Further comments from Gav Thrope on the veteran situation

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**Frazzled**

From Warseer thread started by Gav Thorpe on what veterans want. Here is a later statement:

You go away for a few days, and then suddenly it gets busy again!

The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite. The conditions in which I became a hobbyist were very different to those today, just as the gaming hobby was very different when the likes of Rick and Jervis were growing up. It is because of this that perhaps I don't really sympathise with some of the issues being raised in this thread - not that they are not geniune concerns, simply that I have never found myself in a similar situation. I never had a venue other than my parents' house to play in. I didn't have access to a wealth of advice and discussion on the internet. I certanly didn't have starter sets and army books to get me started.

These days an incredible amount of effort is expended introducing people to the principles of collecting, painting and playing with miniatures. Many of us take for granted what a wealth of knowledge we have accumulated over our years of gaming, and forget how little we knew when we started. Our aim is to remove as many obstacles as possible that stand in the way of people who are going to enjoy collecting, painting and playing with toy solders - what we call the 'hobby gene'.

For me, beng a veteran is about being the controller of your hobby. A veteran has the experience and knowhow to own their own hobby and to know what they want from it. A hobby is a personal thing and miniatures are no different. A veteran knows what sorts of games he likes to play - competetive tournements, wacky scenarios etc – and he understand his level of painting and modelling, the armies the collects, the types of miniatures he likes and so forth. Once a hobbyst has been introduced to the possibilities available, they will make their own informed choices. However, it's important for everyone to remember that a hobby is a personal journey, each person gets something different out of it, and it's not the place of GW or others to dictate to individuals what their hobby should be.

One of the things we are looking to do is make sure that we continue to support all of those possible choices in a better fashion. We'll run GTs and other events for players that like that sort of thing, but we'll also still have Golden Demon for the painters, Black Library for the background-lovers, Forgeworld for the treadheads, and so on. What we've identified as being a gap in recent years is the 'non-Codex' gaming side of things. We recognise how popular Kill team was in the 40K rulebook, for instance. We have a number of supplements planned that will give gamers more variety - different game types like Cities of Death, campaign tools such as Mighty Empires, large free-for-alls in Apocalypse, and others. We're also dedicating some time to purely collectible miniatures as part of our direct sales offer. Over the last couple of years there has been lots of talk about the 'veteran offer' in the Design Studio, and it is an area we're seeking to address, so it pains me to see people claim that 'GW' doesn't care about veterans.

On the suggestion about the evolving storyline, this has proven to be impracticable. The Warhammer and 40K background exist as settings in which players can create their own armies and battles, write their own stories and invent their own characters. They serve as a backdrop, not an ongoing narrative. To overlay too much narrative onto this background will again start to restrict the choices players can make. Have Grimgor leading your Orcs army? You can make up any number of storylines for him. However, if we followed through on Storm of Chaos any longer, for example, players would have to wait for GW to tell them what their 'army' is up to. Although we create the background, we've come to realise it is a shared part of the hobby as much as anything else, and it's not there for us to hijack away from players.

We've managed to get into a position where officialdom and dictating the hobby to players has created a great deal of restriction about what people collect, how they paint, how they game, and how they interact with the background. Our aim is to release hobbyists from these constraints so that they are again free to enjoy toy soldiers in whatever way the like, without GW (or the community) having to endorse it.

I hope that makes my position a little clearer.

Cheers,

GAV

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http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83428&page=16

**ancientsociety**

Let's do a bit of interpretation, shall we?

"These days an incredible amount of effort is expended introducing people to the principles of collecting, painting and playing with miniatures."

-and little or no thought is put into keeping our veteran customers happy and their years of experience and purcahsing relevant...

"However, it's important for everyone to remember that a hobby is a personal journey, each person gets something different out of it "

-GW gets your money, new gamers get hooked, and veterans get shafted. I guess it is a "personal journey", in the sense that you're on your own

"and it's not the place of GW or others to dictate to individuals what their hobby should be."

-then why allow only GW minis in sponsored games or @ stores? why regulate what units/armies are and are not legal?

"One of the things we are looking to do is make sure that we continue to support all of those possible choices in a better fashion.....(etc)"

-Did he mention ANYTHING AT ALL that wasn't something new? I see he failed to include any "Specialist Games", older armies, etc. Yep, it's great that the only thing GW actively supports is anything "new and improved"!

"One of the things we are looking to do is make sure that we continue to support all of those possible choices in a better fashion"

-Because we've stopped supporting every Specialist Game and have made entire minis/units obsolete, but hey, now they're "collectible"!!!

