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Who asked for "not complex" tournament rules? Airtight, yes. Simple, no. Most loopholes and inconsistencies can be found by proper editing BEFORE publishing. Any others that appear get patched IMMEDIATELY.

Other games (skirmish rules, etc.) would be nice, in a "give me more ways and reasons to buy your models, other than just making my existing ones obsolete" way. And yes, they would likely have to be different rules. You know, like Necromunda and Kill Team were different rules.

To ignore the Magic the Gathering rules set as a pattern to follow is foolish.

The game is tight. I dont play MTG anymore ( I recently sold off my collection for around $5k) but I have to admit they do right by the game and by the players. its why its so strong and has lasted so long and gained juggernaut like popularity in such a short time. They basically defined a new way to game.

Sure GW makes rules for the models they manufactur, but that doesnt mean that the models stand on their own ground without a solid basis in a solid rules set. I am amazed that GW games have lasted as long as they have. The background is what i think that keeps people buying, because it definatly isnt tight rules.

I love the models, but because of their design, its nearly impossible to use them in other games. Not nearly generic enough. because of that, GW has painted themselves into a corner.

They never saw the popularity of their games to be so huge. And now they have to address that and make a good rules set for their good models.

They are trying, you have to give them credit for the attempt, but its too early to tell if the changes they are employing will result in positive spin, or be the deathknell for their 40K game.

I absolutely hate the new changes, but at the same time, i dont want to see 40K fail anymosre than it already is, so I have to embrace the new changes in hopes that they will culminate in getting 40K out of the proverbial gutter.

I just hope they dont ignore the impact of solid rules for a game. (even though they are doing bass ackwards. You start with the basic rules foundation, and then make specific rules, not make specific rules based on horrible foundation, this is the reason 4th ed should be scrapped and 5th edition implemented as quickly as they can employ three lawyers and three proofreaders to make 5th edition, fire and hire based on merit, not seniority.)

iIts a good thing I enjoy killteam, combat patrol and COD so much, or GW would have nothing to offer me. Its also too bad I basically payed $50 for kill team rules...

Posted By Hellfury on 05/20/2007 10:15 PM
I just hope they dont ignore the impact of solid rules for a game. (even though they are doing bass ackwards. You start with the basic rules foundation, and then make specific rules, not make specific rules based on horrible foundation, this is the reason 4th ed should be scrapped and 5th edition implemented as quickly as they can employ three lawyers and three proofreaders to make 5th edition, 

  Agreed about the need for a 5th edition post-haste.  Not sure about using lawyers as game-designers.  They should definitely hire a technical writer of some kind for the later stages of development, though.  I'd like to see a lot of the types of rules in the current edition of Epic imported into the 40K game; they add a lot of tactical depth. 

Posted By carmachu on 05/20/2007 4:18 PM

Also the sales have dropped but could that have anything to do with seasonal variations?? Perhaps the kids had other thing to spend money on such as Xbox360 and now PS3?
Sales will drop and then rise again. But personally I think GW has reached a ceiling affect. It cant realyy expand anymore than it has. for ecery player that leaves 2 more will come.

Now your just trolling.

Anyone with half a brain can see it is NOT seasonal. They have dropped steadily in the US for 6 years, with a one year bump up in 2004. Its gone down in the EU/UK area for about a year or two.

YEARS of declining sales is NOT a seasonal thing. Go back to school, read their finacial reports and then come back and talk.

How does what I said constitute to trolling.  In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to.  Plus you guys have stores that run those games.

I am refering to the UK when i say PS3 and Xbox.  Most of the kids stopped coming to the local stores when the Xbox360 came out cos they were to busy playing halo2 online.  Over here Gw is not losing out to hordes or Rackham or other manufacturers because they are not commercial enough for evrybody to play.  Not a lot of stores stock or play those games.

So in affect Gw sales have been falling for 1-2 years here in the UK.  So ehen I made my earlair statement I was refering to the UK not the US.  sorry if that caused confusion

Kill Team should be a pamphlet free with a WD. Or even a PDF. Or a $10 rulebook loaded. And they should get the rules right. I honestly think GW is missing the boat with what Kill Team could be.

