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Hey, I'm starting off an Eldar force for tournament play. At the moment, I know that it is very weak, hence I'm posting it up for ideas on how to toughen it up.

The list is almost entirely replaceable, the only models I have are the Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks and Farseer (with Witchblade). I don't want to go with Harlequins, as I find them very difficult to fit into the force painting wise, and a coherent theme is important to me. Would like to use some Warlocks too, but they are optional really.

Any help would be most appreciated, as I am struggling to make the list competative, but it's early days yet.
                   
HQ  

Farseer: Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune & Mind War.  
                165   
                   
Elites  

Striking Scorpions - 1 Exarch: Biting Blade, Shadowstrike & Stalker. 7 Striking Scorpions.  
                170   
                   
Troops   

Dire Avengers - 1 Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.  
                152   
                   
Guardians - 10 Guardians: 1 Brightlance. Warlock: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade & (undecided) Power. 
                150   

Guardians - 10 Guardians: 1 Brightlance. Warlock: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade & (undecided) Power. 
                150   
                   
Fast Attack  

 Swooping Hawks - 1 Exarch: Sunrifle, Skyleap & Intercept. 7 Swooping Hawks.  
                215   
                   
Heavy Support   

1 Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holofields & Spirit Stones.  
                190   

1 Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holofields & Spirit Stones.  
                190   
                   
Support Weapons Battery: 2 Vibro Cannons.  
                100   
                   
                1482

Some points may be off - it's late at night here, I've fractured my ankle, and my codex is downstairs. These will be corrected in re-writes of the list.

What do people think of the list (I'm guessing that it blows quite badly), and how can I improve it? Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

I would say that the 8 Hawks (with intercept), 2 prisms and then 2 BLs were quite a lot of AT at 1500 pts, perhaps drop the BLs for EMLs, gives you more options, also with the guardians, conceal is the only power worth while there. This saves 20 pts, then, i dunno about Vibrocannons, never used them, am much more in support of a serpent and DAs.

So with the 120pts saved, i would buy a serpent with EMLs for the DAs, so they can pick a target and destroy it with bladestorm (drop, storm, re-embark... repeat as required...), preferably, drop a few ther points to get vertored thrust for its 20pts (perhaps drop a single hawk?).

Honestly, if you're not using an Avatar, stay faaar away from Guardians. It doesn't take much to knock them below 50%, as as soon as they fail a morale check they're gone for good.

I agree that the guardians over-compensate on anti-tank. Drop them in favor of Rangers, or another assault squad, or even Wraithguard. The guardians will usually fail you, and they will serve no purpose but to attract more attention to your weapon battery (assault units can assault the guardians and consolidate into the rest of your force). You need something beefy with a higher rate of fire than the fire prisms, Wraithguard would give you a good chance of fending off serious threats such as Demon Princes, Hive Tyrants, etc. With two Prisms running around, running a squad of fire dragons in a wave serpent would also be a very viable option.

Guardian Jetbikes or Rangers would be a strong choice to fill in  your second troops choice. If you're running a Wave Serpent, you could drop the Vectored Engines on the Prisms, or just do it anyways. It will free up points for a better troop/elite selection than Guardians.

Your Farseer is a whopping 160 points. I highly suggest you shell out the extra 50 points and get Eldrad Ulthran instead. He's a bargain. If the fluff bothers you, take a leaf from the Dark Angels Codex: he isn't really Eldrad, he's your own character who you're representing using Eldrad's rules. Add a spear to the model (you should have a spare one from the DA box) and you're good to go.

I don't see those Striking Scorpions accomplishing a whole lot, to be honest. I know they get to infiltrate and all, but that just doesn't come close to having a transport when it comes to CC units. Also, why an 8-man squad? You might as well max them out if they're foot-slogging (or if you decide to put them in a Wave Serpent).

Guardians are workable, but as mentioned, not so great without an Avatar. You can take ColonelEllios' suggestion and drop the Guardians, or you could jsut get an Avatar; either will work. If you do drop the Guardians, then obviously that foot-slogging DA squad is going to have find itself a transport (a good idea in any case).

It's kind of unfortunate that Swooping Hawks are among the units you've already bought, as they're among the things I'd suggest just dropping. Haywire grens are a nice solution to things with special rules and circumstances that make them hard to take down conventionally (Monoliths in particular), but the problem is that the unit they're on is such that succeed or fail, they'll likely die the next turn, and they're not cheap enough to throw away like that. Oh well.

