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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:

GW has the tourney playerbase by the balls and they know it.


fixed it for ya

Nah he was right, 9th is such an imbalanced mess.
Nothing short of playing less than 1500 points of Marines or Harliquines in a 2000 point game will make some factions work against them.


Don't bother ice, racer is of the opinion that competitive 40k is the worst thing in the world, possibly up there with punching babies and kicking kittens. The idea of balance in tournament scene reflecting in casual games is a foreign concept to him.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

I dislike competitive 40K out of sheer principle, but I spent long enough in-industry to know that tournaments are a reasonably reliable way of spotting issues that creep into normal play.

The idea that tournament play is some completely different beast that has no bearing on casual play is just as wrong as the idea that tournament play is wholly representative of casual play.
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

SemperMortis wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:

GW has the tourney playerbase by the balls and they know it.


fixed it for ya

Nah he was right, 9th is such an imbalanced mess.
Nothing short of playing less than 1500 points of Marines or Harliquines in a 2000 point game will make some factions work against them.


Don't bother ice, racer is of the opinion that competitive 40k is the worst thing in the world, possibly up there with punching babies and kicking kittens. The idea of balance in tournament scene reflecting in casual games is a foreign concept to him.


nope, I totally get the idea. it's just ridiculous when applied to 40k, which as far as anyone that has paid attention to the rules put out by GW, is obviously not a tournament style game AT ITS CORE DESIGN PRINCIPLES. It's like tournament Necromunda, which is as ridiculous as it sounds.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Vancouver, BC

Racerguy180 wrote:
nope, I totally get the idea. it's just ridiculous when applied to 40k, which as far as anyone that has paid attention to the rules put out by GW, is obviously not a tournament style game AT ITS CORE DESIGN PRINCIPLES. It's like tournament Necromunda, which is as ridiculous as it sounds.

It's all well and good to say this when you only ever play basement/garage hammer with a close group of friends. However, you can't pretend that every meta is going to be that friendly and cooperative. Even a 'casual' player who drops by a gaming store to play could face-off against a tournament grinder, a meta-chaser, or even just the guy who brought a fluffy list that just got a massive power increase due to an edition change.

Better balance at all ends, high, low, and middle benefit all levels of play.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Racerguy180 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:

GW has the tourney playerbase by the balls and they know it.


fixed it for ya

Nah he was right, 9th is such an imbalanced mess.
Nothing short of playing less than 1500 points of Marines or Harliquines in a 2000 point game will make some factions work against them.


Don't bother ice, racer is of the opinion that competitive 40k is the worst thing in the world, possibly up there with punching babies and kicking kittens. The idea of balance in tournament scene reflecting in casual games is a foreign concept to him.


nope, I totally get the idea. it's just ridiculous when applied to 40k, which as far as anyone that has paid attention to the rules put out by GW, is obviously not a tournament style game AT ITS CORE DESIGN PRINCIPLES. It's like tournament Necromunda, which is as ridiculous as it sounds.


Tournament necromunda sounds pretty straightforward. 2 gangs enter, 1 gang leaves, survivors go up the tournament ladder. It'd be pretty fun to be honest.

I get that people don't _like_ 40k tournaments. But that fact is its been a tournament game for 30 years. Imperfections and all, it works. It has worked when supported by GW (with official tournaments and everything), it has worked when GW ignored the tournament scene. Its a reality no matter how you feel about it.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

they should go back to ignoring it then. if it worked well without their input and leads to problems like Eradicators when they don't.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Vancouver, BC

Racerguy180 wrote:
they should go back to ignoring it then. if it worked well without their input and leads to problems like Eradicators when they don't.

When has 40k balance, even at a casual level, ever been good? Things haven't changed since the old days, we just get a faster problem to response loop now.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Racerguy180 wrote:
they should go back to ignoring it then. if it worked well without their input and leads to problems like Eradicators when they don't.


I'm kinda curious how you figure eradicators are the fault of GW trying to be involved with tournaments.
How does that work?

If they were completely insistent on 'casual games only' (whatever that means), GW wouldn't have written up a broken unit? Is that a hypothesis you're putting forward?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

it's only broken when you don't give a gak about the person you're playing WITH, not against.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Vancouver, BC

Racerguy180 wrote:
it's only broken when you don't give a gak about the person you're playing WITH, not against.