With the following systems at their disposal:
BFG (revise and release - rules are already fine)
Epic (just support it - ignore the painting aspect, and let folks play it like a boardgame)
Apocalypse
WH40K/Cities of Death
Kill Team/Necromunda (Space Hulk expansion)

Work on getting decent rules for WH40K and KT, tie them together with some basic campaign support, and voila.

You would have a product NO ONE can compete with, combined with pimping Epic and BFG along with your main game sales.

Just a little would go a long way,
Chuck

Posted By Janthkin on 05/20/2007 9:38 PM
Who asked for "not complex" tournament rules? Airtight, yes. Simple, no. Most loopholes and inconsistencies can be found by proper editing BEFORE publishing. Any others that appear get patched IMMEDIATELY.

Agreed. There's a big difference between complex and complicated. Unfortunately, thanks to the general dumbing down of everything in recent years, most people can't tell the difference.

When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall.

Your trolling.

Posted By dienekes96 on 05/21/2007 6:09 AM
Kill Team should be a pamphlet free with a WD. Or even a PDF. Or a $10 rulebook loaded. And they should get the rules right. I honestly think GW is missing the boat with what Kill Team could be.

With the following systems at their disposal:
BFG (revise and release - rules are already fine)
Epic (just support it - ignore the painting aspect, and let folks play it like a boardgame)
Apocalypse
WH40K/Cities of Death
Kill Team/Necromunda (Space Hulk expansion)

Work on getting decent rules for WH40K and KT, tie them together with some basic campaign support, and voila.

You would have a product NO ONE can compete with, combined with pimping Epic and BFG along with your main game sales.

Just a little would go a long way,
Chuck

And don't forget Mordheim.

They just need to revise a few broken rules, namely the shooting and the bonus skills relating to such. Also some of the lists released later on in it's life could do with some tweaking, but the core lists are all good. And they would all be only minor changes that could be done in under a month if you put one person working on it part time.

Posted By Acheron on 05/20/2007 3:40 PM

But it isn't just a seasonal effect. GW has been suffering losses for the last year (or maybe even two?) now. Also, if the whole mini game industry was suffering losses at an equal % I could understand blaming PS3/Xbox360/Wii. But that hasn't been the case. Instead, it's the other game companies gaining at GW's expense. GW has been hemoraging it's player base into the other game companies like PP, FoW, Infinity, etc. This points to an internal problem either with GW's strategy or it's product (or both). People are choosing the other game systems instead of sticking with GW. The reasons people are guessing are what has already been discussed in this thread and at Warseer, and they echo my thoughts as well.

In the larger scheme, the Privateers, Mongooses, etc. are pimples on GW's a$$.  The problem isn't that those competitors are stealing small amounts of GW market share.  The problem is that GW already dominates its niche. 

How do you grow a public company 10% every year and keep its shareholders happy when it's already the dominant player in a niche market? 

Vets definitely buy a lot, but they can only sustain so much.  It seems to me they have to start going mainstream to grow its base of new customers.  Their real competitors now are the Sonys and Microsofts.  And no matter how many mall stores they have...good luck with that. 

I'm sure going public was a major reason they reached the size they are today.  But I wonder if they're the sort of company that should have stayed private in the first place.

 

Should have stayed private. They can never be anything more than a small niche player if they stay with miniatures, and their operating model is not strong enough vs. more mainstream competitors.

I can't in my life imagine GW going mainstream. Tabletop wargaming is too difficult in all sorts of ways. Also their fluff is very niche.

I don't envy Gav.  If I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to deal with disgruntled customers.  What is he supposed to say?  "You guys have some really good points and I'd really like to enact them.  Unfortunately we in the studio can't so much as fart without getting approval from management."

I think the point at which things really started to go downhill was when Andy Chambers left/got canned.  It seems like he was the last strong voice in the studio to resist having game design dictated by management.  There's no way the current design team could have gotten something like the Sisters of Battle codex released.

