Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/19/2007 5:50 AM
They stay away because there is no dialogue here. Why even bother? Minds are made up, facts are squeezed into opinions, and all they will get is a ton of grief for even trying.

It's not because they are scared of facing the AWESOME knowledge of the world-renowned Dakkaites...it's because it isn't even worth the trouble.


On my earlier comment...it's not me getting defensive. It's me getting amused.

It's funny dienekes, you keep harping on about how there's "no content/logic/dialogue" on Dakka. Well, I haven't heard you astound us with your amazing logic and discourse, so please enlighten us plebs, with something other than "Dakka/this thread/Dakkaites suck because X".

If you can't do that, then you're a) not truly contributing anything yourself, b) wasting our time, and c) making us all wonder why you post to a site you think so little of.....

I am with ancient' here. Dakka is not short of people who know how to think.

If many of us are unhappy with GW its because we have LONG STANDING REASONS. Please dont mistake us for kiddies/dweebs with grudges.

Sure if any GW designer or policy maker came here they would get some fanboys, and plenty of flaming trolls. That is inevitable as anyone can post here. But they will also get home truths and opinions, and many of them would do them good.

The reason there is no discourse is because there is only one meta-voice, dakka. GW never talks to us. They never have and they never will. They don't want public discourse. They don't want to explain their reasoning.

Me? If GW posted here and said "it's all about the money. Now deal or flip off." I would give them props for at least being honest.

If they said "look, it's a tension between making a game we like and making money. As a publicly traded company we have alot of voices that we didn't in the early years." I would give them crazy props.

But they don't and won't say that. Because thta may lead to discourse. And discourse is a two way street. GW has shown no interest in that whatsoever.

Don't run down Dakka just because GW doesn't have the cojones to talk WITH us instead of AT us.

And let this be  achallenge to GW... Come and talk to us. I for one will be civil. Our mods are great and will handle the trolls. Let us know what you're thinking and why. We will give you our opinions and maybe we can together (designers and players) help create a game that is great to play and profitable for the company.

ender502

QFT

Also, I'm not thrilled with what Gav posted. He does a fine job of filling the page with hollow platitudes and non-information. I read it and my first thought was something along the lines of "Well that's a load of crap."
Once I read it again I changed my oppinion to, "Well that's just too bad I guess."
It's sad realy.
I want to keep on liking GW and I want to be thrilled with the next big release (even if it is Marines) I want to want more GW stuff. I want them to take my money and my time. I want GW to grip me the way they grabbed hold of my imagination and made me want to play thier games back when I first got serious about mini-games. I'm pretty easy to please, I'll take the dumbed downed rules and the all plastic armies. Realy all I want from them is to can the attitude. Syr's right Gav should listen to himself. It's a contract between the company and the players whereby they provide the tools and we provide the labour (often of love). They aren't holding up thier end of the bargain and that's just too bad.

QFT

Boy I'm agreeable today.

How many companies talk to their fans on boards like this?


Pretty much none. Blizzard doesn't, GW doesn't, WotC does somewhat, but not for anything important.

Places like Dakka are pretty unrepresentative of the hobby as a whole. GW would get more meaningful input by putting consumer reply cards in 1 of 10 boxes and conducting focus groups.

Talking to customers on the internet is much more PR than product research or looking for good ideas.

Know what? NO ONE wants to do that. But for those of us who do play in tournaments, where we're outside our local group of friends who all play the same way, it is important that the rules are complete.

If they'd write a competent ruleset, EVERYONE wins. It's one thing there shouldn't be any difference of opinion on, because there is NO downside to writing rules correctly.

Privateer Press does. Blizzard used to, and still does (in a limited sense) when they're testing stuff (oh, wait, GW doesn't test stuff). Actually, quite a few video game developers do, during various beta tests.

Dakka may not be a random sampling, but I would disagree that it's not representative. There is a pretty fair cross-section of "for fun" gamers, tournament goers, and modelers. More to the point, most of them are enthusiastic, or would like to be, about playing with toy soldiers.

GW has a difficult business niche - they sell a luxury item, and have been doing so long enough that market GROWTH is a serious issue (they've reached most of the interested market, and the majority of their new customers are ones who were previously too young to get involved).

Also, their product, by and large, doesn't expire at some time after purchase - there's no predetermined expected lifespan of a plastic miniature. Unlike cars or computers, they can't expect most of their customer base to replace existing products with replacements in a few years' time.

