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Just a few things the movement phase is the first thing done in your turn. So it would be pretty obvious since the rules say CANNOT move on the turn it arrives that it comes on before the movement phase.

Second reserves arriving from the edge of the board do it before any movement, it does not say anywhere like with drop pods that they cannot move so walla,
As for the chaos dread you did the right thing. Everyone thinks they are a pain to use but really you rarely ever shoot your own guys.

as for mephiston i totally disagree you must use his abilities in your phase only unless otherwise stated like with cc abilities.

Posted By 5thelement on 05/24/2007 9:35 AM

Just a few things the movement phase is the first thing done in your turn. So it would be pretty obvious since the rules say CANNOT move on the turn it arrives that it comes on before the movement phase.

Second reserves arriving from the edge of the board do it before any movement, it does not say anywhere like with drop pods that they cannot move so walla,
As for the chaos dread you did the right thing. Everyone thinks they are a pain to use but really you rarely ever shoot your own guys.

as for mephiston i totally disagree you must use his abilities in your phase only unless otherwise stated like with cc abilities.

So by your logic, a unit that Deepstrikes should be able to shoot unrestricted.  Unfortunately RAW says that they count as moving (because they moved in the movement phase) and so hvy weapons and the like (speeders, etc) may not be fired.  Nowhere in the rules does it say that they come on before the movement phase- that is your assumption.  DSers cannot move further because their entry onto the table from reserve (during the movement phase) IS their movement.  Please, please, please show me where it says that they arrive before the movement phase.  If you can't then it is just an attempt at a logical deduction, and that is just plain silly when you are talking about 40K rules.

Its says you CANNOT move on the turn you arrive so it has to be before the movement phase is that hard to understand? As for reserves and table edge and deepstrike you use the same rule but its apples and oranges applying a rule midstream. The rule for pods and true ds is to keep them from being the perfect transport in the game like the old rhino rush.

Yes call it during the movement phase if you like. The above again answers this plain as day. 

If it is indeed part of movement how is it i check the Movement rules and find nodda nothing about ds? Or even reserves?

Well, if you try and use your Supercharged engines before your on the board and you roll that 1 are you dead? When reserves show up you can't chose not to bring them on the table. If DS roll off the edge they're lost. Sounds like to me if you fail your supercharged engine roll, your vehicle/unit is lost since it never made it on the board.

Remember everyone that a game is a permissive rules set and the only phases currently defined in a turn are the movement, shooting and assault phases.

That means if the rules state that something happens at the "start" or "beginning" of the turn by definition that means it technically occurs at the beginning/start of one player's movement phase.

Until a rule comes along that states: "At the beginning of the turn, before the movement phase. . ." no such 'pre-movement phase' exists.

So where does this leave over-charged engines moving onto the table from reserves? It is a grey area not covered in the rules so it will have to be decided upon between the players or covered in a FAQ.

Tell me if this makes any sense (I can't find my BGB, so I'm working based on the assumption of wording accuracy by previous posters):

1. There are only the three phases, as per Yakface, so there is no "before the movement phase" phase"

2. When a unit that is in reserve is successfully rolled for it becomes "available"

3. "Available" models must move onto the board from the edge (barring any special scenario rules) this turn -- they can't hang around and wait for their buddies.

4. Models coming from reserves may not move this turn, as per 5thelement

5. 3 and 4 are mutually exclusive and must be reconciled, so:
Either there really is a "pre-movement phase" phase implied here, and I agree with Yak that there is not enough substance to claim such a thing, or the "may not move after coming on from reserve rule" is GW's poorly-worded attempt to explain that moving on from the board edge is not the same as the initial deployment at the start of the game, and so those units cannot move again the same turn after moving on from the edge. Probably the most tenuous part of the argument, but I'll take poor GW wording and generally accepted manner of play over vague hints of an un-named game phase. If nothing else, using pure RAW (if previous posters have been accurate in wording), being required to move on from the board edge but not allowed to move that turn should essentially break the game, so there must be some slippage in the rules or games would seize up in failed logic, usually on turn 2.

6. When you move on from reserves, from the board edge, you move each unit as per its individual movement rules. Infantry can come on 6". Jump troops can come on 12". A bike can turbo-boost 24" straight away from the board edge. Therefore, special unit movement rules are in effect when coming in from reserves.

7. Therefore, BA vehicles may use overcharged engines when coming in from reserves.

8. A unit must move on from reserves if it is available = General Rule.

9. Vehicles with overcharged engines that fail their roll cannot move = Special Rule.

10. The overcharged engines special rule outweighs the reserves general rule. A vehicle with overcharged engines coming in from reserves that fails its roll may not move (on to the board) this turn.

