies simply because it is our only fast synapse, and fast close combat monster. However, recently there has been a rise in the use of the dakka tyrant, with 2x TL Devourers. With a 30" threat range, and 12 S5 shots (re-roll misses, re-roll failed wounds), it can be pretty devestating. I personally like to equip mine for close combat though. Warp field is a must, IMO.. otherwise it is just krak bait.

Walking tyrants are pretty much always shooty, with two to three guard. Go with toxin sacs and a venom cannon. second weapon set is up to you, but TL devourers seems popular for when it gets closer to the enemy.

Two best load outs are the Devil Flyrant, and the Scything flyrant.

Either 2xTLDev, or 2xST.

Warp field will be much more valuable than Warp Blast.

Shooting and charging with a Devil Flyrant will usually do more damage than charging with a Scything flyrant; but if you are going to be locked in CC for continuous round, the Scything is better.

I can really see almost no reason to ever take the TLDev/VC combo. If you are shooting >18", the TLDev is worthless, if shooting <18", another TLDev will be better than the VC. (accept for high AV armor, and T > 8) Basically, all it gives you is the ability to shoot 1st turn, and costs you the rest of the game.

I'm tempted by the the TLDev/VC combo rather than 2xTLDev for a walking tyrant, simply bacause I already have some 2xTLDev Elite carnifexes - so a VC punch seems a useful option

Gabe - "Flying tyrant is pretty much a given in most armies simply because it is our only fast synapse, and fast close combat monster."

Not true, you can do some nasty stuff with winged warriors. Through I prefer to use winged warriors and a flyrant.

Posted By coredump on 04/08/2007 7:17 PM

Two best load outs are the Devil Flyrant, and the Scything flyrant.

Either 2xTLDev, or 2xST.

Warp field will be much more valuable than Warp Blast.

Shooting and charging with a Devil Flyrant will usually do more damage than charging with a Scything flyrant; but if you are going to be locked in CC for continuous round, the Scything is better.

I can really see almost no reason to ever take the TLDev/VC combo. If you are shooting >18", the TLDev is worthless, if shooting <18", another TLDev will be better than the VC. (accept for high AV armor, and T > 8) Basically, all it gives you is the ability to shoot 1st turn, and costs you the rest of the game.

There are several reasons to take a Venom Cannon and a TL Devourer on a walking Tyrant.


1) Escalation. If you've ever played a mission with it, you realize that a walking Tyrant with x2 TL Devourers generally doesn't get within range to start shooting anything until turns 4-5 (depending on when he arrives). By including a Venom Cannon the walking Tyrant can start contributing to the battle often from the very first turn he arrives on the table, if not the turn after that.


2) AV12 Skimmers, especially the Falcon/Fire Prism. S6 shots, even a whole bunch of 'em (the kind put out by Dakkafexes) aren't really very good at taking down skimmers, especially those with Holofields. In fact, if you start using your Dakkafex fire on trying to take down skimmers you waste the valuable fire your army has for killing troops.

While Gunfexes put out some really high strength Venom Cannon shots, the fact that they only have a BS3 and that they only fire 2 shots (as opposed to the Tyrant's 3) means that their shooting is better at taking out high AV vehicles (like a Monolith or Land Raider) than a Falcon with a holofield (which really needs a bunch of glancing hits to maximize the chance to get lucky).

So the walking Tyrant's 3 S8 BS4 Venom Cannon shots are perfect for attempting to take out skimmers.


3) After the first two points you might be saying: Well fine, give the walking Tyrant a Venom Cannon and be done with it. Don't waste points on a TL Devourer that conflicts with the Venom Cannon's style of shooting.

However, what else are you going to give the Tyrant? You certainly don't need any more combat prowess. A walking Tyrant should be escorted by 1-3 Tyrant Guard which means it will be a pretty fearsome opponent in combat no matter whether you take a Scything Talon or not. Also, you've already paid the points for a higher BS and Strength, so you might as well go with another shooting weapon.

The thing is, none of the other weapons stack up against the Devourer point for point, even though it doesn't mesh completely well with the Venom Cannon's shooting. And honestly, adding that one Devourer gives the Tyrant unit a dual role that means it will come in handy no matter what targets present themselves (much like the Gunfex).

