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Posted By Toreador on 04/13/2007 9:29 AM  How long can you keep pushing stuff out before the entire thing weighs itself down?

I completely agree, Toreador.  I really do feel that Rackham's woes are a harbinger for Privateer Press.  At some point, supporting the old stuff (as PP has gone on record as being committed to) becomes a liability.

I'm not shouting doom or anything, just advancing with trepidation.  I particularly feel that Superiority's focus on infantry and solos was a disservice to the their own game.  Infantry and solos have stolen a large part of the warjack's thunder. (Vilmon can junk a warjack while a Marauder can't even touch him.)  And infantry's supposed weakness has been severly diluted by the number of fearless troops and incredibly high leadership scores. (A lesson they should have learned from Games Workshop.)

I only think these sorts of issues will compound (there are two warjacks and four solos scheduled for the Pirate release and the next Warmachine expansion is supposed to focus on 'Characters') and there will come a time when a blinking 'Reset' button will start to look very attractive.

That said, Hordes is an amazing game.  The value of warbeasts is programed right into the most basic mechanic.  Warmachine is my first love but Hordes, I think, is a much better game.  (Even though they still have some silliness like eight wound infantry.)

Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/13/2007 10:35 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/12/2007 8:10 PM

40k really does support come from behind wins too. It just doesn't make them so easy by making one hero more important than the rest of your army put together.

I find that to be more of an exception than a rule for 40k. I like the game and I'm one of the few remaining players of it at my LGS. And I've managed some come from behind wins. But you have to admit that too often its very much like rock/paper/scissors.

Only if people aren't building take-all-comers lists, IME. There are a few just terrible matchups (Orks vs monoliths, for example), but I rarely see those come up.

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/13/2007 10:28 AM

Posted By malfred on 04/13/2007 10:19 AM
Well, it has weighed down a bit. There's no Warmachine expansion this
year but instead we're going to see Hordes in summer and magazine preview
expansions for Warmachine. So slower, yes, but until they expand the
game size to 2000 pts, the nature of the game will change only so much.

Yowza.  I can't even imagine playing WM at that size.  The rules set is just too focused on individual models.  How long would that take?  I've had a couple of really tactical 500pt games of WM take two hours or so, and at this point  I'm reluctant to expand to 750.  The additional levels of complexity and length of game time needed with multiple casters does not appeal to me at all.   1k still doesn't get you the model count or "full size battle" feel of Warhammer, but it actually takes longer to play and has a lot more stuff to keep track of.  2k just seems insane to me, unless they change the rules substantially.

I remember that oomiestompa and Darth Thanatos played a four hour 2000 pt. game or something like that.

I like the epic warcasters, so I prefer 750 games.

Great points.

Longevity:  You guys are right, while I like a lot about PP, they still haven't proven the long test of time yet.  Say what you want about GW, but you have to give them props for being around as long as they have, and for growing most of that time.  That is no easy feat in this industry.   My guess on how PP will continue to grow the Iron Kingdoms franchise is follow the current model.  I think WM (the 4 core factions) is essentially done, i.e. I'm not sure there is that much more to add.  There are, of course, the new Merc factions (pirates...arrrgh) but I think the growth now will be similar to how Hordes 'expanded' WM.  New "Games" that link in to the existing products. 

At some point you do have to say stop, i.e. This game has all the factions and unit options it can handle.  Jervis essentially just said that about 40k at Adepticon, that GW is going to cap the number of codex's in 40k at 12-15. 

Perhaps what we're learning here (gamers and the industry) is that there is a delicate balance between too few faction options (arguably the reason Starship Troopers never took off) and so many factions that the game becomes unstable and difficult to balance/support.

Rackham: I've tried to get into Rackham games in the past and just couldn't.  My biggest problem is I dislike their rule sets.  While their sculpts are amazing, I think it  is their game rules that has given that company the most problems.  I'd chalk that up to trying to grow a game on a weak foundation.   Again I'd like to throw some props to GW in this area, in the early days they recognized that some of the fundamentals of 40k were weak, and weren't afraid to do a total re-write.  Version 2 and Version 3 are good examples of this.

