BA questions - Mephiston and over-charged engines

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**lone pilgrim**

There are two rules queries I have about the new rules in this month's White Dwarf.

1 - Mephiston. His Lord of Death special rule says ...Mephiston has all three BA psychic powers powers, and can use each one of them and his Force Weapon once each player turn... Does this mean he can use Wings of Sanguinius to fly around in the other player's turn? The implications are huge :|

2- Over-charged engines. Can you try to use these on the turn you enter the table from reserves? If so, what happens when you roll a 1 and can't move?

If anyone has any ideas I'd like to hear them.

**Sazzlefrats**

1. Easy.... You only get one "player" turn... your opponents turn is the "other player's turn"

**Balzac**

Actually, GW has clarified that there is a difference between game turns and player turns.

A player turn is each time a particular player takes his turn. A game turn is a pair of player turns. SO, Player A's turn one is one player turn, and Player B's turn one is one player turn, but the two together make one game turn.

I haven't seen the codex yet, so I have no clue what the exact wording of Mephiston's pshycic powers rule is (or even what his pshycic powers are), but if you have quoted exactly, it would appear to allow him to use his powers regardless of what player's turn it is. However, you can only use movement related special powers when you get a movement phase, and you can only use shooting-based special powers when you get a shooting phase. You get neither of these during your opponent's turn. While the BGB's wording doesn't exactly support that statement, read any other way it would mean you could move any and all of your models during your opponents movement phase as well as your own, for instance, and that would be a bit silly (as well as counter to the concept of players having seperate turns).

However, that wording definitely seems to allow him to use his force weapon during every assault phase, instead of every other.

More nebulous and vague rules wording brought to you by the pros at GW. :(

**coredump**

Yes he can use the wings on his opponents turn. The wings let him move like jump infantry. And just how far can jump infantry move no the opponents turn.... exactly.

**beef**

dso if he has to fall back he can fall back 3D6 in his opponents turn but thats it

**Balzac**

Excellent point.

**5thelement**

So just to clear it up he CANNOT just "fly around" in his apponants turn. Unless hes falling back. lol Mephiston fall back ya thats gonna happen.

**don_mondo**

Posted By 5thelement on 05/20/2007 5:01 PM
So just to clear it up he CANNOT just "fly around" in his apponants turn. Unless hes falling back. lol Mephiston fall back ya thats gonna happen.

Is he Fearless? If not, it could happen. I've seen plenty of LD 10 units turn and run.

Re the OP question on overcharged engines, based on the wording I've seen, I don't think they can be used when coming onto the table, primarily due to what you ask, what happens if you roll a 1. Course, I'm willing to let an opponent try it, but if he rolls a 1, that unit is gone from the game, stuck behind the lines trying to get their taxi fixed.

**5thelement**

He is not fearless but by the time he gets done useing three powers and his force weapon per turn there is nothing left to be scared of...
No he can fail but not real common.

**Tiderian**

Based on the copy of the rules that I have seen:
1) the "Wings of Sanguinius" power is used during the BA player's movement phase and lasts for the rest of the turn (not player turn), so he counts as having a jump pack until his next movement phase.
2) the "Might of Heroes" power is used at the start of "either player's" (quoted from the rules I saw) assault phase.
3) the "Transfixing Gaze" power is used "in the Assault phase"

If those are all true in the final version, then it seems to me that at the minimum, Mephiston has an extra D3 attacks (with a successful casting) and can use his force weapon each assault phase.

**blood angel**

Looks like he can use transfixing gaze in every assault phase also. Interesting thing is that it says every enemy model in base has to make the leadership test so him getting dog piled by tons of enemies isn't that bad.

Ohh, and he is listed as fearless.

**Toreador**

Overcharged engines are used in the movement phase. Reserves move on during the start of the players turn,not the movement phase, and so therefore cannot use the overcharged engines.

**coredump**

It says they are diced for availability at the beginning of the turn. It simply says they are moved on. It seems reasonable to assume they move on during the movement phase.

**Toreador**

It also says they move on immediately if available, which means they move onto the table before the movement phase.

This is the rule that shuts down what could be really nasty with DA. If Ravenwing could move before bringing in the terminators first turn they could get them right into the lap of the other army too easily.

**Moopy**

Umm... not sure what version of the rules you're reading.

Mephiston IS Fearless, I'm reading that right now.

Wings of Sanquinius states during the movement phase and makes no mention of being able to use it in the opponents phase. A normal librarian would fall back 3d6 if using this power and fails a moral test.

