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It took a bit longer than expected but we finally posted our Warmachine Prime Remix review on TGN.

Great review as usual.  My only comment:

In your conclusion I think an additional "pro" for Prime Remix is value.  Priced at $25 (US) for the soft cover and $35 hard cover, in full color, the quality of this book is unmatched at this price point. 

The only reason I mention this is that I've found myself using Prime Remix as a new benchmark when looking at new rule books.  For example:

When looking at Aeronautica Imperialis at Adepticon, there are 20 pages of rules (B&W) then about 130 pages of color pictures and background material.  It is hard cover, but at a price point of over $60 US, I was stunned as I though Prime Remix was a better looking product at roughly half the price. 

Just think "porsche" when you look at AI, Russ. In fact, as it's from FW, think "heavily aftermarket-customized porsche."

(It is a game with interesting potential, though.)

You are also looking at a much more limited run for AI, which usually means an increase in cost.

Not much stuns me anymore Russ, every day I am at the gas pump I think how much gaming stuff is worth it.

Seems like a good time to finally get off the GW horse and climb on the WM bandwagon. New Core Rulebook with all the trimmings . . .

I have a review of AI coming, based on reading through the book and watching 4-5 games played over the weekend. It is a cool game concept, but price point and availablity (i.e. distributed by Forgeworld) will make it very difficult to achieve any kind of main stream success.

I didn't mention the price as it is in line with the other PP rulebook releases. It wouldn't be fair to drag AI or some other title into the review unless there was a reason to be comparing them.

AI is expensive. I am guessing that AI has about a tenth of the press run of Remix and printing costs are front-loaded on print runs. So typically the more you do the cheaper it is per unit.

And, it must be said, it is an FW book. They are routinely more expensive than a comparable book. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Dark Age or Infinity in terms of prices since those books are also priced as entry vehicles into a gaming system

Yep, agreed.

And Prime is a good buy if you are new to the game or getting back into it, and it also makes the old rulebooks really cheap on ebay if you just want to take a look at it.

No you're right, a direct comparison to another product might be inappropriate in a review.  However I think the value is still great, even within the PP brand.  The book is priced at EXACLTY the same cost of the original Prime, but now it's full color with all new artwork!

Also, look across the industry.  Is there a similar book in size and quality (new art, color) at that price point?  $25 is a great price for that book, or any book of similar quality.  Even in the RPG arena.  I'm not trying to pick on GW, but rather applaud this particular product.  I don't know of another game book (miniature, RPG, etc) produced at this price with such high production value.

e.g. When reviewing a camera, reviews often comment that the MSRP is a tad high for this feature set, or conversely, the camera is a great value given its features and price point.  Is such a comment inappropriate for games?

Regardless of the reason (large first printing, etc.) the book is arguably the best value in the industry right now.  With a bit of luck other manufactures will follow suite and the price of core rule books will come down, while quality goes up. 

But it is also just a reprint..... that begs to be bought because it is clarified and FAQ'd. I don't really need new artwork and background as I don't care much for either.

Now you want cheap... heck Urban Mammoth and Metropolis. Now that is cheap (free).

Posted By Toreador on 04/10/2007 8:14 AM
But it is also just a reprint...

A reprint would be the same material. Remix has new art, new fiction and all the rule clarification and changes in it.

Its a significantly different book than Prime was so I don't think its justified to call it a reprint.

Okay, not a reprint

But it is just everything new organized into another book, that is a lot like the previous book that was out. To me it was only a good buy because I had previously sold my other book. Most in our group didn't bother to buy the new one as it's mostly a rehash.

Posted By RussWakelin on 04/10/2007 8:04 AM

e.g. When reviewing a camera, reviews often comment that the MSRP is a tad high for this feature set, or conversely, the camera is a great value given its features and price point.  Is such a comment inappropriate for games?

Its not inappropriate, I just think there needs to be a context for comparison.

For example, my AI review, which I am currently working on, will compare Remix and the AI rulebook (and Infinity as well) in terms of design and layout but only because I am trying to make a point about the design of the AI book.

In that case I think it is appropriate.

I think comparing the price of Remix and AI would have been appropriate if they were comparable books. But they are different types of games and different genres and even different books physically so adding comparisons to AI would have been quite a stretch and FW would have, I think, been justified in critiquing me for doing so.

I think that you are all correct that the price could have been mentioned and I will add that to the review as a small update.

Posted By Toreador on 04/10/2007 8:36 AM

To me it was only a good buy because I had previously sold my other book. Most in our group didn't bother to buy the new one as it's mostly a rehash.

I think the convenience alone is worth the price. I now have all the rules, errata and clarifications in a single book. I never liked having to print out FAQs and errata and carry them around... maybe I'm just too darned lazy :-)

Posted By thegrognard on 04/10/2007 7:47 AM
Seems like a good time to finally get off the GW horse and climb on the WM bandwagon. New Core Rulebook with all the trimmings . . .

Try the game first. Some people don't enjoy the playstyle and
prefer the squad level stuff and customizability of 40k.

I agree. The play styles are totally different and comparing the two doesn't make sense. I like both for different reasons.

