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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If they do, I hope it's by upping the numbers of everything. I've always hated the fact that the Legions, which are supposed to be completely autonomous and capable of conquering entire systems, are barely a fraction the size of modern day militaries.

I mean, the largest legion is the Ultramarines, who clock in at 250,000 men, whereas the US military alone has 3 million. "40K sucks at scale" doesn't even begin to express the problem with those figures. lol

They're super soldiers wearing armour that turns them into walking tanks. They don't need millions of members to conquer entire systems.

How does them being super soldiers wearing power armor make them suddenly able to overcome armies that outnumber them a thousand to one and are often armed with weaponry and equipment that rival the Imperium's?

You'd have a valid point if the fluff didn't show that the legions routinely suffered massive casualties throughout their compliances during the Crusade, but it does. Thus it'd be to their advantage to do something as simple as... bolster their numbers. They certainly have the capability.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You want a direct 40K equivalent to modern day militaries? Try the Imperial Army/Guard.

A) The Imperial Guard are not a direct equivalent to modern day militaries- the tactics they employ have been outdated for decades. B) The legions numbering in the millions instead of thousands wouldn't suddenly make them Guardsmen.

And for the record, yes I'm aware that 40K runs on rule-of-cool.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


And for the record, yes I'm aware that 40K runs on rule-of-cool.

So, why are you worried about it all then, and "have always hated the fact" etc?

Just put it down to "rule of cool", like Jedi intercepting laser-beams with laser-swords, and enjoy!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How does them being super soldiers wearing power armor make them suddenly able to overcome armies that outnumber them a thousand to one and are often armed with weaponry and equipment that rival the Imperium's?

Not even that. How does being super soldiers wearing power armour suddenly make them capable of covering the vast expanse of the known galaxy?

There need to be lots of Marines during the Crusade/Heresy otherwise the Crusade/Heresy would not have functioned!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How does them being super soldiers wearing power armor make them suddenly able to overcome armies that outnumber them a thousand to one and are often armed with weaponry and equipment that rival the Imperium's?

Not even that. How does being super soldiers wearing power armour suddenly make them capable of covering the vast expanse of the known galaxy?

There need to be lots of Marines during the Crusade/Heresy otherwise the Crusade/Heresy would not have functioned!

IIRC, the Crusade was split into a number of task forces, who proceeded one system/planet at a time. Marines were the spearhead and they were supported by a large number of Imperial Army. The enemies they faced weren't always that strong or technologically quite up to the challenge, either. And so on

I'm thinking the one thing that could have given the Crusade a significant advantage would be the naval abilities. It's probably not too far fetched to think that most systems didn't have a standing navy that could answer to the Crusade Fleet. After gaining orbital superiority, they could use that well to their advantage to strike against strategic locations, and that was where the Marines were at their best.

 prowla wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How does them being super soldiers wearing power armor make them suddenly able to overcome armies that outnumber them a thousand to one and are often armed with weaponry and equipment that rival the Imperium's?

Not even that. How does being super soldiers wearing power armour suddenly make them capable of covering the vast expanse of the known galaxy?

There need to be lots of Marines during the Crusade/Heresy otherwise the Crusade/Heresy would not have functioned!

IIRC, the Crusade was split into a number of task forces, who proceeded one system/planet at a time. Marines were the spearhead and they were supported by a large number of Imperial Army. The enemies they faced weren't always that strong or technologically quite up to the challenge, either. And so on

I'm thinking the one thing that could have given the Crusade a significant advantage would be the naval abilities. It's probably not too far fetched to think that most systems didn't have a standing navy that could answer to the Crusade Fleet. After gaining orbital superiority, they could use that well to their advantage to strike against strategic locations, and that was where the Marines were at their best.

That's what I recall as well. How marines should have always been really, instead of the perceived idea that marines can solo anything without support.

Astartes and the Solar Auxiliaries spearhead assaults and take the brunt of the enemy attacks, the Imperial Army follows in to mop up and garrison a world brought into compliance.

Consider that modern militaries are a fraction of what they were in the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's and yet with fewer than the 3 million soldiers of the US standing military it can assert control over similarly sized areas as it did with a 12 million man standing force. Technology has allowed that.

Space Marines have better technology and the way they conduct wars reflects that. A component of the US military might is its ability to rapidly move soldiers and support in minutes within the ~400 mile range of its helicopter transports, resuppling and reinforcing soldiers as needed. The height of this capability is to put a missile anywhere in the world, but a missile is one and done. Space Marines and 40k technology allow that height of capability to be conveyed to every element of a Space Marine army.

