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One last try at making an effective Eldar army, this time at 1500 points. I feel it's geared to deal with everything. It's going to kill about two Dakkafexes per turn with the long range weapons and when the going gets tough it can deliver a rock hard close range assault. The army can play points denial pretty good too since the Pathfinders got great cover saves especially in ruins and buildings, Falcons are usually indestructible and the Autarch can stay out of sight.

HQ:

Autarch: 155p
Bike, Mandiblasters
Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher

Elites:

6 Harlequins: 162p
Shadowseer, 6x Kiss

6 Harlequins: 162p
Shadowseer, 6x Kiss

6 Fire Dragons: 96p

Troops:

5 Pathfinders: 120p

5 Pathfinders: 120p

5 Pathfinders: 120p

Heavy Support:

Falcon: 185p
Shuriken Cannon
Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon: 185p
Shuriken Cannon
Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon: 195p
2x Shuriken Cannon
Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Total Points: 1500

It should work fine.

It would be nice to get something stronger and longer-range than shuriken cannons on the falcons. There are some games in which you just want to skirt the board edges and stay out of counterfire range to avoid having all your falcons shaken all the time. One possibility to free up points for it would be to strip the autarch down and make him another fusion gun with 5 dragons in that falcon. Or drop a unit of pathfinders. The pathfinders will tend to get munched in HtH a lot (or flamed by deepstrikers) so those are VPs you can expect to lose in a lot of games.

Be careful sinking that many points into pathfinders. Their leadership is annoying, as they tend to fail target priority tests and can very easily be pinned by barrage weapons (or killed by podding flamer dreads). More importantly, you can only count on so much 4+ cover, so you would probaby be better served with 2 squads of 6. If you are just putting shuriken cannons on your falcons, put 2 on all of them. You are really going to want those extra shots after you drop off the harlequins. Seeing as only your autarch and the falcons benefit from the reserves bonus, you might be better off running a farseer with doom on a bike. Right now your autarch takes a bunch of points and isn't really strong enough in combat or shooting to justify them.

I think you have the core of what a winning Eldar list in this edition is. Good job.

And good job not buying all the pointless options for Falcons. It's not like they get to shoot very often, and their BS sucks crap anyway. 185 pts makes them a ridiculous bargain. They have a 2 shot S8 Ap2 gun anyway, might as well just use them as antitank rather than having those expensive S6 shots wasted often if you actually get to shoot.

I can't think of any way to make this list better without completely rewriting it, and even then I'm not convinced it'd be better.

Still, you're going to have rough games against Iron Warriors lists trying to pop all the tanks and kill enough guys before they whittle your guys to death with heavy bolters from preds. I think that type of game will depend on how well you do aggression-wise with the disco bandits.

Maybe against lists like 4-vehicle IW with las/plas squads you can do something like the point-denial game you talked about.

Play your pathfinders at extreme range or out of LOS, run your falcons up and trade your fire dragons and occasional falcon shots for the more expensive, squishier units (e.g. obliterators, vehicles) and try to score a points surplus assaulting with the harlies.

With a 162 pt squad of harlies I guess it can't be that hard to kill a single las/plas squad and then either disappear with the shadowseer+fleet or hit another squad before you get spanked, if you're careful and wait for a good moment to do it.

One nice thing people forget about falcons but I'm sure you didn't, is that most of the time they will get to shoot every other turn at the worst, since they can zoom 24" out of range if they get shaken and then return to shoot next turn.

So at the least you should be getting 18 pulse laser shots per game (6 per tank over the 3 turns they get to fire).

(assuming they actually perform as if they are as indestructible as the stats say they are, which seems to be the case most of the time).

Oh yeah, and if there's any way to get star engines in there (may not be possible at 1500).

Star engines allow a turn 2 assault, saving your falcons from a whole turn of shooting.

very nice list, looks good. only unit choice i question are the path finders. for the same price, you can have a squad of 10x guardian with just about any weapon. if you face a mechanized army, the snipers may not be as versitile as guardians with say a EML. os maybe replace 1-2 path finder units with guardian squads.

Maybe, swap out a squad or two of pathfinders for jetbikes and spearlocks?

And I don't know why, but I would give the autarch a fusion gun over the reaper launcher.

I gave him the Reaper Launcher because like Longshot pointed out there will be games when I am playing hard to catch and that 48" range gun and pop up attacks will come handy then. I think he's a versatile unit as he can kill enough MEQ over 6 turns to earn his points back, provides valuable close combat punch, fills the mandatory HQ slot and gives a reserve roll bonus for my tanks.

I'm taking the Pathfinders because of their 3+ or 2+ cover saves, ability to pin, and the fact they cause a lot of wounds on TMCs each turn. I also like the 72 point Bike squads for turn six objective grabbing but I didn't have any room in my 1500p list. I went against star engines because they can't be used the turn troops embark or disembark and it would've been nice to move 32" the turn when the Falcons come in from the reserves and pick up the waiting Harlequins and Dragons. I also went against unnecessary weapons on Falcons for the same reason as I went against Prisms: Grav-tanks don't get to shoot often but they do get to move. They are at their best as transports that deliver their cargo, hold their own VPs and grab mission objectives. I'm not saying those 10 point extra Shuriken Cannons wouldn't be useful at times but 1500 points doesn't allow for any fat at all.