WM Game Size: My current favorite game size in WM is 750.  In terms of game length it feels to me like playing a 1800-2000 point game of 40k.  Against some players I can get done in a little over an hour, against others it can take 4.  (Against poor Bill last league I won a 750 point game in 20 minutes...sorry Bill, I'll get ya that rematch.  Next time keep Karchev AWAY from the Hunter and Ironclad. :S ) 

I don't think the game mechanics of WM make the game slow at 750, I think what happens is the tactical options grow exponentially as game size increases.  Players get overwhelmed with all their choices each turn, and end up thinking for long periods before moving a model.  I've taken to using a simple chess timer (you can download them for free on a PDA) when playing and it ads to the excitment.   Sure both sides make mistakes, but the game plays smoother and has a bit more of the hectic feel of actual combat. 

I've never tried 1000 points, but i do think it would be fun.  I can't see an untimed 1000 point game getting done in less than 3 hours.  I'm guessing that'd be like 2000+ point 40k game in terms of length.  2000 points of WM would, indeed be an insane game size for WM, just as a 4000 point battle of 40k would be quite a conflict. 

 

This is my favorite aspect of Privateer, their system of new releases is brilliant. 

Instead of releasing new army lists (codex's) they release new game supplements, which are big books.  Each supplement includes new units and material for all the forces in the game.  For example, Apotheosis introduced giant "Unique Warjacks" and "Epic Warcasters" to the WM game, and each faction got one.  Superiority introduced Cavalry to the game, and each faction got mounted units, etc.

 

And as I see it, it's a TERRIBLE system.  Ok, great, when a supplement is released, everyone gets something.  Since I only have interest in one faction, I absolutely 100% do not care that the other three get identical somethings.  Does that make me selfish?  Most likely.

 

To make it worse, even when things are "released" with a new Privateer supplement, they aren't really released.  It has happened before that it's 6 months (or more) before the models ever hit the shelves.  If the models I wanted out of a supplement are the last ones scheduled for production, I'm totally screwed.  So far I think that's happened every time. 

 

Yeah, I know that this is in some respects the case for GW and all other manufacturers.  But I've never felt the animosity towards GW's release schedule that I have towards Privateer Press'.  At least when GW tells you it's coming out, it actually is, and in a resonable time period.  For the most part, I vastly prefer GW's codex release schedules.

Posted By Bob Lorgar on 04/13/2007 12:27 PM

 I've never felt the animosity towards GW's release schedule that I have towards Privateer Press'.  At least when GW tells you it's coming out, it actually is, and in a resonable time period.  For the most part, I vastly prefer GW's codex release schedules.

I had to read this four times to make sure I was correct in interpretting your meaning.

You clearly don't play orks.

On Rackham: I have to agree with you, Russ.  The rules are all but indecipherable and even when they are agreed upon by opponents, they clank and grind like an old transmission on its last legs.

(CAUTION...SARCASAM AT WORK)


Come on Red Stripe, be fair, the ork codex is ONLY 8 years old. Just because there is still no Zzap gun trukk model or battle wagon model or decent trukk model or ...

And it's not like Eldar players had to wait THAT Long for a wave serpent.

I'm sure that Space Marine drop pod will be ready any day now...

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/13/2007 10:50 AM

Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/13/2007 10:35 AM

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/12/2007 8:10 PM

40k really does support come from behind wins too. It just doesn't make them so easy by making one hero more important than the rest of your army put together.

I find that to be more of an exception than a rule for 40k. I like the game and I'm one of the few remaining players of it at my LGS. And I've managed some come from behind wins. But you have to admit that too often its very much like rock/paper/scissors.

Only if people aren't building take-all-comers lists, IME. There are a few just terrible match ups (Orks vs monoliths, for example), but I rarely see those come up.