Does the model have different rules when it's used with the power of friendship or do you just browbeat your friends into not using certain units because your list can't handle them?
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

At any time, GW could decide to come out with a dedicated tourney ruleset with rules that are equitable and I would be perfectly fine with that.

As long as there is the option to use fun/thematic rules for units when not playing 40k: Tourney Edition! I have zero interest in competitive feth you style, so if there isn't a way to play otherwise I'd probably lose interest in "contemporary(MTG wombo combo)" 40k.

Before you ask, I don't care about what the most powerful for the points unit in the game is, rules have never driven any purchase of a model, I take gak cuz I like how it looks and fits how I want to use it on the tabletop. if someone else does, that's perfectly fine, i will just never play them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it's only broken when you don't give a gak about the person you're playing WITH, not against.

Does the model have different rules when it's used with the power of friendship or do you just browbeat your friends into not using certain units because your list can't handle them?

why would I dictate what models someone else brings, sounds pathetic.

how can you not handle them???? I can handle any model thrown my way, and I don't care what units my friends bring. Challenging myself is fun.

we play unbalanced games quite often, 1500 vs 2k, endless reserves, acid rain, instant win conditions, etc...

but we still play on 6x4s and 8x4s with tons of LOS blocking terrain so our style is not yours.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 03:52:04


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Racerguy180 wrote:
they should go back to ignoring it then. if it worked well without their input and leads to problems like Eradicators when they don't.


Are you suggesting GW didn't design unbalanced units until they started recognising tournament-style gaming? That's not a position that is anywhere near consistent with reality.

I'd also say that broken units are often more of a problem for casual gamers than tournament gamers. Tournament players often know what they're getting into and know what to expect and try to plan around it. As a casual gamer coming up against something like Eradicators (or the whole of the 8.5 SM Codex) can be a nightmare because of how unbalanced they make the game. I ended up not using my SM towards the end of 8th in a casual setting because it was so difficult to build an army I considered fun and fair against some of the more casual players at my club. Almost regardless of what I took it would be so much more powerful than anything they had it was like playing a different game.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Racerguy180 wrote:
At any time, GW could decide to come out with a dedicated tourney ruleset with rules that are equitable and I would be perfectly fine with that.

As long as there is the option to use fun/thematic rules for units when not playing 40k: Tourney Edition! I have zero interest in competitive feth you style, so if there isn't a way to play otherwise I'd probably lose interest in "contemporary(MTG wombo combo)" 40k.

Before you ask, I don't care about what the most powerful for the points unit in the game is, rules have never driven any purchase of a model, I take gak cuz I like how it looks and fits how I want to use it on the tabletop. if someone else does, that's perfectly fine, i will just never play them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it's only broken when you don't give a gak about the person you're playing WITH, not against.

Does the model have different rules when it's used with the power of friendship or do you just browbeat your friends into not using certain units because your list can't handle them?

why would I dictate what models someone else brings, sounds pathetic.

how can you not handle them???? I can handle any model thrown my way, and I don't care what units my friends bring. Challenging myself is fun.

we play unbalanced games quite often, 1500 vs 2k, endless reserves, acid rain, instant win conditions, etc...

but we still play on 6x4s and 8x4s with tons of LOS blocking terrain so our style is not yours.
A tournament version ey, you mean like the Chapter Approved Grand Tournament book they brought out...

and yes the notion that Eradicators only exist because of tournament players is beyond laughable.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Every time this worn out topic is near death someone has to wade in with a lopsided mildly out of context provocative argument. Just let it die.
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

eradicators exist cuz they're a cool looking model that gives primaris a melta option, which is exactly how GW designs stuff. rules are secondary. overpowered rules will sell models to those that only care about crushing their enemies and hearing the lamentations of their women.
Rules have never and will never influence any model I purchase.

So if WAAC dicks will throw money at GW for overpowered rules, GW would be stupid not to exploit them. but that doesn't make it right.

If you're buying them for their rules(which can/will change) that is exactly the kind of moron GW wants to buy 18 of them(I wonder why the squads are a max of 6 instead of 3...hmmmm?)...and ditch them ASAP when they're nerfed into oblivion.

lather rinse repeat.

just wait till the next OP models to come out to prove me wrong. GW operates on imbalance, always has & always will. At some point I want GW to sell a solid brick of plastic with bonkers rules, just to see how many people would play with it.