So, what can they do? They adjust the rules, to create an artificial lifespan on their products. They create new units, which we haven't already purchased. They resculpt models, to (hopefully) create a better-looking product so that people will replace older models.

But here's the big problem: they have a total of TWO potential customer targets: the neophite player (largely too young to have been previously involved in the game, plus a few older people drawn in, often by "friends"), and the veteran player (who has a collection of models already).

For the past few years, they have been focusing on the neophite player, who is going to come into the store and buy a large chunk at once, rather than a blister or a single box at a time. Also, they've made a conscious effort to simplify the rules, which lowers one barrier to entry by making the game more accessible to an even younger player (in essence, growing the current market by letting in 3-4 years' worth of new players in a single year).

Meanwhile, the veteran player has been feeling somewhat left out. The retail stores aren't especially welcoming. The new rules are simpler than what he's used to, and every time some rules are changed, he loses options he had before (and units that he's already purchased and painted become less useful, or vanish entirely).

And what do we get out of Gav? Platitudes. Reminders that he's been around even longer than a lot of older players. Promises of "more ways to play," at the SAME TIME we are getting new rules that offer FEWER ways to play (fewer options, fewer units, fewer armies).

So yes, I understand GW's problems. And yes, I truly think that, if given a well-moderated way to interact with them, quite a few posters on Dakka could A) express why they are feeling increasingly alienated by current GW practices; and B) explain what changes would make them feel less alienated.

And I fully understand why GW wouldn't want to do such a thing. They would have to admit that, in many cases, they could not act on option B, from a business standpoint. At which point, your alienated veteran becomes and ex-player, as he knows he will never see his concerns addressed. The way it currently is, at least, we can continue hoping for the unlikely, instead of knowing the impossible.

Wow. That came off rather more bitter than I had planned.

I still play 40k. I still (mostly) enjoy 40k. I still buy models, at roughly 1 new army/year (curse you, Adepticon). But I don't try to get new people to play anymore; GW has lost my services as a saleman. I cannot advocate getting into an expensive system, when their current approach to the business is not sustainable. And I certainly WON'T advocate a system with such loose rules to my (patent attorney) colleagues - it's maddening how GW plays so fast-and-loose with language.

(To curtail the "how would you do it better then, huh?" crowd: I don't have a perfect fix. One option is to EMBRACE the tournament crowd. Go the Magic: The Gathering route. Setup a competitive tournament circuit, with heavy studio and prize support. Change out your entire model line every X years, and declare old models tournament illegal after they are Y generations old [note that guaranteed churn can lead to cheaper prices, as can regular tournament entry-fee income]. Hobbyists are welcome to continue playing with the old models as long as they want, of course. After every major tournament, FIX any major rules issues that occurred. I didn't say it's the best way, but it is ONE way.)

On the one hand, fair play for actually posting, it's something I like to see.
On the other, *fudge* off with yourself and answer some questions instead of gak-ing on and not actually saying anything. Don't pretend like you can actually help improve the hobby for veterans, we know who actually pulls the strings.

Anyway, enough answering a man who won't ever know my answer.
I used to be an enthusiastic salesman too, now I don't do that anymore. Burn out. It's what happens when you ignore your customers for this long.

WoTC are pretty deadly to my mind- a good amount of free online content (even the core rules), decent product support and weekly updates and articles on design etc, as well as a place to go to get official clarrifacation on rules ideas. And they do read the message boards and ask what fans want (they don't always listen but at least they ask).
Whereas GW don't have fora.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/19/2007 8:27 AM
How many companies talk to their fans on boards like this?


Pretty much none. Blizzard doesn't, GW doesn't, WotC does somewhat, but not for anything important.

  WotC may not talk to their fans much on message boards, but they have other avenues of communication.  I can send Mark Rosenberg (the design lead for Magic the Gathering) an email, and his will read it.  And, assuming that the question is interesting enough, he will respond, or write one of his weekly columns about it.  The man had BIG IDEAS about game design, far more well-developed than anything I've seen written by the likes of the GW crew (much as I love most of them).  Mark appears to be completely candid about why such-and-such a card or expansion shafted a certain player demographic, but what the reasoning behind it was, and how it benefits to game overall, and which demographic benefits.  I see no evidence that the GW designers even THINK about this stuff, let alone communicate it to US.