Vibrocannons are fun, and another solution to Monoliths (which is another reason I feel the Hawks aren't a great idea). I'm puzzled by your choice to field a battery of two, though. If you just want the ability to glance tough vehicles, one cannon is enough, and easier to hide. If, on the other hand, you hope to achieve something against units as well, the increase in effectiveness from S5 to S6 is as good as the increase from S4 to S5 against MEqs, so why not three cannons? Personally, I'd just go for one.

Ignor the comments about Wraithguard, although an attractive option of 5 + seer in a serpent, thats a VERY expensive unit for 12" weapons. Your much better off with a large unit (10) of pathfinders.

If your looking at a way to mow down weakly armoured troops, perhaps getting some warwalkers with scatter lasers is better than a unit of scorps? only problem there is AV 10.

As for the troops choices, i agree that some bikes with a warlock + spear could have some potential. I ain't that big a fan of eldrad, although you could save the 60pts by throwing in the guardian squads (300 pts) for a 10 man unit of pathfinders (240 pts) and Eldrad. Although this stops you from being able to get the serpent i mentioned earlier. Keep vectored engines, that way if one goes down, it can still link up!

Ok, lots of things to think about there, thanks for all the input. I will try to re-work the list, and get back to you with a new version.

I will address a few points with regards to choices I made:

Guardians - yeah, maybe a bit much AT firepower. IF I keep them (big IF) should I go with a higer RoF weapon, like a Shuriken Cannon?

Wraithguard would be a nice addition - could they work as a"bodyguard" to the Farseer?

Will drop some gear on the Farseer to free up points, rather than taking Eldrad.

Striking Scorpions were for counter-charge, and maybe infiltrating to tie up Devs. 8 was all I could afford - however these will go if people think there are better choices. On reflection, counter-charge would be a better use (I can attack the Devs with Swooping Hawks and Prisms) - so would Banshees, or even Storm Guardians with Enhance be a better choice?

Took 2 Vibrocannons because 1 will miss at the WORST time for it to do so. Better chance of hitting, and if some enemy infantry appears in range, it's a bit more damage (expecially against other Eldar, Guard etc). Mainly to work against vehicles, and just to hold a flank for a moment or two, allowing me to focus forces.


If it comes down to it, what is a better choice:

Wartihguard - good anti-everything, fairly decent RoF, bodyguard for Farseer?

or

Fire Dragons in Serpent - I thought I already had too much AT firepower, or is this to target things like Terminators, DP etc when they appear?

or

Extra DA unit - high RoF, with 2 units of DA Bladestorming a Doomed unit, not much should live. But, this leaves me with less toughness on my side (vs Wraithguard) and less high-strength shooting (vs Fire Dragons)?

Thanks for the help so far, any extra inpu on these new points would be appreciated.

OK just one thing with the Farseer is, now that they have reduced his toughness to 3 he gets insta-killed by Perils of the Warp (str 6 attack) which is why more people take Eldrad or put their Farseer on a Jetbike, because loosing your farseer on a failed 3+ Ghost Helm Save (that can't be rerolled) during turn one really bites hard.

I play Ulthwe so Eldrad fits in good for me, otherwise i would really consider putting him on a Jetbike I know this is may be a problem because you already own the Farseer model but you can do what I've done with my old 5 man Seer Council and just use him as a Warlock.

Allright, it seems you have realised the compromises you're going to be forced to make.

The list you posted above is very high on anti-"horde" firepower. Swooping Hawks, Vibro Cannons, Striking Scorpions, Dire Avengers--more than half of your infantry is devoted to taking out light infantry.

The problem is that armies dependent on light infantry aren't usually the most competitive in the tournament environment. You really need to be worried about taking out multiple Tyranid MCs, multiple skimmer-tanks, and Greater Demons/Demon Princes/Avatars. Your only weapon really capable of dealing with these are the brightlances (low ROF for the expence), Fire Prisms, and Mind War. The Dire Avengers might accomplish something coupled with Doom, but it's still not that reliable.

On Dire Avengers + Blade Storm--18" is an ideal range for Avenger weapons. You can fleet into range, shoot your opponent, and then backpedal and avoid assault. You only need to be concerned about fast-moving assault units. That said, your Avengers don't seem to have an assault role in your force--your force is very shooting-oriented. Therefore, Blade Storm is a good pick but not always necessary. In my experience, the Avengers tend to die/get caught in assault before they have a good opportunity to blade storm, because they are defenseless the turn after they Blade Storm. Really, it comes down to your personal preference but you'll see what I mean as you get more practice. Dire Avengers also DO NOT need a transport for all of these reasons. A transport for DAs is wasted points.