   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Vancouver, BC


Do you mind answering the questions which have been asked of you multiple times:

Does GW having an interest in tournament play change how they design models? Has it changed things for the worse? If it has changed things for the worse how do you explain broken models of editions past where GW didn't have a tournament focus?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mr Morden wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

so what army do you play Ice? I've not seen you talk about it once

I don't have just 1 army that's why actually have 3 and if you had actually looked at my post history you'd have been able to figure it out.

Marines
Knights
Tau


Its apparently wierd to some people that you can play an army and still be critical about the power of specific elements.


"How dare you understand that game balance is actually good for a game, even if it's your army that's unbalanced!!1!!"
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Everyone is complaining about Eradicators meanwhile I'm over here building 9 attack bikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 20:43:19


 
   
Made in nl
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





 Canadian 5th wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it's only broken when you don't give a gak about the person you're playing WITH, not against.

Does the model have different rules when it's used with the power of friendship or do you just browbeat your friends into not using certain units because your list can't handle them?

I´ll have to second Cadian here, some units (like aggressors and eradicators) are unbalanced by virtue of just their data sheet alone. For example one of my friends knows SM are a bit nutty so he didn't always take a chaptermaster or the most optimal relics/traits. Okay fine that is one way to tone down your list, but for aggressors/eradicators just taking them is unbalancing the game, they are just that good. There is no way to be friendly with them unless you insist on shooting your aggressors into vehicles and the eradicators into grots. At which point I'd question the sanity of my opponent.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Nitro Zeus wrote:
i get it but that goes two ways. Note that there isn't a bunch of argumentative threads about the current state of Harleys or other top tier armies. Do you know why I see this being so different? It's because there isn't a bunch of people who spend their time on here just denying and downplaying the faction. Harley players came up out the bottom end of the tier list to the top, when we talk about the faction now, almost all the players are generally like "yeah, we're pretty good now lol". Marine threads on the other hand have these constant aggregators such as Xenomancers, Daedulus, Martel, breton, even yourself, who are just loathe to concede that ANY aspect of your dex might be too much, and will argue all day how even a good unit is "dead" or "weak" now. You guys create the pushback that you recieve. Nobody would feel the need to be repeatedly arguing against this "marines aren't even that strong!" narrative bs if you guys didn't constantly push it, and cause threads like to this to reach 50 pages through sheer stubborness. That's my view on the matter anyway.


Yea, so, I don't play marines and its telling that you think I'm attempting to defend "my" codex.

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Not to mention that it felt like ever since 8.5 got released, there was a post about Marine imbalance in every thread within the first 5 posts regardless of the topic.

This is the first topic I recall noticing that was created defending a Marine unit. Compare it to a dozen or so topics where people just complain about one faction. And people don't argue objectively.

"Little Timmy has to beat the NPC faction", "Marine players usually suck at the game outside of their OP Codex" and other insults are thrown around regularely.

Maybe it is not only the topic but the discussion culture that leads to such a backlash?
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
i get it but that goes two ways. Note that there isn't a bunch of argumentative threads about the current state of Harleys or other top tier armies. Do you know why I see this being so different? It's because there isn't a bunch of people who spend their time on here just denying and downplaying the faction. Harley players came up out the bottom end of the tier list to the top, when we talk about the faction now, almost all the players are generally like "yeah, we're pretty good now lol". Marine threads on the other hand have these constant aggregators such as Xenomancers, Daedulus, Martel, breton, even yourself, who are just loathe to concede that ANY aspect of your dex might be too much, and will argue all day how even a good unit is "dead" or "weak" now. You guys create the pushback that you recieve. Nobody would feel the need to be repeatedly arguing against this "marines aren't even that strong!" narrative bs if you guys didn't constantly push it, and cause threads like to this to reach 50 pages through sheer stubborness. That's my view on the matter anyway.


Yea, so, I don't play marines and its telling that you think I'm attempting to defend "my" codex.


I didn't say you did, you're still doing the exact same thing whether its your dex or not?



I will say it's definitely suspicious how basically every thread you create and every post you make is related to downplaying Marines though no matter the circumstances, but even if it is the case I'm sure you'll never admit it so whatever. It's fine, I don't like broadcasting that I'm a Marine player either, they have a well earned reputation on this site and it's unfortunately not a positive one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 13:49:26


 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




a_typical_hero wrote:
Not to mention that it felt like ever since 8.5 got released, there was a post about Marine imbalance in every thread within the first 5 posts regardless of the topic.

This is the first topic I recall noticing that was created defending a Marine unit. Compare it to a dozen or so topics where people just complain about one faction. And people don't argue objectively.