"On the suggestion about the evolving storyline, this has proven to be impracticable"

-We are hereby making all future campaigns meaningless....

"Our aim is to release hobbyists from these constraints so that they are again free to enjoy toy soldiers in whatever way the like, without GW (or the community) having to endorse it."

-BEST GW DOUBLESPEAK EVER! So Gav, can I now use my Hasslefree Ratling Snipers @ my local GW? Can I use Zealots in my Withchunters army? Will you be making every Inquisitor mini available (including the Repentia, Kal Jericho, and Citizens) to us, and not just via "Direct Order"? Will you be rereleasing every 1st ed., non-SG Necromunda mini? No? Oh well....

And I'm so happy to have GW's "permission" to enjoy my wargames. I guess now I'm free to check out their competitors....?

**Asmodai**

Thanks for the post.

I agree with his point about how too much 'meta-plot' gets in the way. I also like the support for multiple playstyles.

On the other hand, he says absolutely nothing substantial to show that GW cares about veterans, other than saying "We care about veterans." If you do, then you need to show us with your actions.

He also talks about getting rid of constraints, but the trend in recent GW publications has been to limit and restrict the ability of players to personalize and customize their armies. That seems inconsistent with his statement.

**malfred**

By restrictions I think he's referring to being beholden to a plot.

**ancientsociety**

jfrazell: Where on Warseer is this? I'd LOVE to share my thoughts....

**Frazzled**

There are two threads, one in discussions and one where this came from (thread was at the bottom of the quote but here it is because I am a full service provider).

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83428&page=16

**ancientsociety**

Oh, dur! It is at the bottom of your initial post! Sorry, the workweek has rotted my brain!

**Grot 6**

Its good to see that Gav is still up to his old tricks of ruining the game. Company todie at his best, whose opinion is about as useless as he is.

Then people wonder why the hobbie is falling by the wayside. Its because of strokes like this guy, continuously infringing on things that doesn't concern him. Thank this guy for about 50% of the mass confusion factor of the game.

Go away, Gav, you noob!

I'll be giving you something to chew on over on warseer, you pogue.

**Frazzled**

Posted By ancientsociety on 05/18/2007 11:09 AM
Oh, dur! It is at the bottom of your initial post! Sorry, the workweek has rotted my brain!

No problem I could see where it could be missed.

**fellblade**

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For me, beng a veteran is about being the controller of your hobby. A veteran has the experience and knowhow to own their own hobby and to know what they want from it. A hobby is a personal thing and miniatures are no different. A veteran knows what sorts of games he likes to play - competetive tournements, wacky scenarios etc – and he understand his level of painting and modelling, the armies the collects, the types of miniatures he likes and so forth. Once a hobbyst has been introduced to the possibilities available, they will make their own informed choices. However, it's important for everyone to remember that a hobby is a personal journey, each person gets something different out of it, and it's not the place of GW or others to dictate to individuals what their hobby should be.

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**Lormax**

The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...

**grimshawl**

Its so stupid, Gav asked for Vets opinions and then disregarded all of it and climbs up on his GW soapbox to spew platitudes and obnoxious nothings down upon the crowd, I bet he even went smiling back to GW to get a pat on the back and tell everyone how he got all the vets back on the GeeDub Bandwagon.

**dienekes96**

Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...

That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses.

Dakka at it's worst.

**Frazzled**

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...

That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses.

Dakka at it's worst.

"The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite."

You're right with statements like that why would the "fans" not respond in any way but a positive manner?

Seriously the thread on warseer was a reaonable one right up to the point he re-posted.

**syr8766**

Interesting comments. Unfortunately, as was stated, GW's Design team has done little-to-nothing to respond to Veterans' (a rather large catchall category, too) needs/desires/wishes.

Better than it used to be? In terms of product availability, diversity of product and the ability to share with the global community, it's probably a golden age right now. But comparing to the 'bad old days' of deodorant hovertanks and kitbashed 1/72nd WWII figures is not a productive response, anymore than, say, dienknes96's little anti-dakka statement above (I'm assuming you meant that to be self-deprecating, as you're posting here, right?). The reality is, just as there is more from GW, there is ALSO more from everyone else, and the consumer/hobbyist now has many, many options to chose from when it comes to gaming/toy soldier modeling. It's not the late-90s anymore, when GW was the last, best hope for gaming after the death of Target, Ral Partha/Fasa, etc.

Furthermore, saying that the design team is looking at ways to appeal to vets but SHOWING no concrete examples (White Dwarf and Black Gobbo mostly junk, no FAQs, the USGT system in shambles, and very little web-based or WD based Combat Patrol/Killteam/Warbands etc. support) is not helpful.

