Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I read a music column a number of years ago in Spin that listed "perfectly rated" bands, poking fun of music geeks joy in claiming any given band is underrated or overrated.  Seeing as we do a fair amount of that around here (Tornados are overpowered, stickbomma boyz are garbage), I thought it would be interesting to see what units people consider idealy powerful.  A few parameters:

1) how effective are they in their ideal build?  The AC/HB Speeder is lightyears better than MM/HF.  All appraisals are of the most powerful, min/maxed comibnations allowed. 

2) The role a unit plays in an army has to be taken into consideration.  A monolith is far more valuable to a Necron army than to a Nid army, and it plays a very different role in the two.

3) It's hard to tell perfectly balanced from mediocre.  I'm not trying to find the median power fo units in 40k, but merely units that accomplish what they are designed to accomplish.  For example: space marine vets are a mediocre unit, while scouts often accomplish the more limited tasks set in front of them.  Here's another way to think of it: this unit can be useful if a player takes none, some, or all that they can take, nor will it be unbalancing in a 1500-1850pts game. (barring some of the high price units, like landraiders)

A poster a week or so ago mentioned that the LRBT was perfectly balanced unit.  I forget who it was, but he was proboly right.  So, to start the list, the humble Leman Russ gets the opening nod:

1) Leman Russ Battle Tank.  Armed with three heavy bolters, and never a lascannon, the LRBT offers durability, AP3 ordanance or a fistful of dakka, and provides some much needed manueverability to the IG.  On the other want, side armor 12, no special rules, and maddening habit of ordanance to scatter ineffectively prevent it from being essential.  Seen alone, in pairs, or maxing out Heavy slots, the LRBT can also be left home and the IG can still succeed.  well, as successful as the IG ever is.  Relativly cheap at under 160 pts fully armed.

2) Scouts: how do you like yours?  4 snipers + a Missile Lancher?  I take ten with a fist.  Either way, it's a cheap troop choice, provides crucial fire support or assault punch, can infiltrate and move through cover, and can set up teleport homers for all you lysander fans out there.  Downside?  4+ save means hello to heavy bolter death.  If they're a target they're a casualty, so be careful.

3) Predator Destructor: Can't take out tanks or Meqs, but with 8 AP4 shots it'll slice through light infantry pretty well.  Dirt cheap, it's front armor 13 will stand up to most light weapons, but any dedicated anti-tank unit will eventually take it out.  The more armor or termies in your army, the better this tank becomes.  Side and rear armor as amazingly vulnerable, so they require some care.  Perhaps too cheap for this list?

4)Chaplains and Masters: These are units that I think work perfectly well in the current codex.  The librarian would be on this list, but Fear of Darkness simply destroys some armies.  Chaplains make a squad better in HtH while providing punch themselves, and Masters make the whole army fight better, as they should.  Downsides?  Keeping them cheap keeps them vulnerable, and tooling them up makes them far more expensive than they can hope win back.  Against some enemies, they can bog down in HtH readily quickly, and get overwhelmed.

5) Rough Riders: the ultimate counter charge unit.  What's not to love?  Power weapons, I5, 19"-24" charge range, enough attacks to put down about 3 or 4 marines, beyond cheap.  What's not?  They die if anything sees them, at WS3 they miss a lot, and no access to frag grenades restricts them to open field charges. 

6) Dark eldar warrior squads.  Ten men, two dark lances.  100pts.  They die easily, and their relativly low LD makes them vulnerable to psychology.  Finally, it's not like DE are struggling for anti-tank choices.  Nearly every unit could be a potential tank killer.

Those are the armies I've played/play, but I can think of a few others that I've always thought looked balanced:
Fire warriors
Kroot
Trukk Boyz
Carnifex
LR Crusader (BT)
DAemonettes
Havocs

Any thoughts?

Fire Warriors are definitely well-priced and designed. Their performance will vary (better against Guard, worse against Marines), but it balances out.

I agree with the ones you've listed.

I'll also add the Imperial Guard Infantry Squad. Whether it's just a 70 point unit of footsloggers with a special weapon to hold the objective, a 95 point firing base with Lascannon and Plasma Gun or a deep-striking unit of suicidal remnants, the Infantry Squad offers a reasonable value for the point. They're vulnerable to just about every weapon in the game, but they're cheap enough to make up for it. They're very common and useful in Guard armies, but Grenadier armies can skip them entirely and still be effective (by spending the points on a dozen or so tanks instead).


The Space Marine Whirlwind was a bit on the cheese side at 75 points and never-miss guess weaponry. Now at 85 with the worse scatter it's a pretty fair unit. The variety of different missile types makes it a pleasure to field as well. In the exact same vein, the Basilisk is a scary artillery platform at 125 points, but it's many weaknesses make up for that. With both tanks, you'll see none, some or 3 of them in various armies.

Dire Avengers! With respectable BS and an 18", Assault 2 "reach out and slice someone" range, and the fleet-of-foot to get them there, these guys are so worth their 12 pts apiece. Not only that, but add an Exarch with kit and they become an excellent "fire and forget" unit to tarpit enemies after double tapping them.