Overcharged engines: "You may declare that an eligible vehicle is going to use its overcharged engines in any movement phase just before you move it." Since reserves happen before movement, you are not eligible to use them. Nor are you eligible to use them in your opponents phase.

**coredump**

That is not what it says

WHen a reserve unit arrives, it must move on as specified in the reserve section...

...must bring them on the table as soon as they are available.

Nowhere does it say they can move before the movement phase. So they are not available to move onto the board until the movement phase.
The rules say Mephiston can use the wings during the opponents turn, doesn't mean he is 'available' to move except on his movement phase.

This is the rule that shuts down what could be really nasty with DA.

Not the same thing. I am not saying you can move anything else first, just that the reserves are rolled for at the beginning of the turn, then are moved on during the movement phase. That doesn't mean other units get to move first.

**Toreador**

Reserves then is a whole other discussion.

and is Here
Most seem to disagree with you about the order.

Now there is nothing specific to HOW those units move on. Are they just placed at the board edge? Do they "move on" from the board edge? There is nothing defining how reserve units actually enter play that I can see.

**coredump**

Most seem to disagree with you about the order.

If you read what I wrote a bit more carefully, you will see I am not saying anything about the order, just the timing. There is a large difference.

Now there is nothing specific to HOW those units move on

Which is my point. And they don't mention 'when', except to say as soon as you can. Now, some may read that as meaning they can move before the movement phase, but I don't read it that way.

**Hellfury**

Posted By lone pilgrim on 05/18/2007 8:31 AM
There are two rules queries I have about the new rules in this month's White Dwarf.

1 - Mephiston. His Lord of Death special rule says ...Mephiston has all three BA psychic powers powers, and can use each one of them and his Force Weapon once each player turn... Does this mean he can use Wings of Sanguinius to fly around in the other player's turn? The implications are huge :|

Lets quote some rules directly here for comparison.

The BA normal Libby rules:

The psychic power in question:

Now looking at the three excerpts, Mephiston does indeed have the ability to use any of his powers (as well as force weapon) in either players turn, but that still doesnt allow him a Movement Phase during the opponents turn.

So no, he may not use wings of sanguinius in the opponenets turn other than to fall back 3d6", but since Mephiston is fearless, the likelyhood of him falling back is quite nearly nil.

Wings of sanguinius basically doesnt apply for powers that work in the opponents turn.

**Toreador**

So what is general consensus of play? How have people been playing?

Moving on from the board edge and doing it at the point they arrive to me indicates they move out of order of the phase, just like DS. Now if they are just deployed on the edge, then moved during the movement phase you could use supercharged engines.

As far as I can see there is no real correct version as we don't know what move on from the board edge means.

**Hellfury**

Posted By Toreador on 05/23/2007 12:58 PM
So what is general consensus of play? How have people been playing?

Moving on from the board edge and doing it at the point they arrive to me indicates they move out of order of the phase, just like DS. Now if they are just deployed on the edge, then moved during the movement phase you could use supercharged engines.

As far as I can see there is no real correct version as we don't know what move on from the board edge means.

Strictly speaking, there is no deployment for reserves, they simply "move on from the player's deployment zone board edge".

A generic usage of reserves from a scenario:

From my best guess, you measure movement from the edge. You dont deploy a unit then move it. (i.e if it was an infantry unit, you measure 6" from the board edge and place models up to 6" away from the edge.)

So strictly speaking, vehicles using over charged engines would not be able to "move on from the player's deployment zone edge" if that vehicle rolls a 1. it would still be off board.

Thus it may be a good idea not to declare the use of overcharged engines the turn it is deployed from reserves.

**Toreador**

Start of the turn isn't a movement phase though is it? Thus they couldn't declare they were using it in any movement phase?

**coredump**

But you are assuming they move onto the board at the beginning of the turn.

I assert that they move, during the movement phase...

**Hellfury**

Posted By coredump on 05/23/2007 2:06 PM

I assert that they move, during the movement phase...

Same assumption as Toreador's. To me both are equally valid.

Reserves doesnt specify when reserves come onto the board, merely that you dice for reserves at the beginning of the turn. After the rule asks you to dice for units reserves rolls, it then goes on the say "When a reserve unit arrives" it never specifies when that occurs.

Though there is one precedent for start of turn movement for reserves, and that is from deep strikers.

"Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the Reserves rules and then deploy them as follows:"

Going by what reserves says, deepstrikers are deployed at the beginning of the turn, prior to the movement phase. A case could be made that units arriving from reserves could be subject to the same time frame, as it never specifies during the movement phase.