Warmachine is a lot like a cardgame. It's all about the combos. You have to really be up on what your opponents stuff can do individually, and how that will all work in concert. I have seen many a game where one player is on the ropes badly, but can pull a specific combo off and get a caster kill. It is a very different beast than most miniature games out there. I am still very much on the fence about it.

Posted By Toreador on 04/10/2007 9:10 AM
Warmachine is a lot like a cardgame. It's all about the combos. 

Warmachine is nothing like a card game. And while there are stackable effects in the game it isn't all about combos. This is a bit of an over-generalization.

Edit: When you first play the game, especially with starter set games, it can seem as if the entire thing is decided by someone using a Feat. That is not the case once you start playing 500pt games.

Meh, that is my impression about the game. It is a lot like it, but with more maneuver on the tabletop. The army list building is all about the combos you get, and how you can use that to win the game, also with units. Adding special models to units to get more effects, and boost the power. To me it plays like MTG with miniatures.

And yes, that is just my opinion, and does generalize it, but that has been my overall impression of the game since it's inception. I am not saying it is bad, but it works a lot different than say Flames of War or WHFB.

Posted By Toreador on 04/10/2007 9:28 AM
Adding special models to units to get more effects, and boost the power. To me it plays like MTG with miniatures. 

Its more accurate, I think, to refer to it as stacking effects. Magic can generate huge amounts of damage or excessive effects from particular combos and this doesn't have a counterpart in Warmachine.

Magic is indeed all about combos but Warachine has a lot more going for it than just the stackable spell effects in the game.

I think its a matter of degree. Magic is solely focused on building combo effects and often dealing with universal effects (like Goblin attack decks that use global effects to boost Goblin stats) that have no counterpart in Warmachine

And is more apparent in different Factions in Warmachine, and is very apparent in some caster kill combinations. It also has "power pool" management that is also part of some card games.

Coming from a long time wargamer, that has played card games, it seems to me more akin to that than a "traditional" wargame. Started with Menoth and now play Cryx, which is all about the combos.

At least you don't have the "building" part of Magic, ie "Deckbuilding".

/shudder

(that and random card draws)

I must admit that I enjoyed Magic for what it was, but when I look back
on it I wish the game had another power limiting factor in place of "Rares"
and "Ultrarares"

I had fun playing WM when it first came out, but as the number of units and casters started to grow, and when the combos started becoming harder and harder to predict (I'll use this guy's special ability to do this, then cast this spell, then channel through this guy to use this, then pop my feat, then... my brains started bleeding), I kind of lost interest as I just had to stay on top of new units/combos too much.

I only played MTG when it first came out and started getting popular, but I remember the same thing. Kitting out a deck to get the quick player kill with combos and generally not being fun anymore.

That being said, I'll still probably pick this Remix up. It saves me having to carry around a ton of books in order to game and since WM is becoming more and more popular (I even lost my main WHFB opponent to it), I better start studying...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/10/2007 10:39 AM
I had fun playing WM when it first came out, but as the number of units and casters started to grow, and when the combos started becoming harder and harder to predict (I'll use this guy's special ability to do this, then cast this spell, then channel through this guy to use this, then pop my feat, then... my brains started bleeding), I kind of lost interest as I just had to stay on top of new units/combos too much.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wait...so you're saying that you don't like it because it's not predictable?

j/k...I know what you mean. I just played my first game against a Hordes list (Vayl-Seraph-spam) and was completely rocked due to not knowing a thing about them. That being said, I've now got a much better idea about how I could have handled it.

What I like about WM over 40k is that it *is* more unpredictable - even the fact that everything is sum of 2d6 or 3d6 means that you can pull off some bs moves in a pinch.  However, there are fewer "can't be beat by anything" builds in WM.  If you've ever played multiple games against a Drop Pod Marines, Daemonbomb, pure ZillaNids, Tau Air Force, or 4-Ord/9-Oblit Iron Warriors, you know what I mean.  Sure, there exists a rock for each of those 40k scissors armies, but most armies will be reduced to just hoping for good dice and bad scatters.

/ontopic:  Remix Good!  Great to only have to carry around one book.  And my Repenter's flamethrower now causes Fire, yippee!

I have seen games of Warmachine where one side hasn't lost a fig and utterly destroyed the other. Haven't seen that in too many other games,.... yet

Early on with Menoth I couldn't win a game against Khador. With more units and abilities it evened out the field, but with just the original book I couldn't do anything game after game. It is what made me sell my first bunch of WM figs on Ebay.

Remix also toned down 2 of the casters that were hard to win against. Just for that it is a good buy.

You've NEVER seen this done in 40k? Really?

Maybe he meant it the other way? Lots of stuff was killed but
the other side won?

I have never seen it in 40k. Aways a few figs here and there lost, but never without any figs lost at all. Bigger games and more figs also though.

I've seen it in patrol games with Tau armies. But not in larger 40K games

In W40K, it happened to me at least twice - when I uttterly destroyed a Grey Knight force in a tournament, and a Dark Angel force in casual play, with my 3rd edition Eldar. I felt sorry for my opponents in those games - it wasn't fun to crush opposition to this point for neither of us.

Incidentally, it never happened to me in a 500 pts game of Warmachine.

So what's the point?