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 Aaranis wrote:
When I face IG the probem aren't killing infantry I've found, it's the Leman Russes who always wreck me. Tank Commanders specifically. I'm surprised not many people don't call on this but getting to shoot twice if you move half-speed (with Battle Cannons being 72" that shouldn't be too hard) while popping orders to get -1 to Hit on you and still fire for example. And if I try to destroy the thing it's T8 with 12W.

Well. People are preparing for 1 shotting knights which means they have firepower to take out 3 leman russ. Not much need to complain when you can remove 3+ of them per turn.

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
When I face IG the probem aren't killing infantry I've found, it's the Leman Russes who always wreck me. Tank Commanders specifically. I'm surprised not many people don't call on this but getting to shoot twice if you move half-speed (with Battle Cannons being 72" that shouldn't be too hard) while popping orders to get -1 to Hit on you and still fire for example. And if I try to destroy the thing it's T8 with 12W.

Well. People are preparing for 1 shotting knights which means they have firepower to take out 3 leman russ. Not much need to complain when you can remove 3+ of them per turn.

Agreed. As much as Leman Russes might like a problem on paper, they are not as difficult to deal with as Knights. Killing one out of 2 russes is much better than half killing a Knight. Not to mention that Knights have Invulns.

Knights are a thing you need a plan for these days, as they are a valid army. If you have a plan for Knights you are already in a good place to face Russes.

Leman Russes are not competitive. This is not an issue. Also, IG hordes are not competitive. This is not an issue.

As far as IG goes, hellhounds are where it's at.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Also...buffing a few armies doesn't keep one army "in check." It just buffs those chosen armies.

The only way to keep IG in check is to weaken IG, or strengthen all other armies, not just a few.

Not true. Increasing the tools that other armies have to counter IG is a check on IG. A lot of the current problem with IG is the massive lack of effective anti hoard weapons in 8th. If we had the efficiency of anti hoard weapons from, say, 5th edition, then guardsmen would just get easily wiped by everyone, and IG would be checked.

Not when they are the most efficient horde army. Every other horde army would get worse because you've just introduced a load of anti horde tools and IG would still be the 'best' horde army, even if their power relative to 'Elite' armies dropped.

You don't nerf Nids because IG hordes are over performing.

But why are they the most efficient horde army? Being ranged helps, but there are other ranged 4ppm models that aren't nearly as effective. Most 4ppm models have a 6+ save while guardsmen have a 5+. In previous editions, when almost every anti-infantry gun worth its salt was AP5, this didn't matter. Both saves got ignored most of the time and sometimes guardsmen could get armor saves when others couldn't. 8th edition hits, and suddenly guardsmen get their save more often than not so 5+ vs 6+ matters much more. Bringing back AP5 would solve that.

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
When I face IG the probem aren't killing infantry I've found, it's the Leman Russes who always wreck me. Tank Commanders specifically. I'm surprised not many people don't call on this but getting to shoot twice if you move half-speed (with Battle Cannons being 72" that shouldn't be too hard) while popping orders to get -1 to Hit on you and still fire for example. And if I try to destroy the thing it's T8 with 12W.

Well. People are preparing for 1 shotting knights which means they have firepower to take out 3 leman russ. Not much need to complain when you can remove 3+ of them per turn.

Agreed. As much as Leman Russes might like a problem on paper, they are not as difficult to deal with as Knights. Killing one out of 2 russes is much better than half killing a Knight. Not to mention that Knights have Invulns.

Knights are a thing you need a plan for these days, as they are a valid army. If you have a plan for Knights you are already in a good place to face Russes.

Well luckily Knights took a partial hit with the CP generation nerf. We just have to hope it sticks.

That and they get a slight points bump.

I'm also hoping for more Renegade Knights relics/strats. Possibly even warlord traits.

 chimeara wrote:
I'm also hoping for more Renegade Knights relics/strats. Possibly even warlord traits.

Chaos/Renegade Knights need to be handled in the Knight codex via replacing keywords and stuff. That's my issue with supposed Renegade Marines too.