On Mind War--This is the power most worthwhile for you to drop. It just never accomplishes enough in my experience to be worth the investment. Mind War is best used when you have a very specific use in mind--such as knocking out the power-fist sergeant in a tac squad prior to assaulting with Shining Spears, as just one example.

The Swooping Hawks-- Keep them. They're excellent anti-light-infantry, and they certainly have their uses against every other army out there. You'll have the most trouble getting used to this unit probably--their light armor and high effectiveness against tanks means that when you want to use them for what they're good at, they'll also be public enemy #1. The best you can hope for is to deep strike behind terrain and hope you're in assault range the next turn for a juicy vehicle target. Use Swooping Hawks to "counter assault" vehicles, just like you'd use the scorpions to harass assault squads.

The Scorpions--Not very useful to you. I stopped using scorpions when I had them try and chase a Tau commander around the field for an entire game. You can either get them a transport (investing more into a mediocre unit than you have to) or just drop them. I suggest the latter.  

The Guardians--Really, without an Avatar I can't stress my point about staying far, far away from them. I've been playing Eldar for nearly a decade and up until the new version of the Avatar came out, they caused me nothing but grief. Avoid them! (they're useable, but you have to build your army around them)

Guardian Jetbikes--Possible excellent choice. A squad of six +warlock would give you a lot of firepower to play with, and a lot of mobility. Doom combined with a shuriken cannon salvo can even hurt monstrous creatures, and Guardian jetbike squads are *excellent* light vehicle harassers.

Rangers--Would be a great choice, in strong numbers. If you field alot of them they cause enough wounds (plus pinning) to do damage, plus the occasional lucky AP1 hit. They're also very durable and infiltrate, allowing you to counter enemy infiltrators as well as compliment your fire base.

Finally, the anti-"dangerous stuff" category. Yes, the Fire Dragons were suggested to take out Terminators, Hive Tyrants, Land Raiders, and basically any other nasty thing that would otherwise ruin your day. Wraithguard can fill the same role, but they also take "building around" with the rest of your army list due to their cost and ponderous nature. I don't recommend ever using Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent (it's a decent unit but a bad turn of luck can make them underperform at the worst moment due to low numbers); but with your two Fire Prisms running around, a squad of Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent would work very well, as enemy heavy guns will have to choose between the two. Using Wave Serpents takes some getting used to, because they're relatively fragile compared to the heavy support tanks, and they are often the enemy's priority target (a squad of fire dragons can ruin anyone's day). Bottom line, regardless of what you decide on, you need something to take out the big nasties when they get close. This is primarily because Fire Prisms don't have a high enough rate of fire to knock out multiple-wound creatures. Tanks are dead, massed infantry are dead, but against a monstrous creature the Fire Prism's lack of multiple shots really becomes a glaring weakness.

I hope this helped, I'd like to see your new list!

Banshees are kinda underwhelming IMHO. They need the right kind of target to be efficient, and if you're counter-charging, that means you don't get to pick the target--you're just hitting whatever hit your other unit. For the same reason, I would not recommend Harlequins. I think Scorpions are an adequate choice for this particular role.

Shuricannon Guardians aren't a great idea. Pay a little more and get a Scatter laser for the additional shot and range. Alternatively, get EMLs. That way, you don't drop your AT capability that much and can use plas missiles on light infantry.

Oh snap, I actually forgot about the accuracy bonus an additional v-cannon gives. You're right, it's a good choice.

Fire Dragons vs. Wraithguard vs. extra DAs: I'd go with the Fire Dragons. Wraithguard aren't "good anti-everything", because wounding Guardsmen on a 2+ is nothing to get excited about. They're anti-tank and anti-big beastie, same as Fire Dragons. Okay, they're fairly tough, but not tough enough to make up for their poor mobility, range and firepower (for the cost) in my eyes. As for being bodyguards for your Farseer, I think having units closer to the enemy than he is is better than him actually being in a unit. DAs, on the other hand, are a great choice, but your lsit doesn't seem to cry out for another unit of them.

As for the downside, I honestly don't think there is such a thing as "too much AT", only "too little AP" (as in anti-personnel). With two squads of Guardians and Bladestorming DAs, you shouldn't have that problem. In the absence of tanks to shoot at, the FDs can always just go and erase some MEqs. Pick the right target and they should get their points back fairly easily if you restrain yourself from splashing out on a tooled up Exarch.