Most of the good stuff out there is fan generated, and yet there's no Citadel Journal (or its web equivalent) to be seen, and almost no input from fans on the outside, save occasionally asking a 'celebrity' painter (e.g. Lilliana Troy) to do up a squad or army (and are they even still doing that?).

I'm glad he came to chime in; really, I am. It's good to see that folks like Gav aren't just waiting for the throngs to come to them, and after mortifying their flesh and offering up hosannahs, asking what's new. Having said that, the burden of proof of intention lies on the shoulders of the design team and company. "Veterans" are less and less interested in giving them the benefit of the doubt, and a little bit of transparency is in order now.

Gav got one thing right, though: being a vet. player means owning the hobby. Not the game designer, not the sculptor, and not the CEO, but the player, which means I can take my time, money and interest somewhere else. Gav should listen to himself.

EDIT: forgot to qualify my sentence above. Italics there to indicate new text.

**Lemartes**

syr8766 sums it up perfectly. I have been with GW for a long time and thier seems to be better product on the market now and the competition for the gameing community is fiercer than ever and it seems rather than hold on to thier long time loyal fan base they rather dump it and start from scratch. Problem is the veteren crowd goes with another company and promotes that other company to the newer kids/customers just starting out. GW loses customers and stock value and starts to eat it's own (closing stores). It's a viscious cycle.

**ether dude**

What I see that people haven't already mentioned is that Gav is pushing "non-codex" hobby stuff; GTs, painting intros, starter sets, campaign tools etc. but he never addresses the issues of players WITHOUT codecies (orks). Here's a demonstration:
Store owner: "So, I'm starting up a local group to play in [insert appocalyptic name here] which uses GW's new campaing book, would you like to join?"
SM player: "Sure, let me just choose one of the 5 major codecies that are out on my army and I'll get back to you"
Ork player: ...in all honesty, I have never even met someone who plays orks and my FLGS doesn't even carry them anymore. It's officially reached joke status at this point.

cheers

**Ozymandias**

Can you imagine if Gav posted here? Wow...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Wayfarer**

Can anyone define 'Veteran' as it pertains to the GW hobby? Honestly I want to know what the qualifications are.

**dienekes96**

Posted By jfrazell on 05/18/2007 1:42 PM

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...

That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses.

Dakka at it's worst.

"The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite."

You're right with statements like that why would the "fans" not respond in any way but a positive manner?

Seriously the thread on warseer was a reaonable one right up to the point he re-posted.

I was talking about the thread here. I was talking about the attitude of the posts, not the content. I don't believe I stated that responses should be "positive". I used "reasonable and mature", concepts apparently foreign to serial whiners. There is plenty of legit GW decisions to complain about, but the whining has become not the means to an end, but the end itself for some hobbyists.

It's childish, churlish, and pointless. I usually just let it slide, but this thread hit critical mass in the first page. I commented.

**ancientsociety**

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 5:23 PM

Posted By jfrazell on 05/18/2007 1:42 PM

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 1:26 PM

Posted By Lormax on 05/18/2007 12:47 PM
The thread on Warseer is a train wreck waiting to happen...I haven't clicked on it yet, I don't think I want to, but I can't help myself but look...

That's OK. The thread here is already a train wreck. I am surprised there is no discourse between designers and fans. The fans clearly merit it with their reasoned and mature responses.

Dakka at it's worst.

"The point of describing my own experience was not to say I share your pain or any other attempt at empathy, but pretty much the opposite."

You're right with statements like that why would the "fans" not respond in any way but a positive manner?

Seriously the thread on warseer was a reaonable one right up to the point he re-posted.

I was talking about the thread here. I was talking about the attitude of the posts, not the content. I don't believe I stated that responses should be "positive". I used "reasonable and mature", concepts apparently foreign to serial whiners. There is plenty of legit GW decisions to complain about, but the whining has become not the means to an end, but the end itself for some hobbyists.

It's childish, churlish, and pointless. I usually just let it slide, but this thread hit critical mass in the first page. I commented.

Please DO NOT feed the Dakka Troll.

Nothing to see here, move along....

**dienekes96**

Yeah, *I'm* the Dakka troll.

That correlates with my posting history here.

**syr8766**

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 5:36 PM
Yeah, *I'm* the Dakka troll.

That correlates with my posting history here.

Easy, choomba. Relax, have a tall glass of lemonade. Here, I'll give you one.

It's the internet. Getting defensive on it is like losing a game of checkers to a 5-year old. Who doesn't know how to play.

