Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play tested this list in a Seek & Destroy against a Tau list and a Secure and Control that turned out to be a Dusk turn 1 versus another vanilla marine and I liked how it played.

Space Marines @ 1750

Commander Master w/ bp & pf~101

Command 1x5 w/ 2 heavy bolters~105

Razorback w/ heavy bolter~70

Tactical Combat 4x5 w/ heavy bolter~320

Razorback w/ heavy bolter, searchlight~284

Tactical Combat 2x5 w/ missile launcher~170

Razorback w/ lascannon, searcglight~182

3 Predator Annihilators w/ lascannon sponsons, searchlights~438

LS Tornado~80

 

I was thinking of swapping out the commander for a librarian codicier w/ bp for the same cost (101 points) as the rites of battle really didn't play as much a factor as I anticipated.

I usually run a Master w/ termie armor & command termie mounted in a Land Raider, 4 combat tacs w/ heavy bolters in Razorbacks and a LS Tornado.

Any comments?

This list is decent. Your marines need to be better equipt for close combat, and your tanks are huge targets. If you can keep your predators alive, and yur opponent fails a lot of armor saves, you have a decent shot. I would advise against razor backs, because tey waste a lot of points, and can get shot down faily easily. maybe buy a dev squad with te points, or some termies.

IF i saw that list sitting across from me in a toury.... i would just rub my hands and lick my lips... you need too get some C/C goodness in there. just having one powerfist in that army will hurt you a lot. JUst thing of it like this if all your tanks are out of action, and you see a horde of Orks coming at you, you have two options too Run( which i would do) Or do a death and glory move and hope too get Kudos points from the Ork player..... your really lacking in C/C options there.

Escalation would be tough. MC lists might be a difficult match up also. You have a good anti horde list though. I would also drop two Razorbacks for 2 more tornadoes. Keep play testing it though and post some more results. Try it against MC lists and 3 Falcon variants and you will have a better picture of how it will do at GT. Never leave home without your predators having extra armor also.

With that many troops, you'd probably do better sacking some of the razors for rhinos (a loss in heavy firepower, admittedly) and then put in Power fists instead with some vet sergeants.

Your heavy bolters seem a little less valuable in combat squads and over abundant, once you fire those its all over no more movement (not good) especially since you have so many razorbacks, if you scaled back those razorbacks or and converted your predators to lascannon twin links with standard heavy bolter sponsons. That brings the cost of your HS to 315 Freeing up 100+ points for some more vet sergeants and power fists, then replace maybe two razorbacks for rhinos (loss of two HB with a pickup of 6 from the predators) and then you might be able to outfit the squads with vets and hidden fists. Additionally replace the combat squads HB's for a melta gun and you have tank busting power combined with a mobile assault

Another weakness....no smoke launchers on your vehicles, especially the transport vehicles. Razorbacks will get chewed to pieces by any heavy weapons fire, there is no reason to have that happen while you are trying to get marines in the middle of the field. If you aren't using the razorbacks as transports then you might want to convert to a more shooty list (moreso than you already have), however it doesn't sound like that was what you are going for. You don't have a whole lot of heavy fire, but you don't have a lot of assault.

My general advice is that you NEED to have powerfists if you plan on getting into close combat, you don't even need to plan on it, there are many players in a GT who will bring a fight to you as Stargate has made apparent.

If I was facing this list with my Necrons I would love it. All those juicy vehicles and small troop squads without a Vet with PF. Heck I'd even charge into HTH and have a great chance of winning with my warriors.

I agree with ATI on the Preds. Drop the sponson Lascannons since you have to stay still to fire them all anyway. I would take the Bang Bang preds with HB sponsons. Alson drop the PF on the commander it defeats the purpose of him have a higher intiative.

I'd make your command squad more close combat capable.

Drop all the searchlights and give the vehicles Extra armor and Smoke launchers for 8 pts they are a life saver.

God forbid you face off against Dark Eldar. A couple of Raider squads and an archon w/like 8 incubi mounted on a raider and you're toast by the end of turn 2.

If you want to go shooty, which it seems you are trying to do, this is what i would do.
-I would lose the rhinos/razorbacks altogether and pump the tact's to 8 man units.
-Use 4 tact's with heavy bolters and plasma (or melta), and 2 with missile launchers and plasma. Put fists on your vet's and try to get them in some cover.
-Put a Master w/command (5 marines, 2 with HB's) with a Codicier Librarian with Fury of the Ancients.
-Then skimp down to just 2 pred's with TL-las HB's on sides w/smoke and extra armor.

Then you'll have about 150+ points left over to do with as you please depending on how you outfit the librarian and master.

What chapter of marines are you playing? Have you decided which advantages/drawbacks you want? Might I suggest "TAKE THE FIGHT TO THEM" and then drop ALL your bolters for BP's and CCW's. And then take "CLEANSE AND PURIFY" so you can keep all your rhinos and just give yourself 2 meltaguns in each squad. It might sound cheap but its VERY effective.