Not to mention that there are several situations where the fire of the two weapons does moderately compliment each other: When firing at AV10 vehicles, the S5 Devourer fire can easily contribute a killing blow. Also, when firing the Devourer at a unit, 3 extra S3 shots can often be useful, especially when they can cause Instant Death if the model fails it's armor save. Lastly, if the infantry unit has 4+ or worse armor save, then the Venom cannon is likely to contribute another 2 casualties to the Tyrant's shooting.


So all in all the Venom Cannon and TL Devourer is the combo of choice because you really need/want the Venom Cannon for a number of reasons and the Devourer is simply the best back-up weapon you can get for the points.

so many choices so many choices..... thanks for the input. Have a winged tyrant built before this most recent plastic tyrant came out so been looking at things trying to decide if i need to rip its talons and claws out( ya i know rending claws pointless on a tyrant but it looked cool at the time) and replace with something else.

What I did in the past or planned was a flying CC tyrant with warp blast to kill marines and she flies in. But till undecided. Guess I need to plot out the rest of my army and see what I need the most....

Posted By Goony on 04/10/2007 4:37 PM
.. before this most recent plastic tyrant came out...

 

wooo, what, when, where?

I know that this choice will be scorned, but I actually like a winged hive tyrant with warp blast and two sets of scything talons. I find that the 2+ armor save is a little overrated. Anything I will be fighting in close combat will ignore cover saves anyway. Plus, the only ranged weapons that will ignore 3+ armor and not 2+ are missile launchers, battle cannons, and rail rifles. All of those are pretty easy to avoid when you have wings. Just pick your battles.

well, you can use the carnifex model to make a tyrant...

Cuda, it isn't just the AP3 weapons. *all* of the AP4/5/6/- weapons have their effectiveness cut in *half* by the 2+ save.
Plus even the AP2/1 weapons are reduced 16%

In CC, I don't know of that many attacks that ignore Armor-that you still want to be fighting. And all the normal attacks will be half as effective, and those that ignore armor, will be reduced 16%.

Warp Field is your friend.


edit: A Scything Flyrant can be very useful, and a good choice. It will just be better with WF instead of WB.
Plus, WB can't be used once you are in CC anyway.

Yak,

First I want to thank you for your post. I understand the time it takes to make such a well thought out response, and I appreciate it.

Now, for all the reasons I disagree...

In general, it comes down to specialization, or generalization. The same concepts as to keeping other units CC focused or shooting focused. For the majority of rounds and targets, you will either be thinking "What a waste this TLDev is." Or "Wish I had another TLDev instead of this VC".

Escalation mitigates the problem somewhat, but you still trade 1-2 rounds of long range targets, for 2-4 rounds of poor weapon load out.

AV12 skimmers, perfect example, those TLDev are completely wasted at this point. For just 8 more points, you can get a BS and get a 22% increase in effectiveness.
Also, a HT with VC/TLDev has the same effectiveness as an elitefex. The HT has more range, but also costs more. Which to use will depend on what other targets are available.

Targets that are good for a VC, are pretty good for a BS.
Targets that are good for a TLDev, are good for another TLDev.
From my perspective, the question isn't really TLDev vs. VC, but rather answering both questions
Why VC instead of another TLDev?
Why TLDev instead of a BS?
For shots >18", range>18", T>8, the Dev's are worthless, so the BS wins easily.
For shorter range, we need to see how the VC stacks up.

(wounds)
T VC TLDev
3 1.94 5.19
4 1.94 4.74
5 1.94 4.00
6 1.94 2.96
7 1.78 1.63
8 1.5 1.63

Yes a VC/TLDev is a bit more versatile, but versatility is almost the opposite advice given in every other case of Nid selection. Either go Shooty, or CC; either go long range, or short; either gear for tough targets, or easy targets; etc.
A VC/TLDev will be okay in a number of situations, but not nearly as good as it could be in most situations. I am intrigued that you mentioned the Gunfex, since you found the TLDev to be "obviously" a bad choice in that case.

If you want to target things that the VC will be good at targeting, then pair it with a nice S7 BS.
If you want to target things that the TLDev will be good at targeting, then pair it with another TLDev

The VC/TLDev combo will give 1-2 rounds of "Yeah, I have targets in range", then 4-5 rounds of "Wish I had a different gun combo".