Ork vs anything is a terrible match up. I would like to see GW get pass the point where list construction is the game. Of course I don't subscribe to the theory that its the player's fault if the game isn't balanced. If I give a monkey a gun and he shoots somebody with it. Who really is responsible?

A bit late...
No, I'm just that good.

I too am a huge fan of PP's model for releases.
I dont' care that it takes 6 months for that beasty it'll all be worth it in the end since there will be something you didn't know about waiting in the wings bfore you know it.
"Splash Releases" GW style never realy did it for me. I was on cloud 9 when the new edition hit followed by a huge Marine retool (I've got BA and DA) but it faded fast. I'm all PP right now.

@PP
You´ve got some interesting points red stripe and I agree on many with you.
I think that PP will run faster into the problems than the other companies especially because their system is so succesfull. Hordes nearly killed PP and only money from the outside rescued them. Rackham has over 10 years on its back with Confro and I think that´s the longest you can run a skirmish system before it goes down under it´s own weight.

I see the following coming in one years time:
- PP will go for plastic miniatures ond probabaly for prepainted as well
- 2008 Hordes and Warmachine Redux (Redux) will be published
- PP will realise that it also has to go for Rank+File

Also PP has to decide which way to go with its miniatures, while most are really great, some are rather old school and can´t compete on the market, they will have to go for one style.

@Rackham
They have learned and the conversion of Confro tells a lot about it. Also with the AT-43 rules they have proven that they can write rules finally. http://www.at-43.com/pdf_multi/AT-43extraits_EN.pdf Check it out here.

It remains to be seen whether they are able to use the advantage of being on of the first with prepainted/plastic.

Those are some horrible predictions, all going against the stated interests of the game company, and/or the game play of the game.

First, the game already has rank and file. I know my Menoth opponent always ranks up his Flameguard, and I frequently pile up the skorne models in line. Do you have anything that gets a shieldwall bonus? You're putting it in a line then.

What I think you meant was "PP is going to have to go with large mass units", aka 20-40 man units, instead of max 10-man units. I just don't see that happening. You're talking about a different game at that point.

And you obviously don't know Mike McVey (one of the principles of the company), if you think they'll go pre-paint. He's probably the most arrogant "purist painter" on the planet, there's no way in hell PP ever goes pre-paint. No Way. Ever.

Finally, they agonized for 2 years over the decision to do warmachine Prime, so I can't see them combining the 2 rulesets into one. What's the value add there? What do you get out of it, that you didn't already get out of warmachine prime? Just adding in warlock/beast rules? Nope, there's just no need, they won't do it.

I also don't get the constant comparisons of Rackham to Privateer Press. Hell, I didn't even know Rackham had a frigging game system for at least 2 years after I saw their models on the net! With Warmachine, however, my first exposure to the game was their free downloadable rules, even though they didn't have any models. I just don't see how you can compare the 2 companies. Rackham was clearly focused on producing high quality models, and slapped a game around it. PP has always been focused on producing a high quality game, with high quality models used to play the game.

Ah yes, also--never been wiped off the board in WM or Hordes without losing a model, in 200+ games. Had it happen, once, in 40k, in 400+ games. I was playing Kroot Mercs, and got wiped off the board against Black Templars, without killing anything.

Your full of crap.

Try being an ork player. Or a sisters player. Or a woodelf player. YEARS go by before the army gets any attention, instead of you being impatient for a couple months for a model or two you want, that you could prozy because at least you have the rules.

Well, RnF does not really apply to the rules of PP now, since zhey are simply skirmish. But you observed it right. Some armies have enough units to field a RnF army. And there is the problem. How do you sell more minis to the already established gamers. Bringing new factions on the market that may interest players is risky and adding to existing armies a much shurer way of doing it. You can argue it any way you want. You need to make the gamers buy more. If they are thinking of anything different at PP they don´t know nothin about business.