Pathfinders are, while expensive, both durable and long ranged and fairly quick (move+fleet to hide them and move through cover). simply the best troops for this list.

Another potential tough matchup for you that occurred to me is the Gravtank Tau lists. Not really sure what would give you the edge there, but probably again VP denial and trading your 100 pt fire dragons for a Hammerhead.

Would it be possible to bump all of the pathfinder squads up to 6? It's going to be 72 points, which is heavy...could you cut the biketarch and put in a cheapo-farseer with doom/fortune/guidance?

I think it's a very solid list as is. I only have one point for consideration. I've actually posted this a couple times, so what's once more?

I would consider dropping Vectored Engines off of the Falcons and taking those (significant) points to invest in upgraded Falcon weapons or additional Pathfinders (some folks have used math-hammers to show that 6-man squads are the most cost effective units). Reason being is that Vectored Engines combined with Holofields/Spirt Stones only come into play 1 time out of 12 when rolling two dice on the damage table. I agree with the position that they are extremely valuable when that 1 time in 12 hits, but my argument is that they are not really worth the points they cost. Just food for thought.

Posted By ubermosher on 04/11/2007 9:29 AM
I think it's a very solid list as is. I only have one point for consideration. I've actually posted this a couple times, so what's once more?

I would consider dropping Vectored Engines off of the Falcons and taking those (significant) points to invest in upgraded Falcon weapons or additional Pathfinders (some folks have used math-hammers to show that 6-man squads are the most cost effective units). Reason being is that Vectored Engines combined with Holofields/Spirt Stones only come into play 1 time out of 12 when rolling two dice on the damage table. I agree with the position that they are extremely valuable when that 1 time in 12 hits, but my argument is that they are not really worth the points they cost. Just food for thought.

I disagree with removing vectored engines. my own experiences with playin eldar vs eldar and just my eldar. A crashed falcon nets nothing, but a broken one on the ground still firing everything is a threat. In several games my opponent has had to deal with the landed falcon or pay the price (getting shot) if they don't go for the kill. Which dilutes their forces for that turn. Dilution is good :-) For 20pts to keep a falcon a threat its a small price to pay... its much like having car insurance, its annoying but the 1/12 chance that you need it its a life saver. And 1/12 comes up at least once if not 3 times during a game with lots of shooting going on.

Having VE lets me play bolder as well.

 

I disagree. I've never used prisms, so I couldn't say, but a falcon is a very effective gunboat. When you have three of them and good terrain, at least a couple of them are shooting and ripping things up every turn. But they need volume fire (starcannons or scatters) and range to make up for their crappy BS.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 04/11/2007 11:57 AM

I also went against unnecessary weapons on Falcons for the same reason as I went against Prisms: Grav-tanks don't get to shoot often but they do get to move.

I disagree. I've never used prisms, so I couldn't say, but a falcon is a very effective gunboat. When you have three of them and good terrain, at least a couple of them are shooting and ripping things up every turn. But they need volume fire (starcannons or scatters) and range to make up for their crappy BS.

i think 2x suriken cannons are your best bets on the falcon. they are cheap enough where you can afford a turn or 2 of not shooting. Also with this set up, you have a good chance of mowing down horde armies and light tanks/skimmers. 8 shots are pretty nice.

Here's some math that is maybe more convincing than how cheap they are:

Range of shuriken cannons: 24"

Things that can shoot at you if you close to 24" range:
-devourer fexes
-zoanthropes
-terminator assault cannons
-plasma guns
-gauss rifles

None of these things would be able to return fire if you sat back at 31" and fired your starcannon/scatterlaser and pulse laser.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 04/11/2007 1:02 PM

i think 2x suriken cannons are your best bets on the falcon.

Here's some math that is maybe more convincing than how cheap they are:

Range of shuriken cannons: 24"

Things that can shoot at you if you close to 24" range:
-devourer fexes
-zoanthropes
-terminator assault cannons
-plasma guns
-gauss rifles

None of these things would be able to return fire if you sat back at 31" and fired your starcannon/scatterlaser and pulse laser.

starcannon is the only other weapon ive considered for the falcon,  hunting power armored units. However, because you are dropping off you payload, you would be within 24 inches of those units either way. you want to get those harlies close enough to charge next turn, and that will already put you less than 24inches awaay.

One thing a lot of people are forgetting is that those Falcons aren't going to be sitting at 30"+, they'll be getting close in to deliver their cargo and after that they'll be hunting close in or going for objectives. Considering how light on numbers you are, you need all the firepower you can get. This is where the 2x shuricannons set-up is worthwhile.

I'd consider dropping the Rangers to 2x6 and then using the points elsewhere.
A unit of 3 Jetbikes would help with more mobile objective claiming and can also be used to tie a weak/counter shooting unit up for Harlequin assault. However thats not really a criticism, just an idea if you're thinking of tinkering.

Yeah, but then you're moving over 12" per turn so you won't be shooting that turn anyway.