When Space Marines attack they have the advantage of choosing where to attack while a planets defenders don't really have a luxury of choice. Nazis Germany could put walls and fortifications along Europe's coast but you couldn't do that type of defensive hardening to a whole planet with only the resources of that planet.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Consider that modern militaries are a fraction of what they were in the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's and yet with fewer than the 3 million soldiers of the US standing military it can assert control over similarly sized areas as it did with a 12 million man standing force. Technology has allowed that.

Space Marines have better technology and the way they conduct wars reflects that. A component of the US military might is its ability to rapidly move soldiers and support in minutes within the ~400 mile range of its helicopter transports, resuppling and reinforcing soldiers as needed. The height of this capability is to put a missile anywhere in the world, but a missile is one and done. Space Marines and 40k technology allow that height of capability to be conveyed to every element of a Space Marine army.

When Space Marines attack they have the advantage of choosing where to attack while a planets defenders don't really have a luxury of choice. Nazis Germany could put walls and fortifications along Europe's coast but you couldn't do that type of defensive hardening to a whole planet with only the resources of that planet.

Not to quibble but I think you're wrong about our military still being able to control similar sized areas. We can still defeat large enemy forces of a similar size to previous global conflicts but you can't occupy the same amount of territory with fewer troops. That was one of the key problems in the ME, we could defeat opposing forces but you can't occupy and pacify large nations without a whole lot of boots on the ground. In a similar fashion in 40K space marines can knock out hard targets and defeat numerically superior forces but there is no way that a few hundred or a few thousand marines could adequately garrison an entire planet and keep it in compliance. That requires millions of troops from the Imperial Army and hundreds of thousands if not millions of bureaucrats from the Administratum.

Prestor Jon wrote:
In a similar fashion in 40K space marines can knock out hard targets and defeat numerically superior forces but there is no way that a few hundred or a few thousand marines could adequately garrison an entire planet and keep it in compliance.

True. And that's why they don't do that.

That requires millions of troops from the Imperial Army and hundreds of thousands if not millions of bureaucrats from the Administratum.

Exactly. Luckily Imperium has those.

IMO the imperium's strategies aren't actually supposed to work.

They are supposed to ve confusing and mind bogglingly irrational because they're not tactics, it's dogma.

And dogma often times doesn't make all that much sense.

While this all somewhat fascinating speculation on Imperial Warfare, Logistics and Administration in the Baroque Far Distant Future, it is a bit off topic in terms of what we're really looking to discuss in here!

Maybe a separate thread, down in 40K General?

Sorry.

 Alpharius wrote:
While this all somewhat fascinating speculation on Imperial Warfare, Logistics and Administration in the Baroque Far Distant Future, it is a bit off topic in terms of what we're really looking to discuss in here!

Maybe a separate thread, down in 40K General?

Er...


...seriously.

I'm curious to see what's next for the Solar Auxilia.

 BrookM wrote:
I'm curious to see what's next for the Solar Auxilia.

I think i've glimpsed something about superheavy tanks in HH4, Shadowsword or something. So maybe a pre-heresy variation of the Baneblade? Or maybe a walker? I mean, seriously, when did Forgeworld make a walker unit last time? Or, to put it more bluntly, the Solar Auxillia Contemptor ahoy!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If they do, I hope it's by upping the numbers of everything. I've always hated the fact that the Legions, which are supposed to be completely autonomous and capable of conquering entire systems, are barely a fraction the size of modern day militaries.

I mean, the largest legion is the Ultramarines, who clock in at 250,000 men, whereas the US military alone has 3 million. "40K sucks at scale" doesn't even begin to express the problem with those figures. lol

They're super soldiers wearing armour that turns them into walking tanks. They don't need millions of members to conquer entire systems.

You want a direct 40K equivalent to modern day militaries? Try the Imperial Army/Guard.

The Battle of Kursk, the single largest battle in human history, involved over two million soldiers (something like 2.8 million). The Imperial Guard rarely deploys even a million men for a planetary campaign.

Where's my Corax damnit? Its long past time he was released. He's already been in the Dropsite massacre book, and at least 3 of the Horus Heresy novels.

I know there's been alot of hate on the sheer number of contemptor coming out but that Gal' Vorbak Contemptor is just beautiful, its making not starting a Crimson Slaughter allies list for my renegades very difficult. Comparing the Gal Vorbak and their contemptor to GW's hellbrutes and possessed just makes the FW ones look that much better.

