Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The issue with pods seems to be hordes. Essentially a horde unit can spread itself over a load of objectives, charge the pod, and stay locked in combat un-shootable for the whole game, confident that it and the pod will never kill each other.

It's not even just hordes who can do this. I can see myself doing the same thing with a squad of intercessors. One guy fights the pod and the other 4 snake back to an objective. Happy days.

That makes some assumptions that I don't necessarily agree with. Again this is all theory hammer like this but in my games this happened once. 10 intercessors thought they were safe fighting a drop pod and holding an objective. Then 5 vanguard vets got close and that was that, the intercessors couldn't fire overwatch or move back and shoot so they were sitting ducks for me to get in and kill. So theory wise thata true but gameplay can determine if it's actually a safe option or not.

Imperial fist gun battery with 3 thunderfire canons and 9 quad rappier heavy bolters is probably the best troll list in the game.

With space marines you can only take 3 rapier they come one by one in chaos you can have them in group of 3.

Chaos rapiers are broken Nerf them!

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.

I think Iron Hand Storm Hawks are a sleeper hit. It's already incredibly hard to deal with the executioner castle. How much worse is it with three fighter planes zooming around?

Middle of Nowhere GT in literal middle of nowhere Manitoba saw a pretty solid Iron Hands list make it 2nd with triple Stormhawks and triple Repulsor Executioners, so I think you're absolutely right here.

and the only reason he got second was he forgot to move his flyers at one point and they all crashed. IH flyers seem to be the real threat, sorry dreads

The executioner increase finally makes sense with all the supplements now.

 buddha wrote:
The executioner increase finally makes sense with all the supplements now.

yeah the iron hands, ultramarines and imperial fists supplements all synergize VERY nicely with it

I've been thinking about weapons that might get a new lease of life with the IF super doctrine and Heavy Plasma incinerators seem like an immediate candidate.

S8 -5AP and 2D base against vehicles means that it can do lots of work against many smaller vehicles and become S9 D3 when supercharged means it will reliably do damage to Leman Russ tanks and can be more reliable than any D6 weapon.

Accelerator Auto cannon became the premium light vehicle hunter and the Eliminators got more utility also. The Invictus tactical warsuit became both anti infantry and anti light tank with its weapons.

Any other sub par weapons you feel will get a much needed boost from the IF doctrine?

While bad weapons got better good weapons got even better.

Klickor wrote:
While bad weapons got better good weapons got even better.

Exactly this. Heavy incinerators become sort of almost ok, against vehicles. Kind of like a las fusil eliminator except with no camo cloak and a chance to blow himself up. So like a worse version of a unit that already isn’t very good.

Suppressors are a unit that seriously benefits from the Fists buff. They have a good chance to wound, two shots, and they’re surprisingly cheap.

Benefitting from the extra damage means wounding many times, to get that +1 often. So heavy bolters might not be great, because they plink off, and lascannons might not be, because they only get one shot. I think the best guns will be those with around S8 and plenty of shots. That’s why I think the Deredeo’s anvillus array has pretty much the perfect profile.

Suppressors being stuck in units of three averaging one shot landed when moving kinda hurts their use though.

I think Las Fusil Eliminators with a Sergeant using Guided Aim will be quite good for Imperial Fists. Hitting on 2s, Str 8 with +1 to Wound, AP-4, 4 damage is pretty decent.

Against T6-T8 4++ an IF Heavy Bolter is equally as effective as a non IF lascannon while costing 40% of the lascannon. Both average ~0,8 wounds. Against 2+/3+ without an Invul the lascannon is a bit better but not more than twice as good so for IF you should just load up on those cheap str 5+ ap1+ weapons and preferably bolter versions for exploding 6s.

3 TFC(1 shooting twice) and 3 sniper eliminator squads deal enough damage to kill a Tank Commander in 1 turn and with character support they even do an average of 20 to a 4++ knight. Thats from 500pts of anti infantry and anti character units shooting at t8 tanks. IF should probably not take any dedicated anti tank weapons or units since that would just be overkill when their normal units already do anti tank duty better than most armies dedicated anti tank.