"Little Timmy has to beat the NPC faction", "Marine players usually suck at the game outside of their OP Codex" and other insults are thrown around regularely.

Maybe it is not only the topic but the discussion culture that leads to such a backlash?


Sums it up, whether warranted or not, there is an immediate aggressive knee jerk comment about them.

I think it's down to simply knowing your audience, the most vocal on Dakka generally are negative with a skew towards anti-marine.

This may be due to years of GWs man handling of the game and player base, might be that this is their way of venting or w/e. Nevertheless they're almost always there, ready to make out of context pot shots at whatever is being said.

I do think this thread has run its course weeks ago.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

Dudeface wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Not to mention that it felt like ever since 8.5 got released, there was a post about Marine imbalance in every thread within the first 5 posts regardless of the topic.

This is the first topic I recall noticing that was created defending a Marine unit. Compare it to a dozen or so topics where people just complain about one faction. And people don't argue objectively.

"Little Timmy has to beat the NPC faction", "Marine players usually suck at the game outside of their OP Codex" and other insults are thrown around regularely.

Maybe it is not only the topic but the discussion culture that leads to such a backlash?


Sums it up, whether warranted or not, there is an immediate aggressive knee jerk comment about them.

I think it's down to simply knowing your audience, the most vocal on Dakka generally are negative with a skew towards anti-marine.

This may be due to years of GWs man handling of the game and player base, might be that this is their way of venting or w/e. Nevertheless they're almost always there, ready to make out of context pot shots at whatever is being said.

I do think this thread has run its course weeks ago.

That's pretty rich, coming from the usual suspects. Before Marine 2.0 came out for 8th, it was practically guaranteed that any thread in general would be derailed with a bemoaning about how overpowered guardsmen were and how bad marines were. Regardless of how well marines were doing in the meta itself (Any victory at a tournament hand waved as "not a space marine army, but a guiliaman/ultramarine/raven guard army") with pages of tears dedicated to crying over how unfair it was. Even when Iron Hands was breaking the meta over it's knee, there was always people willing to jump in to tell us how bad marines were.

If there's any resentment towards the marine player base, it's not out of nowhere and it's ceraintly not "the most vocal" group.

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




So what do the xeno and non marine players really want?
nerf marines, no matter if they were good or bad in 8th, and then get powerful books of their own?

And then tell marines that they should learn to play, use more terrain , find people that don't play for power and wait for the next CA or FAQ?
Because that is how it went in 8th ed, And considering 9th, I have a feeling that before 8th it went down the same way.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Karol wrote:
So what do the xeno and non marine players really want?
nerf marines, no matter if they were good or bad in 8th, and then get powerful books of their own?

And then tell marines that they should learn to play, use more terrain , find people that don't play for power and wait for the next CA or FAQ?
Because that is how it went in 8th ed, And considering 9th, I have a feeling that before 8th it went down the same way.
For all Codecs to have good internal and external balance, and to be released in very short order at the start of a new edition, so no one is left waiting.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Karol wrote:
So what do the xeno and non marine players really want?
nerf marines, no matter if they were good or bad in 8th, and then get powerful books of their own?

And then tell marines that they should learn to play, use more terrain , find people that don't play for power and wait for the next CA or FAQ?
Because that is how it went in 8th ed, And considering 9th, I have a feeling that before 8th it went down the same way.

Yeah - the standard anti marines stuff.

Though I think this time. With GW changing as a company and more interested in making lots of money. Investors are demanding more marine release and better rules because it make them more money. The days of marines being bad because they are a "starter army" are gone. They are gonna have some of the best rules until it stops making GW record money.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Karol wrote:
So what do the xeno and non marine players really want?
nerf marines, no matter if they were good or bad in 8th, and then get powerful books of their own?


Are you only capable of looking at this hobby as a zero-sum game where somebody has to be the winner and somebody has to be the loser? Like, it's pretty telling when the only apparent alternative you have to 'have Marines be overpowered' is 'have Marines be underpowered'. I don't think I've ever seen another poster with so much sheer spite; this is a toy soldier game for nerds, not the national Polish wrestling competition or whatever.

I'd want Marines toned down to the average power level of the other factions (at a general/casual level, not equal to their top-tier competitive builds), then address the non-Marine codices- not to make them universally more powerful, but to rein in their internal balance by nerfing their most powerful units and buffing the weakest ones. Do this in stages if needed, with beta rules a la Bolter Discipline to test out changes.