Posted By ancientsociety on 05/19/2007 6:08 AM

It's funny dienekes, you keep harping on about how there's "no content/logic/dialogue" on Dakka. Well, I haven't heard you astound us with your amazing logic and discourse, so please enlighten us plebs, with something other than "Dakka/this thread/Dakkaites suck because X".

If you can't do that, then you're a) not truly contributing anything yourself, b) wasting our time, and c) making us all wonder why you post to a site you think so little of.....

No, I stated there was NONE in *this thread*.  Please quit putting strawman comments in my mouth for you to refute; try to read what I write.  It'll make the conversation rise above middle-school discourse.

I haven't astounded anyone at Dakka in some time, because there is no point.  But I have been a member for six years, so I feel comfortable posting here.  So welcome aboard, ancientsociety.  I remember when Slayer Sword/GD winners, tourney champs, and old schoolers posted here all the time. 

The "Dakka tuffguy" mentality (GW is scared of us!!!) is continually amusing.  If you want enlightenment, here it is.  GW is a company.  They made products to make money.  They make decisions with the expectation that these decisions will make them money.  They want their fans to buy more product, so they do respond to consumer data, none of which can be obtained with any usability from message boards.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over (whining about Dakka like they are a person [not a COMPANY, like Pepsi or Toyota] with a grudge against you), and expecting a different result (they actually listen to a minority of fans because they want some cred with the "cool kids" ).

So I have a) contributed, b) valuably used your time (though I expect you'll misread the point in order to belittle me), and c) pointed out why Dakka does have worth to me.  There are still good posters (and lots of good potential posters) and points made here.

Freudian slip of a typo in there - I'm guessing you meant "GW" when you said "Dakka," but there are a lot of whines^h^h^h^h^h^h complaints about Dakka out there, that attribute a single opinion/mentality to every individual poster on the board, as if there is some Dakka hive mind.

I admit I also found the "Let them come here and post! I care not if there are 8 million Hojillion Billion of them, this is where we FLAME this is where they GET FRUSTRATED AND IGNORE US!" mentality absurd.
A lot of thought provoking stuff on that thread. Poor old Gav probably doesn'y have much control over the solutions to the problems though. Doesn't mean he's not a patronising muppet at times though.

Janth, I did mean GW. And yes, there is plenty of whining about Dakka here as well. But it's probably a fraction of the whining about GW, and still less than the reasonable complaints leveled at GW. It's hardly like I post in every whine thread about Dakka. Some of them are valid, some of them are boring. This one struck a chord. It seemed...personal. So I commented.

The smartest thing said in here is that GW has done nothing with Kill Team since 2005. Kill Team would be a GREAT introductory thing to pursue, allowing for greater modelling opportunities and hooking players (5 models, then 8, then 12 - before moving to standard games). It would help the narrative aspect, the hobby aspect, and certainly the introductory aspect.

But GW has gone the other way, and I can't say I blame them. There is a lot of competition at the skirmish level. But NO ONE can compete with GW on the BIG games, especially after Apocalypse. In short, they are going where there isn't any competition. Only GW can support that level of "mega"-gaming. It's a business decision, to differentiate them from other companies. I still think they should pursue Kill Teams. Marry it to Space Hulk, make it a starter game, and pump it up. Support at skirmish levels, standard levels, and Apoc levels.

Kill Teams, Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor...these were all great games that should never have been dropped, but instead should have been fostered, built up, and supported. I personally brought five people who would normally *never* touch a miniature game into the hobby via Mordheim. The small scale, affordable nature, and personal touches (customization of your warband) had great appeal to new players not normally familiar with miniature games. Two of those five players also picked up Fantasy armies as a result. But when Mordheim support was dropped, all but one drifted off and never really played mini games again.

I agree with dienekes. STOP the whining and speak with your wallets. Dakka is not representitive of the hobby market as the majority of people just come here to complain. the majority of the hobby is not made up of bitter veterans it is in fact made up of 11 -15 year olds who out number us 100-1 and have more buying power than we do.

This is who GW is geared towards now. The reason Gw and alot of other people hardly post on these topics is because the general trend is to complain about GW and anybody who disagrees is outcast and accused of trolling. Then the majority of posters gang up on that person.

Its like being back in school. As long as you stick with what the popular kid/poster is saying you cant go wrong. Disagree and you have had it.