A 4man heavy bolter devastator squad costs 60pts less than a lascannon squad while doing the same against tanks and better against infantry. You get 3 HB squads for less than 2 LC squads.

5-15 scouts, 15-25 intercessors with the heavy version of the bolt rifle. 3 TFCs, 3 eliminators and 3 HB devastators sounds like a good base. A smash captain, a support captain, a LT and a Librarian/Chaplain for buffs. Enough dakka to wipe hordes and will even move down any tanks as well. Heavy bolters dont discriminate. That fire base without any character buffs deals about 45 damage against T8 3+ despite not a single anti tank unit...

Klickor wrote:
Against T6-T8 4++ an IF Heavy Bolter is equally as effective as a non IF lascannon while costing 40% of the lascannon. Both average ~0,8 wounds. Against 2+/3+ without an Invul the lascannon is a bit better but not more than twice as good so for IF you should just load up on those cheap str 5+ ap1+ weapons and preferably bolter versions for exploding 6s.

3 TFC(1 shooting twice) and 3 sniper eliminator squads deal enough damage to kill a Tank Commander in 1 turn and with character support they even do an average of 20 to a 4++ knight. Thats from 500pts of anti infantry and anti character units shooting at t8 tanks. IF should probably not take any dedicated anti tank weapons or units since that would just be overkill when their normal units already do anti tank duty better than most armies dedicated anti tank.

A 4man heavy bolter devastator squad costs 60pts less than a lascannon squad while doing the same against tanks and better against infantry. You get 3 HB squads for less than 2 LC squads.

5-15 scouts, 15-25 intercessors with the heavy version of the bolt rifle. 3 TFCs, 3 eliminators and 3 HB devastators sounds like a good base. A smash captain, a support captain, a LT and a Librarian/Chaplain for buffs. Enough dakka to wipe hordes and will even move down any tanks as well. Heavy bolters dont discriminate. That fire base without any character buffs deals about 45 damage against T8 3+ despite not a single anti tank unit...

This is why I'm going bolter crazy with my lists lately.

Great analysis Klickor, thanks. It feels completely wrong to me, however. I don't like it. And my main army is IFs.

I did a load of sums looking at different options to benefit from the Fists doctrine. Deredeos gain a lot. The Anvillus is a very consistent damage-dealer against pretty much any target in the game.

Heavy bolters are great but they need 5s to wound vehicles and that’s very swingy. The S8 on deredeos makes them way more consistent, especially with a lieutenant nearby.

There are fairly few comparable guns really. Suppressors look very effective though. You’d rather have S8 ap-1 than S7 ap-2 though.

I dont agree with HB being swingy compared to other shooting options. 1-2 str 8 shots wounding on 4+ and 3,5 str5 shots wounding on 5+ isnt very different. Especially when you consider how cheap the str 5 stuff is and how many of them you can have.

Lascannons are even more swingy even if they wound on 3s. That d6 damage roll vs D2 makes them swingier than Heavy Bolters. With the amount of invul saves and random damage on most anti tank shooting there really isnt any good non swingy options.

Everything shooty is super swingy compared to smash captains/assault centurions/libby dreads that can hit on 2s/3s with rerolls and can wound T8 on 2s or 3s with ap3-4 and flat damage 3 or 4. No shooting weapon is close to that but at least the Heavy Bolters make up for it in number of shots.

Having a heavy bolter deal 6 damage to a vehicle is very unlikely but not much more than a lascannon dealing 6. It is however more likely in dealing any damage than the lascannon on a knight.

Right but I wasn’t talking about lascannons, as you know. The example I gave was a deredeo dread. 8 shots at S8 with BS2+ and flat 2 (or 3 as fists) damage.

That thing wounds most targets on a 3, typically with a lieutenant reroll. If it stands still it can hit even planes on a 2+. You might roll a lot of 2s to wound but that would be unusual.