Spoletta wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

The Newman wrote:
If we could take as given that the existing Marine spoilers are accurate (10% to 20% point drop, equipment dropping to Guard prices)

There are only a few weapons costed in the IG book for SM BS, so that shouldn't be much of a drop.

If you think that's what I'm talking about then you haven't been paying attention.

The spoiler was for twin-linked Lascannons dropping to 40 points for Marines, BS 4 Guard pay 40 for a twin-linked Lascannon. The logical speculation is that all marine gear is getting the same treatment, and I think most of us are hoping that's the case because the spoiler said Marine players will be happy with the Terminator changes but the listed 3 point drop on a Terminator isn't nearly enough to accomplish that.

Or twin lascannons in general are getting cheaper and the guard one is going to 35. I think that those that expect the SM weapons to go to BS4+ cost levels are in for a big disappointment.

I don't think it's an expectation so much as speculating on what the current spoilers might mean if they're true. Which they might well not be.

 chimeara wrote:
I'm also hoping for more Renegade Knights relics/strats. Possibly even warlord traits.

I would like this.

I do think that the game would be better if Resurgent Machine spirit was renamed and moved to a general strategy in the rulebook that everyone can use. Another with some others.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. Easiest way to patch SM and get them back on the table. Give them all this:

Special Rule: Astartes Legionnaire
The Space Marines, and their wargear, are super human in both scale and effectiveness.

All models with this rule gain +1 Attack and +1 wound. Any weapons used by models with this rules that is AP 0 or AP -1 gains an additional point of AP.

Oh, yet another genius has reinvented the Primaris Marines!

Yep. I don't think that some people have figured out that all bolter weapons left AP off ON PURPOSE to make room for Bolt Rifles for Primaris.

A better arguement would be... Why can't my normal marines have Bolt Rifles?

Reemule wrote:
Yep. I don't think that some people have figured out that all bolter weapons left AP off ON PURPOSE to make room for Bolt Rifles for Primaris.

A better arguement would be... Why can't my normal marines have Bolt Rifles?

Because Cawl is a drama queen

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. Easiest way to patch SM and get them back on the table. Give them all this:

Special Rule: Astartes Legionnaire
The Space Marines, and their wargear, are super human in both scale and effectiveness.

All models with this rule gain +1 Attack and +1 wound. Any weapons used by models with this rules that is AP 0 or AP -1 gains an additional point of AP.

Oh, yet another genius has reinvented the Primaris Marines!

That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

Reemule wrote:
Yep. I don't think that some people have figured out that all bolter weapons left AP off ON PURPOSE to make room for Bolt Rifles for Primaris.

A better arguement would be... Why can't my normal marines have Bolt Rifles?

More importantly why don't my Intercessors have Heavy Bolt Pistols?

I mean... Primaris are the control.
"What if we gave Marines another wound, and another attack, and 6" extra range 1 point of AP on their guns - and then made them 18 points"

"Turns out they suck. Possibly even more than tactical marines."

Call me if Primaris are 13 points. Really not seeing how making them 17 is going to change anything - although in a world where all the offenders get nerfed it might.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

Well, to be fair, GW didn't actually give them that. They invented a whole new unit for you to go out a buy, while still having rules for the older models.
What they SHOULD have done, is give the Primaris statline to the existing Marines (with all the wargear that comes with them). If they then also wanted to add new models, they could have, but make it a new mark of armour, rather than a whole new legion on models.

But that didn't happen, so we are left in this weird limbo in which Primaris will continue to be too expensive and regular Marines will never have the statline they deserve.
It could have been so much simpler to just combine the properties of both for the ideal outcome: Primaris statline, with regular Marine points and wargear options

-

 Galef wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

Well, to be fair, GW didn't actually give them that. They invented a whole new unit for you to go out a buy, while still having rules for the older models.
What they SHOULD have done, is give the Primaris statline to the existing Marines (with all the wargear that comes with them). If they then also wanted to add new models, they could have, but make it a new mark of armour, rather than a whole new legion on models.