WOW!  Ork hordes, necrons and dark eldar lick their lips, rub their hands, salivate over juiciness and force me to pray to a higher being when across the table.  If it weren't for the fact that none of those above mentioned armies have beaten similar lists I've played in a tourney setting, I would be nervous.  But it is a new edition, so the hair is standing up on the back of my neck and a bead of sweat is trickling down my left temple.

I agree that escalation missions need to be practiced, these will be my next priority.  I'm looking to switch out the command squad and razor for another LS tornado in the next game I play. 

The one rebuttal I have, and this may be due to my ignorance of new army list configurations under the new set of rules, is the impotence of the preds and razorbacks.  This combination of 3 preds:4 razors has been tried and true for me for many games in GT/RTT/GD and casual settings.  The other unit I don't have that I usually play is the Land Raider, but I don't see how having more razors replacing that unit hurts me too much.  Granted I am relying on my tactical ability to utilize terrain and the tank formations to make smoke redundent and unnecessary.  I never liked all the bells and whistles in the wargear/vehicle upgrades and have learned do without them in my lists.  Also, I realize the lack of close combat effectivenes, but my lists are always slanted heavily to shooting to compensate.  I have been cursed from day one playing this game in the assault phase.  It seems that no mater what advantages I have been afforded in the past, I suck arse in close combat with the dice gods.

Thanks for the feedback, I will continue to test it.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of necron list would roll through me?  I have yet to receive a good old fashion behind the woodshed beating from any necron list.

XxRVNGRDxX,

I will be playing a list connected to crimson fists lore, hence the mandatory powerfist on my commander.  However, I wish to play them vanilla style with no traits like I have since I started playing 5+ years ago.  I am leaning heavily toward a librarian, but I have rarely used them in the past so I am debating.

This is the 1850 list that I run with for just about all events out of town.  Its always done very well for me and I usually end up in the top 25% of most tourneys with it.  Its only real weekness is assault armies.  I can usually out shoot most opponents starting turn 3. 

Necron Lord  WarScythe, Resurrection Orb, Phase Shifter, Chronometron

8 Immortals

3 X 12 Warriors

4 Destroyers
4 Destroyers
10 Scarab Swarms   Disruptions Fields

Monolith

Only problem I see is that the list is so static. Other than the speeder, only the razors can move and fire, and they can't move more than 6" if they want to do that.

Its a good list...

On a personal level I think you may have too many Razorbacks for my liking, but thats down to the fact that I dont tend to use transport tanks very much as I mostly use fast attack vehicles and fast moving troops.

I might recomend dropping a razorback or two and a squad of troops so that you can field 10xAssualt marines with a veteran with powerfist and either 2flamers or 2plamsa pistols depending on your flavour. this costs between 260pts and 262pts depending on wether you choose plasmas and/or flamer.

I could also recommed throwing a 136pt chaplain with boltpistol and jumppack to join the assualt marines and SM turn 1 but that would severly cut the rest of your force and firepower so might just say use the chaplain in a 2000pt using above list

I also agree with XxRVNGRDxX suggestion of using a librarian

In my 2000pt battle I field a Epistolary Librarian with terminator armour, admantle mantle which prevents instant kills (taking a single wound instead), I keep his original Emperors wraith power but give him Fury of the Ancients as his second power.

Total cost 184pts and +10pt if you give him a familar for +1 initiative.

I simply charge him down one side of the battle field doing FOTA as he goes. Works very well against Tau and other troop based armies and can hold his own for a good while in CC. If against vehicle based armies then its wasted points as I found out hehe

even if you use him against LIGHTLY armored vehicles (11's or 10's) the F O T A can still work its magic. Plus it has pinning. So the squads with low LD will just stand there and Thumb their rear-ends.

I like the whole vanilla marine thing, but if you were to drop a few transports you could put in a bike squadron or something equally as effective to help tank hunt. On the other hand I like your confidence in your list and thats what matters.

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 04/18/2007 4:30 AM
 +10pt if you give him a familar for +1 initiative.

Illegal.  Familiars may not be used with terminator armor.  Also, if you're not using SotEW then why pay full cost for FotA?  Save some points and just upgrade instead of paying full price.

Okay, to answer your question Mnemoch, yes your right terminators cannot use familiars. I got muddled as I sometimes use him in a command squad without T armour and give him the familiar then. Sorry for confusion there.

Second, the Emperors wraith is a strength 4 AP 2 blast weapon, if faced with opponents with a save of 2+ its a choice between using the higher strength FOTA with pinning checks. Or having the option to instant wound models with a lower strength weapon if they get to close for comfort.

Managed to take out a few broadsides for Tau that way which saved me the game as they would have blown away my tanks on his turn. Also, sometimes you are in a postion where you can only hit one or two squads so its good to have another option open to me.

I have managed to wound a T6 and T7 carnifex with SotEW. And then my librarian ran in and chopped him up. Granted you need 6's but its still possible.