Once you get a really large number of heavy bolters they do get more consistent. But they aren’t necessarily the most efficient guns against vehicles, especially once you factor in the cost of whatever they are stuck onto. And of course IH laugh them off.

Alright, so I figured I would make a post with two lists I'm doing...eh with, with most of the "eh" coming from the first list of course. My stubborn nature hasn't helped much either of course.

So the first list is pretty obvious with the combination of shooting and chopping. It mostly relies on the deployment of the Intercessors and Centurions to deal with screening, and then a Beta Strike by T2 with Lias and crew, having switched to Tactical Doctrine by that point of course. While I wouldn't get the bonus of hurting characters, I don't find I've necessarily needed it outside the couple of times I REALLY wanted to hurt some Knights. The main problems with the list, of course, are skewed vehicle lists and of course the very low CP generated. It REALLY is not a lot once I've handed out Relics and such. I figured I'd lose the suicide Chaplain to put in a Librarian which could theoretically protect the Centurions or make them charge even quicker with Asterion.

Now onto the second list, this one with a MUCH higher win rate:

This is the camping list trying to win on objectives and plinking away at the opponent. Now, I will grant I probably have some more nonsensical decisions in there for the Scouts, and the reason is that a poorer player will act irrationally trying to kill them, seeing as they're Raven Guard. The ML might entice some Knight players into wanting to knock out the squad. From there, I simply rely on the Sentry Guns for more of the spacing, TFCs to kill hordes, and Lias and Co. strike down for a nice finish, with them still getting potshots even if they die (and everyone but Lias will).

 buddha wrote:
The executioner increase finally makes sense with all the supplements now.

Only worth their cost as Ironhands and only because of busted relics and a cheap 5++ bubble and a nice 6+++ FNP. It is a 280 point tank at best for anyone else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alright, so I figured I would make a post with two lists I'm doing...eh with, with most of the "eh" coming from the first list of course. My stubborn nature hasn't helped much either of course.

Spoiler:

BATTALION - Minotaurs (White Scars Successor)
HQ:
x1 Asterion Moloc
x1 Chaplain w/ Jump Pack

TROOPS:
x5 Intercessors w/ Assault Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher
x5 Intercessors w/ Assault Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher
x5 Intercessors w/ Assault Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher

ELITES:
x4 Assault Centurions w/ Hurricane Bolters, Flamers
x4 Assault Centurions w/ Hurricane Bolters, Flamers
x1 Apothecary

VANGUARD DETACHMENT - Raptors (Raven Guard Successors w/ Stealthy, Long Range Marksmen)
HQ:
x1 Lias Issodon

TROOPS:
x5 Scouts w/ Shotguns
x5 Scouts w/ Shotguns

ELITES:
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor

So the first list is pretty obvious with the combination of shooting and chopping. It mostly relies on the deployment of the Intercessors and Centurions to deal with screening, and then a Beta Strike by T2 with Lias and crew, having switched to Tactical Doctrine by that point of course. While I wouldn't get the bonus of hurting characters, I don't find I've necessarily needed it outside the couple of times I REALLY wanted to hurt some Knights. The main problems with the list, of course, are skewed vehicle lists and of course the very low CP generated. It REALLY is not a lot once I've handed out Relics and such. I figured I'd lose the suicide Chaplain to put in a Librarian which could theoretically protect the Centurions or make them charge even quicker with Asterion.