Their 4+ armor is a mixed blessing -- it means that in close (as they are wont to be) they don't fall in droves to bolter/lasgun/shoota fire, but that concentrated heavy bolters and autocannon (or Tau burst cannon) take them apart. It makes them a good tar pit in clos combat, too, since power weapons are fewer and farther between than heavy bolter equivalents.

You will see Dire Avengers -- at least a squad or two -- in all but the most extreme Eldar lists because of their balance of hitting power, speed, and durability.

Also, might I add the Sisters Squad? Shooty as hell at 12-18", tough as the (censored) they are with a 3+ save, and, with a Vet Sister and access to a Rhino and/or acts of faith, they become fearfully multi-role as well. Their balance factor is simple -- they shoot best in knife-fight range, but once the actual knife-fighting begins, they're at best mediocre. Thus, they require some care.

Finally, there is the indispensible, omnipresent Falcon. But I'm tired, so someone else should belabor the mix of gun-toting threat, invulnerable transport, and manuverable objective holding fire sponge this ancient model represents.

-Adso

I'd add Dire Avengers to the list.  They are now one of the best all rounder units in the game, but are either fragile in open or cover and expensive in a Wave Serpent.  They work best in bigger squads and can shred enemies when working in tandem with their comrades - just like an Eldar Army should.

Hormagaunts are also a pretty well balanced unit.  Their speed lets them get up close and dangerous quickly, but they can stray out of synapse range and aren't that strong.  Plus they die easily.

My two cents

[Edit] : How can you say Falcon's are balanced?  They are the most broken unit in the game?

I wouldn't consider the Falcon to be balanced.  it does three things really well: shoot, transport small squads (which eldar have plenty of), and stay alive.  It's also highly manueverable.  With no distinct draw back, I'd argue that it's the strongest unit in 40k, not the most balanced.

It would, however, join the pantheon of "money units."  Units like Falcons, Libby Terminator squads, tornados, Daemonprinces, Cannonness, Immortals, and fireknife shas'els.   Those are units that are so good, armies with them are simply better than armies without them.

The basic Kroot warrior is pretty balanced. He has a surprisingly effective weapon, and can put out a good number of attacks in CC. Plus, he is dirt cheap and can infiltrate, which is handy. The downside being that they are essentially tied to terrain, and can be templated to death without much trouble. Plus- if they break cover then, well, yeah. It's bad. The average initiative helps justify the points cost.

GW have got the points of basic infantry mostly right, though it could be argued that the bolter marine and necron should be a point or two more expensive.

Sisters of Battle. T3 in power armor with a bolter for what, 11 points? Heck yeah! Add to that acts of faith and you've got yourself butt kicking Bene Gesserite. Total steal compared to storm troopers (and even marines...). These ladies may be overpowered though...

Posted By ether dude on 05/01/2007 8:34 AM
Sisters of Battle. T3 in power armor with a bolter for what, 11 points? Heck yeah! Add to that acts of faith and you've got yourself butt kicking Bene Gesserite. Total steal compared to storm troopers (and even marines...). These ladies may be overpowered though...

Overpowered as far as points spent for for offensive power, then yes they can be. But as brother adso mentioned earlier, theat is balanced out with their mediocrity once in close range, which they have to be in order to be offensivly capable.

Sisters are priced right compared to marines, but NOT compared to Stormtroopers, which are in their own codex.

I'd say most of the units listed are, indeed, priced appropriately for what they do.

Predator Destructors get a vote from me for the reasons listed above.

I'd also vote for Warp Spiders - sure, they're expensive at 22 points a pop but with good mobility (great if you want to risk it), an assault 2 S6 gun, and that wonderful 3+ save, it is worth it. Buy exarch upgrades as appropriate and when they do get caught in close combat, they can get out.

Spinegaunt is pretty good for what it does. 5 points for a tarpit that fleets is about right.

Some of your suggestions:

Fire warriors - yes
Kroot - yes
Trukk Boyz - no, underpowered, overpriced ( they *can* work, if they're used in groups of 3 or 4)
Carnifex - no, either an overpowered shooting platform or a less-than-useless h2h bug. either way, unbalanced at its cost
LR Crusader (BT)
DAemonettes - no, tremendously overpowered - worse than genestealers and cheaper
Havocs - yes

My suggestion for a nice, balanced unit? The space marine razorback

I wish the Chimera was as cheap a (BS4!) shooting platform as a Razorback, particularly post-DA codex.

one word monolith

Gretchin?

the monolith is a bit tricky, it's only balanced because armies that can't kill it can play for a phase out. i think that makes it sort of borderline. there are some armies i feel kinda bad using it against.

Guardian Jet Bikes: 98 points for 4 bikes, 1 with a Shuriken Cannon, that can jump shoot jump similar to tau but have better movement. However if any hits are taken they are prone to fleeing off the board.

Striking Scorpions: Very good unit for counter or preemptive charge. . .

Eldar Rangers with the Parhfinder upgrade: Very well balanced with the best non vehicle shooting in the game. 36 inch range sniper rifles with incredible cover saves, and good leadership for target priority tests. Balanced by high price and a complete absence of hand to hand skill.