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 1:29 AM
the majority of the hobby is not made up of bitter veterans it is in fact made up of 11 -15 year olds who out number us 100-1 and have more buying power than we do.

Considering GW's lagging sales I think this statement may be far from the truth. Though, it's not as if GW is acting like it isn't true. I am positive they think it's true. I am positive they have thought it was true for some time now.

But it is a strategy that seems not to have been working. As dienekes said..." insanity is...."

GW just needs to build a better product. Smart marketing will only take you so far and then you have to rely on the quality of your product. That is what GW is facing and that is why they are losing market share.

ender502

Actually, when I read the statement from Gav, I don't get disrespectful platitudes at all. It seems to me like he's toeing the party line with regards to their business strategy, only without coming out and saying, this is how we are planning to make our money.

Gav says,

"These days an incredible amount of effort is expended introducing people to the principles of collecting, painting and playing with miniatures. Many of us take for granted what a wealth of knowledge we have accumulated over our years of gaming, and forget how little we knew when we started. Our aim is to remove as many obstacles as possible that stand in the way of people who are going to enjoy collecting, painting and playing with toy solders - what we call the 'hobby gene'.
"

And I agree with him on that point. For what its worth, what he is saying is that GW's strategy is to make it easier to transition into miniature gaming, so that it is then easier/more rewarding to stay in the hobby vs getting instant gratification with a video game.

Especially nowadays with systems costing 250-600 dollars, and games now at 60 dollars! It's even more palatable for parents to get their kids into something constructive (painting, modelling) and social (essentially boardgaming with multiple REAL LIFE opponents) at a "clubhouse" (Games Workshop store) where they no everyone is there for the same thing, and there is some supervision (GW Staff).

The rest of what he is saying is basically that, well, we care about you vets, but we are trying to make our money off new people, that is our business plan right now.

I think that its probably not working out as they had hoped, especially viewing their recent financial situation, but they stuck with a plan and followed through. Now they need to be able to assess what they did wrong, and attempt to fix it.

My personal opinion is that GW should maybe make 2 different games for each of their core rulesets, or at least have a "TOURNAMENT" version of the game with updated FAQ's, balanced Tournament army lists, and a Tournament system for the hardcore players, and a normal version of the game with regular codicies with all the options you are used to.

Then throw in a little more support for skirmish type games like kill team, and really thats all you need to do.

And actually, all of this could probably be handled just through White Dwarf. The game designers and miniature makers could be free to work on the games, and the White Dwarf staff (including maybe a new "white dwarf" game designer or editor or a team) would then be able to add legitimate official content for the "Tournament" version of the games, as well as Kill Team and Skirmish stuff in addition to battle reports, painting master class and terrain masterclass.

I have always found it odd that their magazine is more like a catalogue of their product, yet it only gets distributed and circulated through their own ranks. If they really want WD to be a product catalogue, why not distribute to a larger base of newstands, and get the word out? GW does not advertise at all, why?

Anyway, thats my take on it. Rather long winded.

Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.

They know what they are doing and catering to the whims of whining "vets" is not a priority. Because once again (I cant stress this enough) no matter what happens these vets still pay and play the game. However some will say "No we dont anymore, we play Hordes or warmachine etc" well good for them. Now all these vets need to do is stop complaining and posting about things that they dont play, or collect or think the rules are crap for anymore.

Go post about hordes etc

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 1:29 AM
I agree with dienekes. STOP the whining and speak with your wallets. Dakka is not representitive of the hobby market as the majority of people just come here to complain. the majority of the hobby is not made up of bitter veterans it is in fact made up of 11 -15 year olds who out number us 100-1 and have more buying power than we do....

I think it's fairly obvious that veterans HAVE been "speaking with their wallets" and that the new crowd of teens/young adults DON'T have "more buying power", if you look at their quarterly profits for the last few years.

The thing is though once you've got 'em you need to keep 'em. When the new players become vets then... you go for more new players I guess. I don't know, seems to me you're better off keeping current cutomers happy rather than ignoring them altogether and just concentrate on getting new customers.