@Jeebus07: Being on a Jetbike won't save a Farseer from being insta-killed by Perils. Read the insta-kill rules and you'll see.

Yes, I know that I will have to make many compromises, as due to the fragility of the Eldar the army has to be maxed-out - especially when not taking Falcons and Harlies - and being fairly new to this side of Eldar.

Ok, here is a new version of the list. I am still not happy with it, and I am unsure on whether the Rangers are worth it, since they are in relatively low numbers, and also the Fire Dragons may have been overkill.

Please rip this list apart again, it's really helping me pull a more cohesive force together (although it's still weak at this stage).


HQ

Farseer: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom & Fortune.
145

Elites

Fire Dragons - Exarch: Dragon's Breath Flamer. 9 Fire Dragons: Fusion Guns. Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers & Shuriken Cannon.
302

Troops

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers: Avenger Shuriken catapults.
152

Rangers - 6 Rangers: Ranger Long Rifles.
114

Rangers - 6 Rangers: Ranger Long Rifles.
114

Fast Attack

Swooping Hawks - Exarch: Sunrifle, Skyleap & Intercept. 7 Swooping Hawks: Lasblasters.
215

Heavy Support

Fire Prism: Prism Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Fire Prism: Prism Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Support Weapons Battery: 2 Vibro Cannons.
100

1482 (18)

A few points on why I made some choices:

1) Farseer: Runes of Warding to stop Fear & Fury Libbies that seem prevalent at the moment.

2) Fire Dragons: Flamer because I theorise that the Squad will do the damage to the MCs, and then when targetting MEQs etc the Flamer is mre useful, as it will hit more models. Have I gone overboard on a maxed-out unit though? The Serpent is there fur mulit-role: it CAN hepl against MEQs etc with the EML, and can help te rest of the army against Hordes.

4) Dire Avengers - Farseer will ride with these guys. The high no. of Shots should keep him safe, and he can use his powers effectively from here.

3) Rangers. With only 12, should I avoid them altogether, or is this enough? I almost feel Guardians were better, PURELY for the extra bodies they provided - I know they aren't otherwise brilliant, and I thought (although I accept that I am probably wrong) that Guardians go better in the Farseer force, as they can add more to the total volume of firepower on a "Doomed" unit, especially with a Starcannon (although I grant they die easily, and really DO need an Avatar to work most effectively.


I tried out a Jetbike unit - it seems rather expensive (Warlock had Conceal), and didn't quite fit in.


I am not happy with the lack of counter-assault, as I have won many a game versus Eldar by getting into CC with the "basic" troops. The Prisms will help against Horde armies and so forth, but what about the MEQs that get too close (and the Dragons are busy elsewhere)?

++EDIT++

Just had a thought:

Would 2x DA units (as the one in my list) and a small Guardian (Assault/Defender) Squad [bodyguard for Farseer] work in the force? Means the only long-range is the Prisms and Vibros though.

++END EDIT++

I thank you for all the input so far, it has been really useful - please keep it coming!

You're right. Your list is weak on counter assault. This is because of the way you built the list. You're not using Falcons (which is fine--I think Prisms are better) so you don't have reliable rides for good assault troops. There are two things you can do to remedy this, allthough I don't really think it's worth it (now that the guardians are gone, what are you afraid of losing to assault?). You pointed out yourself that you won against normal Eldar by assaulting their basic troops--and I for one am trying to push you away from the basic troops for this reason. It's a weakness. Currently, your only really vulnerable unit is the Dire Avengers (and therefore the Farseer); everything else has the mobility to stay away (hawks) or will be small and isolated enough to stay out of harm's way (rangers/vibro cannons).

I don't think you were wrong in the first place to include counter-charge with the Scorpions. It's just that Scorpions are not ideal. I would suggest banshees (I used a squad of 8 on foot to great effect at my last Rouge Trader Tournament--took 2nd place generalship due to loss to demon bomb), or Harlequins. Since you seem to be avoiding these, then you should just drop the idea of assault alltogether. You don't have the proper elements to fight off an assault unit (such as a Wraithlord, Avatar, or Banshees). Once again Storm Guardians are a waste of points.