But that didn't happen, so we are left in this weird limbo in which Primaris will continue to be too expensive and regular Marines will never have the statline they deserve.
It could have been so much simpler to just combine the properties of both for the ideal outcome: Primaris statline, with regular Marine points and wargear options

-

Imagine the complaining if they'd done this!

Someone had the suggestion of giving Marines the Primaris stat line and then Primaris gain an additional attack and wound after that.

Can't say I was a fan of that idea.

The main point is that Marines are fine with 1 wound and 1 attack. However, they overpay for their S4 and WS3+, and always have. If you want more melee oriented, you got other Marine armies for that. Then you have the issue they overpay as well. That's all on top of being priced as a shooting army with little special weapon saturation and a bad basic weapon.

CassianSol wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

Well, to be fair, GW didn't actually give them that. They invented a whole new unit for you to go out a buy, while still having rules for the older models.
What they SHOULD have done, is give the Primaris statline to the existing Marines (with all the wargear that comes with them). If they then also wanted to add new models, they could have, but make it a new mark of armour, rather than a whole new legion on models.

But that didn't happen, so we are left in this weird limbo in which Primaris will continue to be too expensive and regular Marines will never have the statline they deserve.
It could have been so much simpler to just combine the properties of both for the ideal outcome: Primaris statline, with regular Marine points and wargear options

-

Imagine the complaining if they'd done this!

You are kidding right? You think people would complain if they could use tacticals for the first time in like 4 editions? Get real man. There would be complaints - but not from marine players.

CassianSol wrote:
Imagine the complaining if they'd done this!

13pt 2-wound models that each carry a free Heavy Bolter Lite? Yeah I'd complain, mostly about having to paint 150 of them, but also about the assault app not being on android.

Can't be too mad at fielding an unbeatable army for under $300 though.

PuppetSoul wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Imagine the complaining if they'd done this!

13pt 2-wound models that each carry a free Heavy Bolter Lite? Yeah I'd complain, mostly about having to paint 150 of them, but also about the assault app not being on android.

Can't be too mad at fielding an unbeatable army for under $300 though.

I never said that Tacs should also get Bolt Rifles, just the 2W/2A. Maybe at around 15ppm.
This is, of course, if Primaris never existed. But they do, so that boat has left the station.

-

PuppetSoul wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Imagine the complaining if they'd done this!

13pt 2-wound models that each carry a free Heavy Bolter Lite? Yeah I'd complain, mostly about having to paint 150 of them, but also about the assault app not being on android.

Can't be too mad at fielding an unbeatable army for under $300 though.

That would be slightly undercosted for a primaris marine. 15 is about where they should be.

If standard marines were bumped up to Primaris level than I'd make Primaris S5 T5 and call it a day. Oh and the bolt rile would be S5

2W, 2A marines work when you don't consider the special snowflake chapters that would instantly become overpowered.

Deathwatch would become ridiculous. Their special ammo is bonkersville good.

Blood Angels would also become ridiculous.

In short, the worst get better, but the best get great. That's kind of the problem with some of their overpowered stuff. The deathwatch special ammo is broken, if marines become functional. I don't see how if marines infantry suddenly became great, every list wouldn't essentially be deathwatch, or maybe BA.

 Marmatag wrote:
2W, 2A marines work when you don't consider the special snowflake chapters that would instantly become overpowered.

Deathwatch would become ridiculous. Their special ammo is bonkersville good.

Blood Angels would also become ridiculous.

In short, the worst get better, but the best get great. That's kind of the problem with some of their overpowered stuff. The deathwatch special ammo is broken, if marines become functional. I don't see how if marines infantry suddenly became great, every list wouldn't essentially be deathwatch, or maybe BA.

Exactly this, DW Primaris marines are so much better than their counterpart for measly 2 points that having such a model for 15 pts would be broken as feth and force the meta to as many D2 weapons as possible

 Marmatag wrote:
2W, 2A marines work when you don't consider the special snowflake chapters that would instantly become overpowered.