They might be opposed officially against prepainted, but how often have they said they won´t do what GW does just to do it anyway. The same people that railed against LotR publishing policy of the books now welcome Redux. I think many still see PP as a rebel against GW and because of this are more prone to let it run with something they would mob another game company for. Take for example the whole supply stuff they are producing now. I can still remember the nice day at SPIEL when one of them said that they would not produce colors, because they don´t want to emulate GW. It´s one thing what you want to do, but another thing what pays your bills.

But, we will see in one years time what will have happened until then.

No.

People are willing to give PP more slack for the simple reason PP does what it says, it communicates with its customer base, and is fairly honest.

GW has had years of antaganizing its customer base, jerking them around, and being condesending in its own magazine to its customers.

People are willinng to give PP much more slack than GW simply because PP treats them better. Peroid. Its something GW needs to relearn.

Look at it this way Duncan:

When PP screwed up in superiority with leaving text out, they came out and TOLD their public what happen, why, apologized for it AND importantly what they were doing to correct it.

When GW has a priniting problem.....they just reprint the codex without telling anyone. Ala chaos codex(which has FOUR different printings)


When PP has to delay a release, like the new releases last year in september, the came out and TOLD us why they push new releases back, and the reasoning behind it. Since they have been fairly straight folward....people are ok with it. Or at least can be patient about it.

When GW comes out and says the ork book is delayed again....becuase they're having problems with the vehical kits.....no one really believes it, because we heard the lies and stories before.


Its something GW needs to learn. To communicate with its customer base effectively instead of locking themselves in the ivory tower.

Customers have rule questions or complaints....so GW's solution is to close down the boards that are their only communication.

Customers have rules questions and complaints.....PP answers the rules querries with a living FAQ and sets up a board on their webpage where you can complain and *female dog* about things......

GW needs to learn about communication. Its really that simple.

Posted By carmachu on 04/14/2007 7:22 AM

People are willing to give PP more slack for the simple reason PP does what it says, it communicates with its customer base, and is fairly honest.

GW has had years of antaganizing its customer base, jerking them around, and being condesending in its own magazine to its customers.

People are willinng to give PP much more slack than GW simply because PP treats them better. Peroid. Its something GW needs to relearn.

Relearn? That implies they've actually known how to do it, which in my experience has never been the case. They've consistently followed their current line of thought as far back as I dare recall.

Relearn. I dont know how far back you go, but RT and early to mid 2nd they were quite receptive. The studio was approachable and open.

I'm not sure when it all changed, perhaps when they went to a publicly traded company.

I'm curious whether or not the private business model is sustainable. With the
corporate model, you have an entity protecting an IP. Do you think 40k would
have lasted 30 years under the control of a smaller entity?

No, from a certain point on you need external money. But if you really need to put as much stock into the hands of others as GW did, well that´s rather a question how fast you need the money. Old rule: keep more than 50% in your hands.

Games Workshop and Warhammer have stood the test of time. How many games have come and gone trying to compete? Some were even around for a couple of years before they faded into obscurity.

Warzone, Chronopia, Vor...etc. And now we have Confrontation, Warmachine, etc. Will they last out?

I think it will be more interesting to see what Privateer Press is doing 5 years from now. IE, will we see Warmachine 2.0? Will we have new factions, an advancing story? Will there be a new game mechanic? Will some of your old stuff become unusable as the game gets revised? And if it doesn't, then what incentive is there to get new stuff?

AND BACK ON TOPIC!

I got Remix, and damn its a nice book. I started with the Hordes book anyway, so I didn't even realize that the original warmachine didn't have stuff like base sizes and what not listed in the stats! Anyway, great book!

The story has been advancing for your FYI

The story advances, but because of the hero-centrism they've found funny
ways of "killing off" characters.

Most of the time, they just hurt them real bad.

And then they resurrect the dead ones.

I'm worried that the story will turn into a bad version of the X-men-- so many
powerful characters that they start introducing neuter characters that later
become super-powerful just to justify their existence.