I am convinced that the reserves rules are quite screwed up, as it doesnt say the models are deployed, but move from players deployment zone edge, or deepstrike. Because of this, we cannot ascertain wether you can move after "Moving from the board edge" or if that counts as movement. But considering how deepstriking counts as movement, there may also be a case for reserves from board edge count as moving as well.

This subject makes my brain hurt. I need to figure out a reasonable house rule that makes sense for reserves...

**coredump**

Same assumption as Toreador's. To me both are equally valid.

I agree. I don't think my assertion is rock solid... I can see either version being valid.

**don_mondo**

Posted By Hellfury on 05/23/2007 2:41 PM

Posted By coredump on 05/23/2007 2:06 PM

I assert that they move, during the movement phase...
Same assumption as Toreador's. To me both are equally valid.

Reserves doesnt specify when reserves come onto the board, merely that you dice for reserves at the beginning of the turn. After the rule asks you to dice for units reserves rolls, it then goes on the say "When a reserve unit arrives" it never specifies when that occurs.

Though there is one precedent for start of turn movement for reserves, and that is from deep strikers.

"Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the Reserves rules and then deploy them as follows:"

Going by what reserves says, deepstrikers are deployed at the beginning of the turn, prior to the movement phase. A case could be made that units arriving from reserves could be subject to the same time frame, as it never specifies during the movement phase.

I am convinced that the reserves rules are quite screwed up, as it doesnt say the models are deployed, but move from players deployment zone edge, or deepstrike. Because of this, we cannot ascertain wether you can move after "Moving from the board edge" or if that counts as movement. But considering how deepstriking counts as movement, there may also be a case for reserves from board edge count as moving as well.

This subject makes my brain hurt. I need to figure out a reasonable house rule that makes sense for reserves...

I don't think they'e that 'screwed up'. I think that the writers made a couple of assumptions:

1. First phase of any players turn is the movement phase;

2. therefor if we say at the beginning of the turn it happens in the movement phase;

3. Movement (other than assault or movement granted by special rules) occurs in the movement phase

4. therefor if we say something moves, people know when it moves.

5. Moving counts as moving, we don't need to tell you that moving on counts as your move becasue you... well, moved.

**lone pilgrim**

Thanks for the replies everyone.

On my Mephiston question - he can cast the power but can't do anything with it, because he can't move in the opponents turn. I get it.

On the over-charged engines - I'm really undecided on this. I think for myself I'll fudge it, and just not use them on the turn I enter the board. It's the solution that favours me the least.

On a related note, I played a game a couple of days ago and used my Chaos Dread in an escalation game. I felt I couldn't choose not to roll for it's random action and of course I got fire frenzy. After some discussion with my opponent we placed it on the table edge and it shot twice (killing one of his tanks). Another fudge. Meh.

**Hellfury**

Posted By don_mondo on 05/24/2007 4:01 AM

I don't think they'e that 'screwed up'. I think that the writers made a couple of assumptions:

1. First phase of any players turn is the movement phase;

2. therefor if we say at the beginning of the turn it happens in the movement phase;

3. Movement (other than assault or movement granted by special rules) occurs in the movement phase

4. therefor if we say something moves, people know when it moves.

5. Moving counts as moving, we don't need to tell you that moving on counts as your move becasue you... well, moved.

In this case I think youre correct, but its the lack of consistency that makes me mad. If I could just look at deep strike and know that since they MOVED before the movement phase, that reserves off the table edge do as well. Deep strike is somewhat obscured, but reserves from the table edge is downright nonsense.
Maybe I need to read it a few more times and then take a time machine to the 60's to pick up some primo window pane to help in deciphering GW rules for reserves. Perhaps then it will reveal itself.

Again, I think your assertion of the designers intent is correct, but then again, the rules are the rules... And as far as rules go, closed world assumption isnt helping a whole lot telling us how to read this.

**Toreador**

Yep, I think Don Mondo has the intent.

I think Jervis made the comment that way too much in this version had been assumed. That certain rules weren't tightened up because there was an assumption that people have just done it this way forever, so it wasn't stated explicitly. I assume this wasn't done as an overt act, but it happened because of the way the developers were looking at the system and writing the rules. Part of the reason they need to make an effort to write it so someone new to the game can understand it and it is totally clear. Another reason why they need to put out FAQs covering this sort of thing. I don't care if it changes the way we play the rules. I want something unambiguous. I will paste those changes into the book, I don't care!

**Beast**

I agree, I would much rather have a definitive ruling on so many of these type issues even if it changes the way I play. At least there won't be endless arguments consisting of "It says this..." "No it says that..." "No it says this..." "No it says that..." ad nauseum.