Now onto the second list, this one with a MUCH higher win rate:

Spoiler:

BATTALION - Raptors (Raven Guard Successor w/ Stealthy, Long Range Marksmen)
HQ:
x1 Lias Issodon
x1 Terminator Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield
x1 Biker Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Chainsword

TROOPS:
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalkers
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalkers
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalkers
x6 Scouts w/ 5 Sniper Rifles, ML
x6 Scouts w/ 5 Sniper Rifles, ML
x6 Scouts w/ 5 Sniper Rifles, ML

FAST ATTACK:
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun w/ Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun w/ Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun w/ Twin Heavy Bolter

ELITES:
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor

HEAVY SUPPORT:
x1 Thunderfire Cannon
x1 Thunderfire Cannon
x1 Thunderfire Cannon

This is the camping list trying to win on objectives and plinking away at the opponent. Now, I will grant I probably have some more nonsensical decisions in there for the Scouts, and the reason is that a poorer player will act irrationally trying to kill them, seeing as they're Raven Guard. The ML might entice some Knight players into wanting to knock out the squad. From there, I simply rely on the Sentry Guns for more of the spacing, TFCs to kill hordes, and Lias and Co. strike down for a nice finish, with them still getting potshots even if they die (and everyone but Lias will).

I like the style of that second list the most. Might I suggest swapping the Tarantulas for Attack bikes? They're identical in costs and defensive stats. Stationary they're more accurate and can target whatever they want, and on the move they bring more dakka at the same accuracy as the sentry guns. Might give some more mobility so you aren't so in need of stationary screening placement.

My issue with Attack Bikes is the Heavy Bolter being such a dinky weapon on the move for them. You get 1.5 shots on average, which is sometimes 1 shot a turn! The TL Bolter can help make up for it but not by a lot.

The neat thing with the Taratulas is that they're averaging 3 hits a turn, and can't be tied up. You'd be often surprised when even Vet players try to charge them and fail to kill it, and then it spits out more shots again.

Minor thing, but you have it listed as a Battalion and organized like a Brigade. I'm not experienced enough with marines to know whether your Grav Sternguard Vets are enough of a hammer to make the list work. It looks light to me, especially on anti-vehicle.

What do you gain from the Long-Range Marksmen? I like it for flamers and grenades, but I'm not seeing the units in your list that would benefit.

bmsattler wrote:
Minor thing, but you have it listed as a Battalion and organized like a Brigade. I'm not experienced enough with marines to know whether your Grav Sternguard Vets are enough of a hammer to make the list work. It looks light to me, especially on anti-vehicle.

What do you gain from the Long-Range Marksmen? I like it for flamers and grenades, but I'm not seeing the units in your list that would benefit.

Flexible deployment is key. We all know we've had moments when we say to ourselves we needed those couple of extra inches to make a charge or get into Rapid Fire. Long Range Marksmen capitalizes on that need we ALL have. When it comes to grenades, Sternguard will lob them for sure, but the main point is making deployment much easier for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you're right. I'll fix the wording real quick for the Brigade.

So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.

bmsattler wrote:
So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.

The flying circus lists won't be too bothered and the rest will have phobos captain and infiltrators. to solve that issue.

How will flying circus lists avoid the boots on the ground disqualification? That is typically how Genestealers deal with flyer-heavy lists I believe.

GSC list often smite/psychic power down planes along with forcing them to crash.

IH can nullify that power on a 4+ and half the planes can hover so that tactic is out as well.

I've seen GSC lists shoot planes out of the air (mining lazors in Nick's GSC), demo charge them, hand flamer them or just ignore them and dare them to kill 90 GSC bodies.

GSC has a tough time charging enough of the repulsors to kill them (if they don't die the GSC are screwed). Also the GSC need targets to wrap in order to not get shot to death, with flying tanks screening everything there is no wrapping.

I think GSC can still deal with the list but the flyers screening out throws a major wrench in the GSC players plans. Unless they can find targets to wrap it's like shooting fish in a barrel with all those anti-infantry guns on the executioners/planes...

I don't know. I was supposed to be going to a rather large tournament in December but I'm not looking forward to either painting up an IH army list or designing a list built to only beat IH and losing to every non-mech list I fight. Games not in a good place to me at the moment.

bmsattler wrote:
So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.

5+ overwatch with full re-rolls. 4+ if needed. Omni-scramblers pushing back deepstrike and fly to move out of combat and shoot more.

The key is in having enough shots to deal with things as they come down without diluting your other matchups to much.