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 04/14/2007 2:57 PM
No, from a certain point on you need external money.

GW is a public company because they over-extended themselves financially at one point and required external capital to keep the company solvent.

GW is also a horrible company in relation to its customers specifically because it is publicly held and its #1 priority is to its shareholders. If they can keep their shareholders happy by coming yo your house and kicking you in the teeth they would. In fact if shareholders felt it was the best policy they would be legally required to.

PP is privately held and is responsible ultimately to its customers. Hence the difference in their approach to their customers. GW thinks that it can continue to burn through 12 year old 40K players to maintain its profits. And consequently they do.As long as this burn rate is enough to maintain profitability they will do so.

PP has no such option. If they want to retain their customer base they have to keep them happy, GW has a well established business model that does not require them to keep their existing customers happy.

Well, PP has already overextended itself when they published Hordes and many in the business know that they got money from the outside to keep the business going. What we don´t know for sure is who gave them the money. They by now may not have gone public, but they owe someone something. So, they are somehow in a similar position as GW was in the past. Also you don´t need to put all your stocks on the market. Rackham has also gone public, but they held 75% of their stock, which I see as a wise decission. As long as they hold the bigger ammount of stocks the other holders will never have that much influence on them as they have on GW. And though they do not realize it that much, GW has to keep their customers happy to stay in business. And if I have a look at their sales, they still make a lot folks happy.

Posted By whitedragon on 04/14/2007 4:11 PM
Games Workshop and Warhammer have stood the test of time. How many games have come and gone trying to compete? Some were even around for a couple of years before they faded into obscurity.

Warzone, Chronopia, Vor...etc. And now we have Confrontation, Warmachine, etc. Will they last out?

I think it will be more interesting to see what Privateer Press is doing 5 years from now. IE, will we see Warmachine 2.0?

Going to call HORSEAPPLES unless you have some hard facts to back it up....you know, facts, links, or something to call proof...

 Edit: Language.  Watch it please.

Furthermore, if your looking at their sales and saying their still making alot of folks happy, you might want to try reading them again....its been steadily going down for years...at least in the US. And recently elsewehere...

Posted By carmachu on 04/15/2007 7:03 AM

Furthermore, if your looking at their sales and saying their still making alot of folks happy, you might want to try reading them again....its been steadily going down for years...at least in the US. And recently elsewehere...

"A lot of folks" is still right, even if it's a shrinking number.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/7/postid/153450/view/topic/Default.aspx

If they're making 25 million bases per year, that's a lot of model kits. 

Well, you remember the time when suddenly their release schedule wo top-down? And how they had problems delivering and suddenly they got rather fast on track?
But you won´t find a pdf on the net that substitutes my claims if you are asking for that. But as most folks her can attest I rather seldom say things that are not true. Some don´t want to believe, but in the end most of my "predictions" come true. Not because I am that good at guessing, but because me and some friends do work for several companies in the business and it is rather necessary to be in the know about your potential partners as a freelancer.

I would rather say that you should get a grade in accounting and business before you accuse others of not being able to read the numbers. A number alone says nothing, you need to know what led up to the number.

You made claims here about PP, now I ask you to back them up. If you cant, then its pure BS or specualtion. I can back all my claims up of GW....

Yes, I believe it was september last year or the year before. Tehy had to push back release a month to get caught up with prime stuff for new players.

So I should believe your story of a friend of a friend,a nd what you say is always true. You realize how rediculious that sounds right? You KNOW so I should believe you.



Ah yes, I should get a degree because you KNOW and I dont. Amusing.

I do have a degree in business. I run one small one. Borrowing like they do is not a good sign, especially twice in a row. Neither is declining sales for years in a row and ESPECIALLY declining again after you cut the fat and tighten the bootstraps, so to speak.

Perhaps your the one that needs a degree. GW's finacials are not looking so hot. Its scary when one of yoru major holders liquidates their holdings, like one did in Novemeber. Confidence in GW is not that good right now.