Now this is something I'd like to see.
Idealy, if they'd sort of take some of the best ideas I've seen floated then they'd be able to make everyone happy.
Something maybe like this:
3 ranges of game play Kill Team, Standard, Appocalypse (this does sound like it will me interesting BTW) Each would have it's own points range and there'd be some tweaks to force org and the like to keep make 'em work.
Two levels of game play Standard and Advanced. Standard could be the newer style, fewer option mode of the game and Advanced could be almost another ruleset (based on the skelton of Standard) that has dizzying arrays of options and even more rules to learn. Maybe armour modifiers and psychology that works.
You can intoduce new players with some Standard Kill Team stuff and take it from there. I'm willing to be you'd get the majority of the players playing Standard, Standard games. And the complete die hards would play Advanced Apocalypse games... this might take all day. Regardless the combos offer a choice for every type of GW enthusiast. The posibilities would be endless and GW is in a unique position to actually do it. There isn't any other company that could pull it off. They're not big or established enough. This also would have the effect of putting one of thier core games in every range of the mini-games market all by itself and 40K would forever be the be all and end all of Sci-Fi mini games. It would take a ton of work and I don't ever see it happening but my perfect world this would be 40K.

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 9:29 AM
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.

They know what they are doing and catering to the whims of whining "vets" is not a priority. Because once again (I cant stress this enough) no matter what happens these vets still pay and play the game. However some will say "No we dont anymore, we play Hordes or warmachine etc" well good for them. Now all these vets need to do is stop complaining and posting about things that they dont play, or collect or think the rules are crap for anymore.

Go post about hordes etc

Just because a company "makes millions" does not mean it's being run well or will do well in the future. That's a very naive view of business. Look at Chrysler. They "made millions" and yet are in the crapper now due to poor management decisions. Poor sales for two or more quarters are a sign that something is not right. Poor sales for a year? That is a very bad sign. That's why the stock price has been getting pummeled. Stock prices don't usually take such a huge beating for no reason.

Also I find it interesting that in one post you say that people on Dakka who have a different opinion from the majority are called trolls and ostracized, yet when people disagree with you, you tell them to "stop complaining" and go post somewhere else. Is that not the same thing?

People that are unhappy with the direction GW is taking are "complaining" not because they want to see GW beaten down, but rather because they want to see GW return to it's former glory. At least that is true for me. I want to see them put out better rules, better minis, better games. Why? Because I enjoy playing well made games, whatever company it may come from. If they released Mordheim/Inquisitor again (with a few fixes) and pledged to support the game, instead of say LotR, I would be right back playing GW games again. If they tightened up the rules, un-simplified them again, I'd be playing GW games again. My point is, there are a lot of things that GW could do to bring me and several friends back into the GW fold...why is it not valid to discuss these things? It only helps GW and all current GW players.

Ultimately of course these are all GW's decisions to make. But I thought that the reason this whole thread on Warseer existed was that Gav was soliciting information from the "veteran community" on what GW could do to improve things. If they choose to ignore what the vet community are saying with a pretty unified voice, then like you said, I'll just go back to playing games that are more fun. It's GW's loss, not mine. But for the moment, while they are possibly listening, it's worth discussing what could be changed for the better.

Posted By Acheron on 05/20/2007 2:22 PM

Also I find it interesting that in one post you say that people on Dakka who have a different opinion from the majority are called trolls and ostracized, yet when people disagree with you, you tell them to "stop complaining" and go post somewhere else. Is that not the same thing?

BEEF REPLY Well cos All I am saying is stop complaining and if they are playing different games to 40K then post about those instead of complaining about games they no longer play.

. My point is, there are a lot of things that GW could do to bring me and several friends back into the GW fold...why is it not valid to discuss these things? It only helps GW and all current GW players.

BEEF REPLY Valid point  but there is a difference between discussing it and complaining and whining.  these threads always turn into a complain fest. .

Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations??  Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360  and now PS3? 

Sales will drop and then rise again.  But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect.  It cant realyy expand anymore than it has.  for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come. 

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 3:19 PM

Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations??  Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360  and now PS3? 

Sales will drop and then rise again.  But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect.  It cant realyy expand anymore than it has.  for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come. 

Bull. The PS3 and XBOX360 cost less in constant dollars than the Atari 2600 or NES. That is certainly not the cause.

I'm sure MMOs and other external competition may be part of the problem, but mismanagement is likely much more significant.

As for the last part, GW has stated they keep customers for an average of 2 years. After 30 years, that means for every player that comes 15 will leave (there abouts).

If GW has 2 million customers currently, that means they probably have 28 million veteran ex-players (not precise since GW used to grow and recently started shrinking) that they've alienated or quit the game for other reasons. That's an market that has already shown interest in the game and product and could be very effectively marketed to.