Swooping Hawks: Nicely balanced for horde busting, or vehicle cracking, balanced by medium armor saves, that got them shot to hell, and a high price.

Codex tactical marines, Devastators, and non-vet command sqads; simply because they can be armed with anything and always have the same effectiveness. They fulfil a number of battlefeild roles from CC to anti tank, and they do it all well, not great, not the best but well. They arent the most expensive models in the game, even when specialised, and with so many weapons and armies out to kill them they have a hard time pulling stuff out of their armoured behinds.

I've always thought that fire warriors were the essence of balance.  They really fit into the feel of the game.  Their guns will mow down orks and imperial guard, as they should, have mixed results against eldar, as they should, and bounce off of space marines, as they should.  Then add in that they have the coolest anti-tank options (in idea, not points cost), in that they call in missile support from far away rather than just giving one guy in the unit a gun that kills tanks (lame).  Units that don't follow the 'for every five models you take you get one weapon that you actually want' scheme tend to seem more balanced to me.

- Oaka

as far as effect, and no matter whats thrown in front of them they can handle it balance, i would say necron warriors.

every one of them can glance a tank, every one of them can hurt a high toughness  critter, they have 3+ save and 4t and WBB so they can at least keep a CC unit tied up for a few turns and normally come in mass so they can throw enough attacks out to handle small units of marines, or larger units of stuff with out saves.  Also they have a str4  ap5  24inch rapid fire gun .

At 18 points each that aren't cheap , but not to expensive as to make them come in small numbers. ( though even at 20 points each i think they would still be a fair buy)

As much as I love my eldar, having some of the best shooting in the game kinda prohibits Ranger Pathfinders from being balanced right?

No, not if the points are right.

Being good at something doesn't automatically make you unbalanced.

I'm with Asmodai on this one, the point of balance is... well... ballance. Anything that's bad can be balanced out by just being cheep (gretchen, ig troopers, etc). Anything that's good can be balanced by being expensive (eldar pathfinders, chaos obliterators, terminators, etc). The point trying to be made here is what units are priced appropreatly for their abilities.

I for one am fond of the space marine dreadnaught. It has some solid power but not so much that it's over the top. It has pleanty of options (most of which are viable) and it all comes at a reasonable price. Take none, take one, take3, or take 6 it all works and doesn't get into the realm of cheese.

The reason it would be a tad imbalanced IMHO would be the costing of options. Is the twin-linked lascannon really that much better then the AC? What about the Multi-melta being 10 more points then the AC? Is venerable really that fairly costed when one would use it on all dreads if they could? Not saying I think dreads are super imbalanced but I also wouldn't put them in the 'most 'balanced category. And to say taking 6 dreads isn't in the realm of cheese is kinda funny (doubt your soft scores will reflect it being uncheesy).

Posted By winterman on 05/07/2007 1:54 PM
And to say taking 6 dreads isn't in the realm of cheese is kinda funny (doubt your soft scores will reflect it being uncheesy).

Considering I went 30 for 30 in sportsmanship at the Games Day Atlanta tourney with a 6 Venerable Dread army, it's by no means guaranteed that your scores will get tanked.

Was that this year or the previous 'fiasco' year?

And thats cool that people didn't freak out and tank your sportsmanship (since lists should have no bearing on sportsmanship unless its illegal). But there was also no comp at the GD, correct? Wouldn't surprise me to see such a list do ok in sports at that type of event, as people expect the worst.

In any event, there's always an element of luck to who you face at a tournament, whether it be the armies you have to deal with or the personalities determining your softscores.

This year. And I acknowledge that the vagarities of your matches determines a lot of it, but the fact that it occured at all (especially after last year) means it's possible to soft-score well even with the dreaded Dreads.

Who cares if you see six dreads anyway? I mean, venerable or not, I don't think any army would have more of a trouble with six dreads than it would with three falcons (or, say, five 'fexen). AV12, rerolling damage nonetheless, is not ludicrously hard to crack. I mean, it's effective, but there are at least a dozen builds that I would be less sanguine about my chances against them.

Posted By Mitsugi242 on 05/11/2007 10:07 PM
Who cares if you see six dreads anyway? I mean, venerable or not, I don't think any army would have more of a trouble with six dreads than it would with three falcons (or, say, five 'fexen). AV12, rerolling damage nonetheless, is not ludicrously hard to crack. I mean, it's effective, but there are at least a dozen builds that I would be less sanguine about my chances against them.

Exactly.  Re-rollable or not, AV12 non-skimmer means you're scoring some penetrating hits, and those hurt.  While there's only a 25% chance of destorying it with a Pen, you have over 2/3 chance of doing some permanent damage.

For a basic soldier I would say that the Space Marine Tactical Squad and Tau Fire Warrior team are well balanced for cost, fire power and possible upgrades.

For a vehicle I would say the Space Marine Dreadnought is a fantastically Balanced unit IMHO. It can cost the same as a tank, is mobile, very durable and can be equipped with a variety of weapons whilst still maintaining a balanced cost and strength.