 Kosake wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I'm curious to see what's next for the Solar Auxilia.

I think i've glimpsed something about superheavy tanks in HH4, Shadowsword or something. So maybe a pre-heresy variation of the Baneblade? Or maybe a walker? I mean, seriously, when did Forgeworld make a walker unit last time? Or, to put it more bluntly, the Solar Auxillia Contemptor ahoy!

There was that sneak peak at the Stormhammer model within HH4, so we know that is on the way.

I wonder, though, if there actually will be anything else for the Solar Auxilia not already in HH4. Of course, we still have the Imperial Army itself, as well as some more possibilities for the Mechanicum. And there are still the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence, but I suspect those two will be designed more as allied lists rather than full armies. The Custodes may even just be an "Agents of the Imperium" unit.

I hope the Custodes get their flying rhino.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I hope the Custodes get their flying rhino.

Flying rhino?

Not familiar with that one...

 Padre wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I hope the Custodes get their flying rhino.

Flying rhino?

Not familiar with that one...

I've only seen it in the old 40k card game. I'm not sure if it appeared elsewhere. In any case, I'd expect for FW custodes figures to be made well before they get a rhino variant.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Grav-Rhino

 Kosake wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I'm curious to see what's next for the Solar Auxilia.

I think i've glimpsed something about superheavy tanks in HH4, Shadowsword or something. So maybe a pre-heresy variation of the Baneblade? Or maybe a walker? I mean, seriously, when did Forgeworld make a walker unit last time? Or, to put it more bluntly, the Solar Auxillia Contemptor ahoy!

Sadly, it is the long awaited FW Stormhammer, that doesn't look much like what a Stormhammer 'should' look like.

 Alpharius wrote:
Sadly, it is the long awaited FW Stormhammer, that doesn't look much like what a Stormhammer 'should' look like.

Ain't that the truth. A weird fixed "turret" with a smaller turret on top. The banks of guns on the side are a nice reimagining of the double sponsons, but it should have a two-tiered turret set up!

So when is the white scars contemptor coming out

6 months to a year after you see rules for the legion seems to be par for the course.

 warboss wrote:

 Padre wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I hope the Custodes get their flying rhino.

Flying rhino?

Not familiar with that one...

I've only seen it in the old 40k card game. I'm not sure if it appeared elsewhere. In any case, I'd expect for FW custodes figures to be made well before they get a rhino variant.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Grav-Rhino

Thanks Warboss, I wasn't aware of that!

RE the comments about the Stormhammer, I thought that there were actually two equally legitimate variants of that tank - the twin-turrets, and the double battle-cannons / double demolisher cannon set up?

fidel wrote:
So when is the white scars contemptor coming out

If GW's consistent with their fluff (BWAHAHAHAHAHA...sorry, let me go on), then never. Apparently, they don't possess any dreads because the concept of confining a warrior's spirit to a sarcophagus is abhorrent to them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White_Scar

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

fidel wrote:
So when is the white scars contemptor coming out

If GW's consistent with their fluff (BWAHAHAHAHAHA...sorry, let me go on), then never. Apparently, they don't possess any dreads because the concept of confining a warrior's spirit to a sarcophagus is abhorrent to them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White_Scar

Which is funny, because in the WD that came along with the Stormtalon/Dakkajet/Night Scythe release, there was an Ork/White Scar battle report.

And you guessed it, the WS had a Dreadnought. They even had a bunch of fluff coming with the battle report.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If they do, I hope it's by upping the numbers of everything. I've always hated the fact that the Legions, which are supposed to be completely autonomous and capable of conquering entire systems, are barely a fraction the size of modern day militaries.

I mean, the largest legion is the Ultramarines, who clock in at 250,000 men, whereas the US military alone has 3 million. "40K sucks at scale" doesn't even begin to express the problem with those figures. lol

They're super soldiers wearing armour that turns them into walking tanks. They don't need millions of members to conquer entire systems.

You want a direct 40K equivalent to modern day militaries? Try the Imperial Army/Guard.

The Battle of Kursk, the single largest battle in human history, involved over two million soldiers (something like 2.8 million). The Imperial Guard rarely deploys even a million men for a planetary campaign.

Hmm, I'd imagine this is also because 40k warfare at the end of the day is rather different from our historical warfare, despite appearances. Just check out Philip Sibberings' interpretation of the Imperial Guard!