Deathwatch would become ridiculous. Their special ammo is bonkersville good.

Blood Angels would also become ridiculous.

In short, the worst get better, but the best get great. That's kind of the problem with some of their overpowered stuff. The deathwatch special ammo is broken, if marines become functional. I don't see how if marines infantry suddenly became great, every list wouldn't essentially be deathwatch, or maybe BA.

Yeah - it's been discussed to death at this point. The only thing left to do is reduce point cost for vanilla units and keep DW the same price. However - space marine veterans should basically just get the DW ammo and pay what DW pay without getting the DW mission tactics, gear, and stuff.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
2W, 2A marines work when you don't consider the special snowflake chapters that would instantly become overpowered.

Deathwatch would become ridiculous. Their special ammo is bonkersville good.

Blood Angels would also become ridiculous.

In short, the worst get better, but the best get great. That's kind of the problem with some of their overpowered stuff. The deathwatch special ammo is broken, if marines become functional. I don't see how if marines infantry suddenly became great, every list wouldn't essentially be deathwatch, or maybe BA.

Yeah - it's been discussed to death at this point. The only thing left to do is reduce point cost for vanilla units and keep DW the same price. However - space marine veterans should basically just get the DW ammo and pay what DW pay without getting the DW mission tactics, gear, and stuff.

Why should Deathwatch pay for Mission Tactics? That's their Chapter Tactic equivalent.

The best thing they could do would be to just break from the notion that every marine is equal.

There is no reason that a BA marine with 2W, 2A should be the same price as a Codex marine with 2W, 2A.

The baseline cost for BA / SW could be 16 points, whereas codex marines could be 13 points. This way everyone gets 2W, 2A, but they pay more fair pricing.

Just as an example, not saying that those point values are accurate or fair in this example. The problem is primaris marines kill this. They were a horrible decision really for marines as a whole.

“BA would be ridiculous”. Maybe in a meta where melee dominates. That isn’t 8th though. +1 to wound in a round of combat is somehow worth 3 points, while fall back and shoot is worth 0, -1 to hit (or auto cover or whatever it becomes) is worth 0. Lol, ok. Maybe Ultras should pay +3 points per marine because they can take Guilliman. That’s how “paying for potential” works, according to people like Porcupine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
2W, 2A marines work when you don't consider the special snowflake chapters that would instantly become overpowered.

Deathwatch would become ridiculous. Their special ammo is bonkersville good.

Blood Angels would also become ridiculous.

In short, the worst get better, but the best get great. That's kind of the problem with some of their overpowered stuff. The deathwatch special ammo is broken, if marines become functional. I don't see how if marines infantry suddenly became great, every list wouldn't essentially be deathwatch, or maybe BA.

Yeah - it's been discussed to death at this point. The only thing left to do is reduce point cost for vanilla units and keep DW the same price. However - space marine veterans should basically just get the DW ammo and pay what DW pay without getting the DW mission tactics, gear, and stuff.

Why should Deathwatch pay for Mission Tactics? That's their Chapter Tactic equivalent.

Oh I said The SM vets should basically be DW Vets - for the same cost - but DW gets their mission tactics and a SM vets gets their chapter tactics. The discrepancy in veteran efficiency is nonsensical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
The best thing they could do would be to just break from the notion that every marine is equal.

There is no reason that a BA marine with 2W, 2A should be the same price as a Codex marine with 2W, 2A.

The baseline cost for BA / SW could be 16 points, whereas codex marines could be 13 points. This way everyone gets 2W, 2A, but they pay more fair pricing.

Just as an example, not saying that those point values are accurate or fair in this example. The problem is primaris marines kill this. They were a horrible decision really for marines as a whole.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be MORE powerful than 4 point infantry with str 4 and 3 attacks each...seriously. Those are currently in the game right now and dominate but they are clearly better than 15 point marines with 2 attacks or 3 attacks with pedro or +1 to wound for BA or hits on 2+ with SW.