Get everyone to have the same generally good internal balance as the Marine codex, while also addressing external balance so they're all on equal footing.

Is that really so unreasonable?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
i get it but that goes two ways. Note that there isn't a bunch of argumentative threads about the current state of Harleys or other top tier armies. Do you know why I see this being so different? It's because there isn't a bunch of people who spend their time on here just denying and downplaying the faction. Harley players came up out the bottom end of the tier list to the top, when we talk about the faction now, almost all the players are generally like "yeah, we're pretty good now lol". Marine threads on the other hand have these constant aggregators such as Xenomancers, Daedulus, Martel, breton, even yourself, who are just loathe to concede that ANY aspect of your dex might be too much, and will argue all day how even a good unit is "dead" or "weak" now. You guys create the pushback that you recieve. Nobody would feel the need to be repeatedly arguing against this "marines aren't even that strong!" narrative bs if you guys didn't constantly push it, and cause threads like to this to reach 50 pages through sheer stubborness. That's my view on the matter anyway.


Yea, so, I don't play marines and its telling that you think I'm attempting to defend "my" codex.


I didn't say you did, you're still doing the exact same thing whether its your dex or not?

I will say it's definitely suspicious how basically every thread you create and every post you make is related to downplaying Marines though no matter the circumstances, but even if it is the case I'm sure you'll never admit it so whatever. It's fine, I don't like broadcasting that I'm a Marine player either, they have a well earned reputation on this site and it's unfortunately not a positive one.


You clearly don't read my posts.

Oh no - I made a post discussing how marines can fail morale - I MUST be downplaying marines!
And a post about "interesting changes for marines" where I groaned about Gravis getting a +1 save strat. But I didn't just say marines were the best evar so, REEEEEEEEEEEE.
Or in the CORE discussion, I said "Relax, Xeno. Marines were not struggling." when he complained about the units needing a re-costing.

But screw me for making counterpoints that don't massage your ego.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Everything is a zero sum thing. Someone is going to be the best, and as always with everything the majority is going to end up as losers. The way GW writes and sells their models, there is zero entice to want a balanced rule set for ones army.

Eldar weren't balanced, and eldar players had fun playing their armies almost through out their the whole 8th ed. And if stories about their power in prior ones are true, then they had fun playing their armies through out most of every other edition too. At the same time I know what a balanced GW books feels like, when GW playtesters explained their mind set working on my army book, it was full of we didn't want this and that too feel too powerful, we wanted those things to feel equal. And they achived that.

There were times in 8th ed when it did not matter what out of my codex you took, the games was always unfun, specialy against power lists, you had to practicaly bring a tournament lists to casual games, and you got called out on that too.


But what is really bizzar to me is how all this marine out rage makes no sense to me. Through out all 8th all the castella, Inari, eldar , tau etc players were talking how they don't play in bad enviroments like my old store. How they do not use the power lists or power units or combos. How they could not understand why, I with my bad expiriances playing other armies, just don't move to play in a place where people play casual.
But as soon as 8th started to end, and suddenly their armies weren't the top of the top or worse had a contender in form of marines, suddenly hell broke out. Edition is at its end, but it is unacceptable for IH too be too powerful for a few months. It was okey for their armies to be, but not the marines. 9th starts, marines are the ones with the new codex, if they were really broken they should have 70%+ top placings in events. But when one checks the data it is split. The only army with a 9th ed book only breaks 50% of the placment, and a variaty of armies like orks, harlis etc are winning events too. But we don't see a 50 page thread on how clearly someone wrote the harli book and the PA book very much with 9th in mind. My dudes got a PA book that came later, I think, and it was clearly thought through only how it worked with 8th ed rules.

And If that is a thing. Then this means that there is no balance, there never will be balance. Neither the players nor GW wants it. Or to be more precise. The players very much wish balanced books for their opponets. They seem to love them. A thread about how to fix knights in 9th probably wouldn't have broken 10 pages here. But army X better then my army, nah that is unacceptable. And then what really irks me too, is the moral grand standing. That somehow the xeno or non marine players were done wrong, as if all prior editions didn't happen. they didn't even see their own books. But they already want all the good marine units to get balanced. And if GW does balance them, and their books are better then marines ones, not a peep squeek is going to come from them about balance of their stuff.


So yeah to me , it is borderline un understandable considering how people act and how GW creates their rules, and how the game gets updated.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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