Coredump:

The main crux of your post comes down to your two questions:

Why VC instead of another TLDev?
Why TLDev instead of a BS?


I believe I answered the first question partially in my previous post, but I'll expand a tiny bit. You need the Venom Cannon on the Hive Tyrant because it adds a bit of long range vehicle punch to the army. Especially with a Godzilla army you tend to have plenty of anti-infantry fire at less than 18" but you don't have quite enough Venom Cannon shots to go against a vehicle heavy army with 2-3 Gunfexes (depending on whether you take 3 Zoanthropes or a third Gunfex).

So, in short, as to why take a Venom Cannon instead of another TLDevourer combo? Becuase you have plenty of things in the army to take care of killing infantry (either in CC or at range) but you don't have too many choices when it comes to long-ranged vehicle killing so you have to take it where you can get it.

Now, as to why not take a Barbed Strangler instead of a TL Devourer as a backup weapon? I think you might be confused as to the Strength of a Barbed Strangler on a Hive Tyrant. With Toxin Sacs (which you'll have for the Venom Cannon) the BS is still only a S5 weapon, not Strength 7 as you indicate.

More importantly, a Barbed Strangler doesn't utilize a Hive Tyrant's natural bonus: It's 3 Attacks.

A fair average for the large blast marker (IMO) is to assume you will get 3 hits with the blast on average (2 full and 2 partial with 3 ending up hit). Against MEQs that would translate into 2 wounds and .67 failed 3+ saves.

TL Devourers on the other hand equal 5.33 hits (after the TL re-roll) and 4.75 wounds (after the Living Ammo re-roll) and 1.57 failed 3+ saves.

And the TL Devourer costs 12 points compared to the Barbed Strangler's 20 point cost!


So the reason a Barbed Strangler is the right choice on a Gunfex while the Devourer is the right choice on a Hive Tyrant is because of the differences in their statline compared with the cost of the weapons.

The S8 Barbed Strangler shot works for the Gunfex because it can penetrate some vehicles and it can instant-kill some infantry. A single TL Devourer on the Gunfex is less effective because the Strength of the Carnifex gets capped at 6.

The opposite is true with the Tyrant as it has more Attacks and a lower Strength, you want a weapon that benefits extra Attacks over a high Strength value and the Devourer is that weapon. A single S5 blast weapon that misses 1/3 of the time simply can't compare to the Devourer despite its superior range and especially not considering the points cost of the two weapons.


So I've never said this to myself:

"The VC/TLDev combo will give 1-2 rounds of "Yeah, I have targets in range", then 4-5 rounds of "Wish I had a different gun combo".


But I have been very glad that I have an extra Venom Cannon shot running around my army when I need it.

I understand, and agree, with the devastating ability of the TLDev. And I realize that the VC is a good choice. I am sold on both weapons. It is the combination I am not fond of.


I was having a discussion in another thread regarding the Deathspitter, and confused the stat lines somewhat. I was thinking the BS was S+1. Thanks for the correction.

So what I come up with, is that while having a VC on a Walking tyrant may be a good idea, there just isn't a good choice to pair with it.

VC/BS: Good for the same range, but the S8/S5 difference means that the BS will often be of very limited use on the targets that the VC will want to target.
VC/TLDev: Also will prefer to target a different type of unit, but if you do target infantry-types, at least the TLDev is really good at it; and fairly cheap.
VC/TLDeath: Best for similar targetting. But range is only 24", so lose some versatility in that respect.
VC/ST: Even cheaper, but again, opposite targets. But very helpful if you go with the CC target.
VC/VC: Expensive, always preferring the same target, TL tends to be of limited usefulness. Does provide 33% more hits.

So I understand the VC/TLDev choice better now. But looking at your example, and explanation. The WHT takes the VC because there is already plenty of infantry killing ability, so the fact that the TLDev is better at killing MEQ's is kinda against the role of the WHT in this case.

I dislike the VC/TLDev choice mainly because they are working against each other as far as target selection. Same problem I have with the BS (now :-)
The TLDeath will hit 89% of the time, and can target the same as the VC, though shorter range.
The ST is cheap, but really only comes into play when assaulted, which you can't shoot then anyway.
TLVC, the HT+Guards is costing over 200pts anyway, and wanted mainly for the VC, for 10-15% more points, you can get 33% more effectiveness