I certainly don't envy the design team.  It must be frustrating to not be allowed to do what you think is best for the game.  If I were in that position I think I would have given up a long time ago.  "What?  I have to make a Black Templars codex?  Ok.  Whatever."  Just phone it in and collect your paycheck.

Posted By carmachu on 05/21/2007 7:31 AM

How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games.

When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall.

Your trolling.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous.

Posted By Broon on 05/22/2007 5:34 AM

Posted By carmachu on 05/21/2007 7:31 AM

How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games.

When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall.

Your trolling.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous.

Flamebait much Broon?  Are you honestly going to hold a position pased on Carmachu mispelling "you're"?

As for Beef, as always, he is talking out of his ass.  The facts are there on the interweb for everyone to see.  To say that Privateer and Mongoose are only effecting the GWUS slump, and that PS3 and Xbox360 are only killing GW in the UK is well...

If you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/22/2007 4:32 AM

I don't envy Gav.  If I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to deal with disgruntled customers.  What is he supposed to say?  "You guys have some really good points and I'd really like to enact them.  Unfortunately we in the studio can't so much as fart without getting approval from management."

A couple thoughts...

Speaking as a creative type, it's pretty rare that the creative types get to determine priorities at a larger company.  Those priorities are usually dictated to me.  And that's probably how it should be.  Someone with more financial knowledge than me *should* be deciding the needs of the company.  Doesn't mean there's times when the creatives come up with a good idea and lead the way, mind you.  I'm sure there's a lot of nostalgia by Jervis, Rick, etc. for the times when they were a small shop and the design team led the company.  Which leads into my next thought.

Really, I kinda feel bad for a lot of the folks at GW.  Even though we complain a lot about the company on internet forums, there are a lot of people there who do quality work and care about the hobby despite low wages, etc.  It's not their fault that the company is being steered in such a difficult direction.  The company has quality products, great IP and high margins...you have to think they could be a really nice, profitable private company with some good management and less focus on short-term results.

Best suggestion/response so far IMO: bringing back Citadel Journal.

Gav basically says that vets will do what vets will do because they already know what blows their skirt up, so why dedicate energy to them, but instead focus on the people who need to learn what makes a hobby fun (and it is supposed to be fun).

That's why I'm disappointed that Firebase the fan-supported ezine appears to be flagging.  Admittedly it is done for free as a labor of love, but that's the sort of fan outlet that could keep the vet's fires stoked.

Bout the only thing I can think of that I'd really "complain" about to a developer would be instances of stupid design.

I'd love to sit down with some beers with the design team and throw stuff out like "Ok, which one of you sat down and looked at the rules for Harlequins and Holofields and said "Yeah, that's OK"?"

You know, stuff like that. That's about the only thing I think I can blame them for. I can't blame them for the state of the Ork codex and the lack of updates, that's managements call to set the release schedule.

Honestly I think the company should go private, it'd be far better for us hobbyists.

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 9:29 AM
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.

I cant speak for anyone else but GWs actions are what convinces me they are run by as you say a bunch of retards who dont know what the hell they are doing. That and the fact that I have met actual people who are retards and do run companies making millions of dollars so I know from personal experience that it isnt mutually exclusive.

 It doesnt hurt my assesment that many of the fixes to GWs problems are simple common sense things like not alienating sections of their customer base and providing better product support for their merchandise. Definitely not Rocket Science. Heck Forrest Gump could probably turn GW around if put in charge.

Posted By grimshawl on 05/22/2007 7:31 AM

Posted By beef on 05/20/2007 9:29 AM
Why is it people think GW is run by a bunch of Retards who dont know wthat the hell they are doing. Cmon guys its an international company making millions. Just cos the sales have been down for a while does not meen the company is sinking.

I cant speak for anyone else but GWs actions are what convinces me they are run by as you say a bunch of retards who dont know what the hell they are doing. That and the fact that I have met actual people who are retards and do run companies making millions of dollars so I know from personal experience that it isnt mutually exclusive.

Forrest Gump made a mint on shrimp didn't he?

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/22/2007 4:32 AM

I think the point at which things really started to go downhill was when Andy Chambers left/got canned.  It seems like he was the last strong voice in the studio to resist having game design dictated by management.  There's no way the current design team could have gotten something like the Sisters of Battle codex released.