Mnemoch,  Only the heavy weapon troop/command squads are static.  Plus, if I kept them in the razors, disembarking and rapid firing produces 8 shots, so technically, albeit not too effectively, even they can be considered mobile.  Otherwise, I have the rest of my force, which includes 7 razorbacks, 1 land speeder, and 3 preds if necessary (that's 11 out of 18 units).  I know that land speeders are more effective, but it's not like the r'backs can't move.   I have been receiving flak for my preds w/ lascannon sponsons, but there is no difference in usage and movement with my configuration, only cost.  The preds can still only move 6" and fire that twin-linked godhammer turret.  The heavy bolters will only bounce off what I plan on firing at most of the time.  But if I want to remain stationary and fire, now I have 2 additional hammers appropriate for the target.  There are pros and cons to both configs.  But I disagree that my list is static, only close combat challenged.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "static". "Slow" would have been better.

I would have to echo the caution against so many vehicles, esp. the lightly armored lick my lips at an easy target razors. An eldar shooty list will have you down to 0 vehicles by turn 2 and be giggling madly that all they have to do for the rest of the game is hide. Hopefully you play against opponents that are better sports than that but, you never know at RTT's.

A guard shooty army(ie every guard army) will also hae on average 6 to 7 S9 shots from lascannons, 2 to 3 S8 shots from battle cannons, 4 S7 shots from and a load of smaller things like heavy bolters to catch you from the side. Also note that battle cannons and earthshakers against 5 man marine squads = rapid loss of scoring units. One hit from an ap3 template is likely to kill half of a 5 man squad quickly.

Chaos loves light vehicles because it gives them things to charge and hide behind. My Lt. and lord with speed jump at them from 18 - 24" away to guarentee 2nd turn charges on even table edge hugging squades. And 5 man marine squads are going to get eaten alive by 6 attacks, 2 rerols on the attack, S5 lightning claws rerolling any failed wounds. That would be your whole squads gone each combat phase, with little that could attack back even if it did suvive to fight back.

Hordes armies like orcs, etc can be a pain too. People usually discount orc shooting, but S8 roket launchers shooting 3 times from each squad can do a number on light vehicles. plus power claws abound in armies like speed freaks and Ork warbosses claws go at S10. Also, hordes love vehicle heavy armies as it gives them extra things to charge to get closer to your main lines.

These are the kinds of situations I would consider if you decide to leave the razors and 3 preds.

Personally I would beef the squeads at least to 8 and put a fist in each, drop all of the transports and replace them with speeders. Speeders are great for destroying armor(get shots on side and rear armor), great for grabbing objectives, much more survivable than rhinos or razors and can deal out a decent amount of firepower, esp. tornados with HB and AC.

In the long run I think a devastator squad would be more useful than one or two of the preds ... and still preserve the shootyness of your army. Tanks just tend to die from one hit lucky shots (glancing 6 happens all the time). Having the squad soak up shots and at least force your enemy to kill 4 - 6 marines before they stop you from shooting is a handy thing.

Also I think every army needs at least one unit that can resopiond to CC threats. either a bike squad or an assault squad that can move quickly to where they are needed and prevent enemy fast movers from tieing up your firing lines is helpful. Often this kind of squad gets sacrificed to fforce the enemys trump unit to leave itself exposed so you can share all the shooty love your army is bursting with.

Anyway, just my humble observations on challenges and possable changes. Either way, use the list you have the most fun with, even at an RTT. Winning is nothing if you arn't having any fun.

Thanks for your comments.   Let me define "survive".  Getting shut-out is NOT surviving.  Draws & wins would constitute survival.  More than 2 losses is NOT surviving.  In a 5-game format, 1 win, 3 draws, 1 loss is surviving.  Maybe even 1 win, 2 draws, 2 losses, MAYBE!   2 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses, definitely surviving.  2 wins, 3 losses, not surviving.  Just my opinion.

I agree that speeders are a better buy than the transports.  Speeders afford more firepower, are faster, and count as scoring/objective holding units.

I agree that my list is close combat deficient and understand the wisdom in having a squad that can deal with the inevitable assault.  But I am choosing the shooty one-trick pony and I am willing to ride that pony into my opponents army with the goal of VP/objective denial.  A tactic that I feel can survive against many lists.

I understand that tanks are subject to lucky one shot hits, but squads are subject to many such "one shot" lucky hits.  Pinning, morale failure, torrent of fire, blast/ordnance/template weapons, etc.  TomAto, tomato.  PotAto, potato.

Eldar DO concern me!

I disagree that shooty IG and shooty ork hordes will dominate this list for all the obvious reasons.  The major ones being space marines superior ballistic skill, armor, and morale.  Basilisks shooting indirectly being the only exception, as my LS would be the only unit that could threaten it.  As far as speed freaks, I don't think I will see any in a GT with the new vehicle rules, and if I did, I'm pretty sure I would be the player licking my lips over the juicy, lightly armoured vehicles.

Thanks for your feedback! 

PS~ eldar will NOT eliminate ALL my vehicles in the first turn.  They all can move 6" and fire, so at the very least, they can hide behind terrain and each other round 1, ensuring that some will survive unscathed after the first turn.  It's amazing I ever won a game in past GT's. LOL 

just make sure if/when you use the vehicles that you don't blockade yourself in. I was playing chaos with 2 friends and we blockaded 3 rhinos and 2 chimeras behind 2 land raiders and a razorback. vehicle deployment has proven deadly in large scale games and tournies in my area.