In tournament play, I've come up against two basic kinds of armies with my mech Eldar:
1. Armies that I want to zoom in as quickly as possible and assault
2. Armies that I want to stand off from and shoot at long range (and maybe assault something isolated to gain a temporary advantage in the endgame)

Daemonbombs with big princes and greater daemons, zilla nid phalanxes, Lysander wings and drop pod lists are common examples of the second kind of army.

So my falcons are either standing off and plinking at long range, or zooming in too fast to shoot anyway. There's never a time when I would want a falcon to be shooting at medium range.

Flavius to play the devils advocate, you'd never buy the underslung shurikan cannon upgrade for the catapults then?

I play a rather similar list, with three Falcons. Mine are a bit more expensive, with scatter laser plus shuricannon. The same holds for the Autarch, with reaper launcher, very nice!

Three squads of Pathfinders are a bit much, two may find decent cover while infiltrating. You could drop one and add a minimum-sized Jetbike squad with shuricannon accompanied by a Spearlock, as already said.

I always buy the cannon upgrade--it exponentially magnifies the firepower of the falcon at medium ranges, especially effective against side armor and things like the greater daemons with crap saves. Also I like having my falcons as expensive as possible because of points denial.

I just always carefully consider if it's safe to close in and shoot the cannon also, or whether it would be better to stand off at long range and not shoot the cannon.

All of the skimmers i'm building in my new Eldar army will have under slung shuricannons, both prisms and falcons. It's too much of a cheap upgrade for any tank.

Any SM army pays 10 points for a pintle mounted storm bolter which fires 2 shots over 24". By comparison, this upgrade gives you 3 strenth +2 shots, gives you longer range as apposed to the gun than you would've had, gives you an extra threatening weapon (3 x BS4 S6 on the prism and 3 BS 3 on the falcon. These are great on most vehicles side and rear armour.

I know you have to take the cost of the twin shurikens out of it but to me the're almost worthless on those skimmers.

As another plus it'll allow you to stay out of rapid fire range (Necron).

S6 multiple shot weaponry is just tooooo tempting for me.

I do like your list though. Very solid.

Posted By Taoofss on 04/11/2007 12:23 PM

i think 2x suriken cannons are your best bets on the falcon. they are cheap enough where you can afford a turn or 2 of not shooting. Also with this set up, you have a good chance of mowing down horde armies and light tanks/skimmers. 8 shots are pretty nice.

I am pretty sure the shuri cannon shoots 3 per turn while the scatter shoots 4.

Personally I would go for the scatter for the extra shot and range. i would also take the shuriken cannon as well. The extra s6 shots are worth the points.

ender502

The biker Autarch can't move and shoot his reaper because it is not mounted on the bike, right? Or am I missing something?

I don't think this concept will work for what you hope to do with tournament armies. Too many of the top tier armies will outshoot/keep your falcons not shooting and have too much numbers/speed/demons to get too close and dig out those pathfinders. I believe it's better to to tool your Eldar into doing something very well, to really stomp the suitable opponents and play vp denial against worst case scenarios.

He can move and shoot the launcher.


I'm not sure what you mean. This is an Eldar tank rush army and I can't imagine a list that could close in more reliably and then destroy the enemy. It could be streamlined by dropping the Pathfinders altogether and replacing them all with bikes but I've always done very well with a more flexible approach. I don't have any doubts that shooty armies couldn't shake the Falcons -- In fact that's the whole idea. Shake the tanks, I will still come to you, drop my cargo and kill you. Remember that only one in 36 glances destroys a Falcon moving fast. Iron Warriors have a lot more to fear from Harlequins, Dragons and Holo-Fields than Eldar have of Obliterators and Predators.

To others, I decided not to comment on whether Falcons should have Scatter Lasers or dual Shuriken Cannons etc because those variants can be tried and tested on a game by game basis. I can equip all Falcons with Scatters and Shuriken Cannons if I drop one unit of Pathfinders and replace them either with a Vyper or three bikers.

Keep us posted on your results, Therion. I've made my loadout decisions based on eyeballing the numbers and getting consistently good outcomes in games at 1850. I'm keen to hear about how different loadouts work at 1500 in your game environment.

I'm currently painting a Lizardman army and expanding my undead Bretonnians so that I can make a viable VC list out of them as well so it will take some time and money before I can start my own Eldar army. However I intend to borrow my friend's Eldar models in order try this army out in one of the upcoming tournament this spring or summer. I'll do a report as usual.

This is the problem with overly convincing types. First you highlight why Eldar army isn't good enough to compete at the highest level, then the argumentation disappears when you do the list yourself. You end up contradicting yourself. Basically you decide something and believe it and argument it to everyone. Just an observation, something most profilic gamers who post actively seem to share. I'm not trying to agree or disagree so much, just to maybe make you think about it. Next you will try to convince I'm entirely wrong and illogical.

I don't think the interiors of the Falcons are gona reliably eat through that many top tier armies. And most calculation sof what something kills fail to consider the enemy is shooting back, there is terrain and range and...

But I'm also interested to see how it does. Good players of course do well with most decent lists and this is a decent list no doubt.