Quoted for truthery.

Whatever happened to Andy Chambers, it was a bad thiing for us that he is longer with GW. I am thankful that he deigned to make the sisters codex before he left. (even with all of its faults)

What happened to him? He went to work for Blizzard and now he's the lead designer on Starcraft 2.

No one knows for sure why he left, but shortly after his departure from GW, he designed Mongooses Starship troopers game.

Great game, good rules, horrible models and lack of diversity.

It seems Andy Chambers has gone freelance games designer.

Why do you guys say he got the WH codex released? It wasn't written by him, or do you have some kind of knowledge that shows he pulled levers with management to get the book put out when it otherwise wouldn't have made it?

Posted By Hellfury on 05/22/2007 11:12 AM
No one knows for sure why he left  

Fat Bloke tried to gobble him up after getting his feelings hurt on a certain online forum by a 15 year old.

 

I stopped listening too and/or careing about anything that a studio person  said a long time ago.  I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this,   it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered  Ed Asner.

i know the only way to settle this grab your torch and pitchforks boys head to england and to that palace with poorly made attempts to make it look "like any other world wide mini game HQ"  and if any ones going threw CT look me up and pleaes give me a ride there

Posted By whitedragon on 05/22/2007 5:54 AM

Posted By Broon on 05/22/2007 5:34 AM

Posted By carmachu on 05/21/2007 7:31 AM

How does what I said constitute to trolling. In the Us they have been in decline because you guys have other games and manufacturers for people to switch to. Plus you guys have stores that run those games.

When you say its just a slump, your just trolling. Anyone with an ounce of reason can look at their reports and SEE the decline thats been years in the making in the US, and more recent times, most of GW overall.

Your trolling.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Maybe I'm missing the true meaning though, since he's clearly not trolling, and you are, and you've written "Your" trolling. Yes, that's the only explanation - you clearly don't mean "you're trolling", which is why it sounds so ludicrous.

Flamebait much Broon?  Are you honestly going to hold a position pased on Carmachu mispelling "you're"?

As for Beef, as always, he is talking out of his ass.  The facts are there on the interweb for everyone to see.  To say that Privateer and Mongoose are only effecting the GWUS slump, and that PS3 and Xbox360 are only killing GW in the UK is well...

If you believe that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

@whitedragon Did you actually have anything usefull to add to this?? No well apart from being a rude git.  Its winging idiots thats killing the hobby not a slump in sales or bad rules.  Suck it up its just a games for Gods sake.  Unless your life is the game in which case seek help people.

 

Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/22/2007 11:35 AM

.  I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this,   it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered  Ed Asner.

IT BURNS! IT BURNS! THE IMAGE INSIDE MY HEAD! MUST GET.>>RUSTY SPOON>>ONLY CHANCE TO>>SAVE LIFE! >>ARGHHH!

Posted By jfrazell on 05/23/2007 6:47 AM

Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/22/2007 11:35 AM

.  I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this,   it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered  Ed Asner.

IT BURNS! IT BURNS! THE IMAGE INSIDE MY HEAD! MUST GET.>>RUSTY SPOON>>ONLY CHANCE TO>>SAVE LIFE! >>ARGHHH!

This. Oh god, I did not need that image in my head, you evil Dice Monkey you! 

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 05/23/2007 10:53 AM

Posted By jfrazell on 05/23/2007 6:47 AM

Posted By Dice Monkey on 05/22/2007 11:35 AM

.  I also do not understand the hostility being shown about this,   it is like fighting over a lapdance from an vasaline covered  Ed Asner.

IT BURNS! IT BURNS! THE IMAGE INSIDE MY HEAD! MUST GET.>>RUSTY SPOON>>ONLY CHANCE TO>>SAVE LIFE! >>ARGHHH!

This. Oh god, I did not need that image in my head, you evil Dice Monkey you! 

Don't worry; Richard Simmons will be there to clean you up.

Sal.

Who is Ed Asner?? Excuse my lack of knowledge.