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 3:19 PM

Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations??  Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360  and now PS3? 

Sales will drop and then rise again.  But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect.  It cant realyy expand anymore than it has.  for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come. 

But it isn't just a seasonal effect. GW has been suffering losses for the last year (or maybe even two?) now. Also, if the whole mini game industry was suffering losses at an equal % I could understand blaming PS3/Xbox360/Wii. But that hasn't been the case. Instead, it's the other game companies gaining at GW's expense. GW has been hemoraging it's player base into the other game companies like PP, FoW, Infinity, etc. This points to an internal problem either with GW's strategy or it's product (or both). People are choosing the other game systems instead of sticking with GW. The reasons people are guessing are what has already been discussed in this thread and at Warseer, and they echo my thoughts as well.

Furthermore, I think that it's a really bad idea for GW to try and compete with video games...they will lose every time simply because video games for kids are in a whole different league from miniature wargames. More availability, can be played alone at home any time the kid wants, more market power, more providers, instant gratification, etc. GW says they are a niche company, yet they try to compete for kid's interest in video games...they can't have it both ways...they can't be niche and mainstream at the same time.

I agree that the miniatures hobby game market is pretty saturated now. The best that they can do now is to try and pull people away from other game systems (from PP et al). The way for them to expand as a company now would be to spin off a video game division, which I think is the direction they will head in, what with the new MMOs and RTS games of late that they have licensed their IP to. They could also try to chip into the board game market again and try to go up against the
eurogames.

The hobby market is really starting to exhibit the Long-tail phenomenon as well, since it is now easy to pick and choose very specific game types to play. People don't have to play the "generalist" and simplified type games that 40k and Fantasy are. They now have a plethora of easy to obtain specialty choices ranging from steampunk, to WW2, to anime, etc. We're now in the Google and Youtube age, where personal choice and expression abound and the power of a single individual's blog can dominate large corporate entities. I think the best thing GW could do would be to tap into people's desire for very specific variety...and the best way to do this would be through their Specialist Games line.

Its been 6 years, and its been going down. Thats a pretty long time to watch the company sink lower and lower.

It better turn around soon, or it WILL go down. Doesn matter if your selling toy soldiers or cars, if you stop paying dividends, no one is going to buy your stock.

Basic business. Borrowing twice to pay dividends and then not giving one is NOT an indication of healthy business

Now your just trolling.

Anyone with half a brain can see it is NOT seasonal. They have dropped steadily in the US for 6 years, with a one year bump up in 2004. Its gone down in the EU/UK area for about a year or two.

YEARS of declining sales is NOT a seasonal thing. Go back to school, read their finacial reports and then come back and talk.

What is it that Vet's really want. I've read a lot of different things here. On the one hand, Vets want a set of "tournament" rules. Airtight, not complex, and easy to play with any opponent. On the other hand, vets want more complexity. More rules for skirmish; more rules for large games; more rules for environments; etc... If GW goes down the first path, they are accused of "dumbing down" the game and making the rules too simple and streamlined. If they go down the second path, the rules get more complex, thus easier to find loopholes and inconsistencies. Short of making two rules sets, I find it very difficult for GW to 'win.'

The good news is that I think that is the direction they seem to be heading. JJ seems committed to making the rules clearer and simpler (DA codex). While at the same time they will be releasing/ have released things like Apocalypse and CoD to expand the basic rules (and not suitable for tournament play). Hopefully, 5th ed gets released and cleans up the inconsistensies in 4th, and the rest of the codices follow the DA path and the playing field gets evened out.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/20/2007 7:35 PM
What is it that Vet's really want. I've read a lot of different things here. On the one hand, Vets want a set of "tournament" rules. Airtight, not complex, and easy to play with any opponent. On the other hand, vets want more complexity. More rules for skirmish; more rules for large games; more rules for environments; etc... If GW goes down the first path, they are accused of "dumbing down" the game and making the rules too simple and streamlined. If they go down the second path, the rules get more complex, thus easier to find loopholes and inconsistencies. Short of making two rules sets, I find it very difficult for GW to 'win.'

It didn't work for TSR, but having a 'Basic' and 'Advanced' 40K rulebook might actually be a good idea.

DBA/DBM uses this approach - interestingly more players play the simpler version (DBA) in my experience than the more complex. It's certainly doable.