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I haven't retracted any of my statements about the failures in Codex: Eldar. Having holo-fields or underpriced space clowns doesn't mean an army book is a success, it only means that if you max out on the very few unit choices that are actually points effective (or more than that) you'll end up with a good army list. All of the Eldar army variants that I actually liked were made unviable and now only the Swordwind remains. I've constantly been told that my view of the Eldar as a hybrid army was wrong and that the real Eldar are a swift grav-tank based assault force and that this ideology has now been properly represented in the new Codex. That statement holds true as far as all the cheese in the list goes.

My statement about the failures of 40K haven't gone anywhere either. It's a great game to fantasise and chat about but the actual battles have little to do with tactical challenges or strategy and overall it's a vastly inferior game system in comparison to Warhammer Fantasy or a few non-GW games. Most people I know play 40K because their friends do, because they like the models, and because it's always fun to roll dice and remind yourself how bad a game this edition of 40K really is. Feel free to disagree.

As far as the list goes, it's designed to specifically deal with Godzilla Nids. Chaos will most likely get nerfed to oblivion this year because of another complete failure of an army book so it's only obvious that the armies that intend to compete have to be able to kill a lot of Carnifexes.

Finally, I don't go around making threads proclaiming the fact that I'm not infallible. At first glance the Eldar army book made me so frustrated and displeased that I simply couldn't believe that the few underpriced gimmicks that the army list possessess such as holo-fields and Harlequins could provide enough muscle to make the army compete at the highest level. I was wrong and those gimmicks are certainly powerful enough to do exactly that, but like I already pointed out that fact doesn't make me like the Codex one bit more than before, it just makes it playable.

I made a pretty similar list. Just better. ;D

Autarch, Lance, Mandi, Fusion Gun 140
Autarch, Lance, Mandi, Fusion Gun 140

Falcon, 2 Shuricanonnon, Vengines, Fields, Stones, Starengines 210
Falcon, 2 Shuricanonnon, Vengines, Fields, Stones, Starengines 210
Falcon, 2 Shuricanonnon, Vengines, Fields, Stones, Starengines 210

6 Harlequins with granades and kisses, Fusion Gun 158
6 Harlequins with granades and kisses 148
6 Harlequins with granades and kisses 148

3 Jetbikes 66
3 Jetbikes 66
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1496 pts


Second turn charge with 18 Harleqins and 2 Lance-Autarchs anyone?

Even focused close combat armys should lose to this. Not even cover helps. Points denial works too.

So you think you can walk through another persons list with 18 models?

migsula, you need to look back at the rumors pages. The consensus was that the lists would all two small troop sqauds, 3 falcons filled with either harlies or fire dragons, and whatever points are left into the moderately good fast attack choices. (guess what units get used) No one is happy with the current Eldar dex, the vast majority of the units are useless, and those units that do work are hideously overpowered.

GW absurd policy of making units that were good bad and making units that were bad good creates more problems for game balance than any amount of sloppy rules writing ever could. (its also the equivilent of telling your customers 'up yours' after they just bought $500 worth of stuff last edition. But they do that so often were used to it by now.)

Er, you'll find that 6 Harlequins with a Shadowseer (to get the granades(sic)) and all with kisses is 162. How you got 148 I don't know.

Raider: Just a better list? I doubt.
Falcons need stones, holofield, and vect engines.
Two Autarchs are too much as they are not cc monsters. Take one and give him a reaper launcher.
Harlies get plasma grenades if you upgrade one to a Shadowseer, that's 162 pts as pointed out by Anathema.
The Jetbikes without upgrade (shuricannon) are a bit pointless. Better use Pathfinders. Let them infiltrate. In this way, they can keep away nasty infiltrators (Chaos tacticals with 2 plasma guns) from your deployment zone.

Posted By Therion- on 04/13/2007 1:13 PM

As far as the list goes, it's designed to specifically deal with Godzilla Nids. Chaos will most likely get nerfed to oblivion this year because of another complete failure of an army book so it's only obvious that the armies that intend to compete have to be able to kill a lot of Carnifexes.

I agree, that's the most likely scenario.

Posted By IntoTheRain on 04/13/2007 3:37 PM


migsula, you need to look back at the rumors pages. The consensus was that the lists would all two small troop sqauds, 3 falcons filled with either harlies or fire dragons, and whatever points are left into the moderately good fast attack choices. (guess what units get used) No one is happy with the current Eldar dex, the vast majority of the units are useless, and those units that do work are hideously overpowered.

GW absurd policy of making units that were good bad and making units that were bad good creates more problems for game balance than any amount of sloppy rules writing ever could. (its also the equivilent of telling your customers 'up yours' after they just bought $500 worth of stuff last edition. But they do that so often were used to it by now.)

I actually belong to the (existing!) group who really likes the new dex, and if you remove some of the overly dominant armies outhere, the playing field is very level for a multitude of setups.  It's a more versatile list than the previous, even if the pinnacle of number crushing is different to what it used to be. I've seen Eldar at the top three of pretty much all of the recent tournies. (Adepticon, GTs, Fanatics). Most missions these days require you to act not just kill, and eldar do speed very well.

GW, and human beings in general, have a habit of over shooting with corrections. Same goes for estimations of potential.

I stand corrected. Army builder messes up the cost under certain conditions I havent figured out yet. Seers kiss was 0 points for example until I made a new unit. Miraculously then AB got it right.


This kind of kills the above list, but I feel the main concept is still valid.

The concept revolves around not using Fire Dragons and maxing out untargetable hard hitting stuff like Lance Autarchs and Harlequins, while denying the opponent targets like Pathfinders.

IMO this best supports the underlying theme of point denial.

@ Raider/Therion: That looks like a list with good MEQ killing potential. However, both of these lists seem to lack a way to deal with hordes (150+) models. There simply are not enough shots that you can take in the course of the game to reduce all of those units to non-scoring status. Would you play points denial and hide until you ran to contest objectives on the last turn? My point is this: I have a difficult time seeing 18 T3 models walking/dancing their way through 250 points worth of conscripts, and the same is true for fire dragons, there simply are not enough shots to make a difference in a properly constructed horde army.
cheers

From my experience hordes are rare because few people enjoy to actually build or move that many models. The next problem of horde armys is that they spread out just because of all the models and therefore become vulnerable to flanking attacks (thus only part of the numbers can actually do something).

That aside Firedragons will work bad against a horde because their weapons provide too few shots and they cant hide in close combat.

Hareleys on the other hand should do well, because they can hide in close combat and their initiative 6 allows them to strike first even if charged in almost any case.

Btw if someone bothers to find the math we did, when the codex came out, you will see that 18 Harlequins can eat a lot of models in one go, so overwhelming one flank shouldnt be impossible.