11. At no point does any rule say that a vehicle that fails to move on to the board the turn it becomes "available" ceases to be "available" in subsequent turns. Therefore, a vehicle with overcharged engines that failed its roll and could not move onto the board the first turn it became available, remains available the next turn, and may (must?) attempt to move on to the table from the board edge the next turn.

Please point out logical errors and use of incorrect rules wording.

Posted By yakface on 05/24/2007 6:26 PM

Remember everyone that a game is a permissive rules set and the only phases currently defined in a turn are the movement, shooting and assault phases.

That means if the rules state that something happens at the "start" or "beginning" of the turn by definition that means it technically occurs at the beginning/start of one player's movement phase.

Until a rule comes along that states: "At the beginning of the turn, before the movement phase. . ." no such 'pre-movement phase' exists.

Thanks yak- you said quite clearly what I have been dancing around for a while.  If only people would keep this basic tenet of the game in mind this argument (about DS, reserves, OC engines, etc) would be largely moot.

Makes good sense Yak.

So question. So thoughts on using overcharged engines? Do you place it on the board edge then roll? Roll off board? Would it be considered "eligible" if off table?

Posted By Toreador on 05/25/2007 8:03 AM
Makes good sense Yak.

So question. So thoughts on using overcharged engines? Do you place it on the board edge then roll? Roll off board? Would it be considered "eligible" if off table?

Well, I think it is clear that you can attempt to use over-charged engines and if you fail by the rules you wouldn't be able to move the vehicle onto the table.

The problem is, the rules simply do not address what happens at that point. Is the vehicle lost for the rest of the game? Does it automatically arrive the next turn? Do you have to roll for availability again next turn?

 

I would generally want to play that the vehicle automatically arrives in the next turn, but that's just my personal opinion.

 

Posted By yakface on 05/25/2007 5:57 PM

Posted By Toreador on 05/25/2007 8:03 AM
Makes good sense Yak.

So question. So thoughts on using overcharged engines? Do you place it on the board edge then roll? Roll off board? Would it be considered "eligible" if off table?

Well, I think it is clear that you can attempt to use over-charged engines and if you fail by the rules you wouldn't be able to move the vehicle onto the table.

The problem is, the rules simply do not address what happens at that point. Is the vehicle lost for the rest of the game? Does it automatically arrive the next turn? Do you have to roll for availability again next turn?

 

I would generally want to play that the vehicle automatically arrives in the next turn, but that's just my personal opinion.

 

Hmmmm, I'd disagree as there is no general rule mechanic in the game for allowing a unit that was unable to arrive when it was supposed to to arrive at a later time. Necrons and DE each have special rules that allow/cover this, but no general rule. As a side question, how would you handle a SW Scout squad that was unable to enter the table due to a 'picket fince' of enemy models?

You disagree with my personal preference on how I'd handle the situation given my choice? That's fine.

When it comes to a 'picket fence' preventing reserves from moving onto the table I would play the Reserves that are unable to enter play as effectively being destroyed. That is because I feel there is a difference between enemies preventing units from getting into battle as different from a unit being unable to move.

Again, I want to point out that I'm discussing issues not covered by the rules and how I personally would choose to play it given that my opponent completely agreed with my decision.

Posted By yakface on 05/25/2007 7:33 PM

You disagree with my personal preference on how I'd handle the situation given my choice? That's fine.

When it comes to a 'picket fence' preventing reserves from moving onto the table I would play the Reserves that are unable to enter play as effectively being destroyed. That is because I feel there is a difference between enemies preventing units from getting into battle as different from a unit being unable to move.

Again, I want to point out that I'm discussing issues not covered by the rules and how I personally would choose to play it given that my opponent completely agreed with my decision.

Agreed, personal preference or opinion on issues not covered by the rules. Thanks, that's how I play the SW scouts situation as well.

I can clear this one up for you guys!

I was searching for something else and came accross this post, and have recently sorted it out with the friends I play with, so no need to barrate me for dragging up old posts, it seems to be relevent as no resolution seems to be present in this thread...


P.94 arriving from reserves section...

'if a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) [i][u]or that could stop it from moving[i][u], the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from reserve.

:-D

This was a 2 year old thread where there was no such rule at the time of the last post - 5th ed changed that.

What nosferatu1001 said.

Please read the Dakka Rules (click Rule #1 in my sig) before posting further.

Thank you.