The hobby/non-standard stuff Gav is talking about is interesting to me, but I haven't seen them do a WD or BG article on Killteam or Combat Patrol since 2005. Ditto on Path To Glory/Border Patrol. I'd love to see a book devoted to those type of small-scale things, along with articles on escalation leagues etc., but other than COD and doing a lot of talking, all I see is bupkus.

**Jester**

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/18/2007 5:36 PM
Yeah, *I'm* the Dakka troll.

That correlates with my posting history here.

First that crack about the Orks, now this? You need to be punched in that whorish mouth of yours, Chuck.

To be honest, I didn't read all of Gav's post, for many of the same reasons I didn't read the entirety of Angels of Darkness, but I think I got the gist of it.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am, and always have been, my hobby. I have been buying lumps of lead, plastic and tin from GW at much higher than cost for more years that many of you. I have written multiple scenarios, painted hundreds of miniatures, and written page upon page of turgid fanfic. I've scraped more flash than Annie Leibowitz's coke mirror. Yet I have never gone to a Games Day, entered a Golden Daemon, or competed in a Grand Tournament, and I probably never will. Perhaps this doesn't make me a GW veteran, but I think it does.

I just don't like to be talked down to, is all, and this fatherly pat-on-the-head of a post sounds like talking down to me. I understand that GW's main focus at this stage is to grow the fanbase, but to give meaningless platitudes to veterans is quite chafing, to say the least.

**Green Bloater**

Gav is out there for sure but he did some innovative stuff during the third edition. What is funny is all his innovation is being pushed to the wayside except for what his pilgrim Phil Kelly has been able to keep alive.

- Greenie

**ender502**

And does Gav even actually answer a question? Should we be mollified by him saying "we care"? I have heard that line from plenty of politicians and it is true.. at least until they cash your check and they are out the back of the tent.

What is pissing off veteran players (besides prices and poorly written rules) is 1: a basic reduction of the game itself in the form of a lack of variability in the codices and 2: a strategy for changing the game that nerfs units because GW is too stupid to see the mistakes are or callously nerfing them to get you to spend more on a different unit.

I am disgruntled.

ender502

**Kilkrazy**

Gavin can talk down to me as much as he likes, because I'll happily ignore him and go somewhere else.

There is collosal choice in the world of miniature wargaming nowadays. The Internet has created superb channels of communication and sales. Shows and competitions are booming and there are more and more companies offering figures in all scales, terrain pieces and add-ons like blast markers and pre-cut bases. (When I were a lad we had to cut our own bases from stiff card.) And there are more and more well-thought-out systems available like AT43, Infinity and so on. I'd almost say there are too many different rules-sets available -- go on a site like Caliver Books and you can find over 30 different books for Napoleonic rules.

In short, it's a great time to be a miniature wargamer. The difficulty is in choice and focus.

The problem with the "GW hobby" is only a problem if you fixate on GW and ignore the rest of the wargaming universe.

Fed up with too many Spase Marienz? Go and play some DBA ancients. The rules cost £6 and you can slap together a cool 6mm army for £25.

http://www.baccus6mm.com/index.php?content=products/ancient/25mm&detail=25mm

People can moan on Internet forums all they like. Corporations only understand what their balance sheet tells them.

**manitoujoe**

Everyone has their opinion. I agree with Gav.

With something as rich and complex as 40k/Fantasy, there are bound to be differing opinions on how things should be handled, produced and tested. Personally, I just want to get with my group and have some fun. That's all. I don't need to play in GTs or compare paintjobs. Frankly, I'd probably lose.

I just know I don't want to be one of the two guys arguing rules in the corner of the gameshop, because that defeats the entire purpose of playing at all. if I wanted useless, mounting stress, I'd go back to work for a couple of hours. While it's important everyone gets a fair shake with the rules, it's equally important to remember why we're playing.

And Gav doesn't have to post, anyway. I think it's cool he did, though. Shows character, stepping into the lion's den like that.

My two cents.

**Orlanth**

Gav Thorpe can happily natter in front of Warseer fanboys. Dare he come here?
GW already (quietly) acknowledges Dakka as the place to go to meet veteran gamers who know more than most, or at least more than they do. Probably why they stay the hell away.

**dienekes96**

They stay away because there is no dialogue here. Why even bother? Minds are made up, facts are squeezed into opinions, and all they will get is a ton of grief for even trying.

It's not because they are scared of facing the AWESOME knowledge of the world-renowned Dakkaites...it's because it isn't even worth the trouble.

On my earlier comment...it's not me getting defensive. It's me getting amused.