So here are your options: You can give your DA exarch the power weapon and shield combo and Distract, which will turn your DAs into a perfect "tarpit" unit to catch big bugs or demons in, while your other squads move out of the consolidation range. Either that, or you forget about assault alltogether, and work around it like Tau or IG. Eldar are supremely equipped for this method of warfare.

I think the 12 rangers are fine. Solid choice there. It's always important to have Infiltrators to help control the deployment phase, and they'll be great objective grabbers and harassers for you, as well as excellent monstrous creature killers.

The fire dragons are indeed overboard. If I were you I'd try and keep their ride bare-bones cheap to make it a less appealing target. This means basic TL Shuricannons, Spirit Stone and maybe Vectored. Then fill it with 8 fire dragons, no exarch. 8 fire dragons is statistically enough to neutralize just about any threat, and they come dirt cheap.

Secondly, get some Shuricannons on those Prisms. Having two viable weapon systems on each tank is far better than just the Prism Cannon (the catapults aren't what I consider "viable" ), and it's a great way to take advantage of the BS4 and ensure that light vehicles will hate your army.

Lastly I really think you need to shave some points off those swooping hawks--you need the exarch for intercept but I don't think it's worth the points for Skyleap or the Sunrifle. Neither will help you all that much in my experience. You're better off trying to get them to work with the DAs with Doom until a juicy vehicle presents itself. If you really, really wanted to you could consider a single large unit of Guardians with EML or BL, but only if you feel you really need it (once again you'd moving towards the assault vulnerability).

EDIT: I just realized that you don't have much to fortune with the seer other than the DAs. Fortuning 4+ saves isn't that great, and unless you want to use the shimmer shield and fortune to turn them into a tarpit unit, then perhaps you'd be better off with just Doom, or possibly Doom and Guide. Just a thought.

Hmm, some good issues raised there.

Here is a list that I wrote up BEFORE reading your advice, most of the list is ineffective, having noted down your latest thoughts (ie, it still has Guardians) - it was based on advice on another forum (thankfully NOT Warseer - but it's still not a cut-throat, competative forum) - an so may be a little weak.

I will put it up anyway, but am changing it based on what you have just said. Would just like to know if generally (bar the ever-hated Guardians, they were just a points-filler - not too keen on 'em) I am going in the right direction.

The Farseer is expensive again, but there IS more for him to do than before.
The Guardians are literally a bullet-catch unit, and emergency counter-assault (I did say this was before reading your post!)

Changes that I might be able to afford by removing the FD Exarch mean I might be able to afford a bare-bones Banshee squad instead of the Guardians - this is surely a good thing - but is it still safe for the Farseer to be in this unit?

HQ

Farseer: Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune & Guide/Eldritch Storm.
165

Elites

Fire Dragons - Exarch: Dragon's Breath Flamer. 7 Fire Dragons. Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannons, Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults & Spirit Stones.
250

Troops

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.
152

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.
152

Storm Guardians - Warlock: Enhance. 10 Storm Guardians: 1 Flamer.
126

Fast Attack

Swooping Hawks - Exarch: Sunrifle, Skyleap & Intercept. 7 Swooping Hawks.
215

Heavy Support

Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Weapons Battery: 2 Vibro Cannons.
100

1500

Farseer sits with the Storm Guardians, who are my counter-charge. As the enemy approaches, I backpedal, with the foe at 18" away. When I run out of room to run back, I close the distance to get into assault range, cast Doom on the enemy, Bladestorm with 2x DA unit, and then charge in with Enhanced Guardians.

With this plan in mind, I was unsure whether to take Guide, to help the DAs out (albeit only 1 unit), or Eldritch Storm, for even more damage (because the Guardians won't kill much, they need all the help they can get).

Vibros seem the most effective way of taking on other "invul" Falcons and Prisms, and any other behicle that tries to dodge the Dragons and Prisms. And can annoy Monoliths too.

Dragons hunt the nastiest units in the enemy army, and their Serpent can take on other Skimmers (at AV 10), such as Speeders, or light vehicles such as Trukks.

Overall it seems like I have a large amount of AT firepower, but most of that can also be used effectively against Light Infantry too (Prism large, Hawks rifles, Vibros).


My main concern is that, aside from the Prisms, I give my enemy no incentive to come towards me. Is this bad - as I can't take on his forces - or good, as he can't engage mine (thus win on VP denial)?


As I said, I need to make changes based on your latest advice (getting rid of the guardians for one thing), and it will be built on the list in this post.

++EDIT++

Another concern I have is how to deal with enemy units dug ito cover - things like enemy Pathfinders, etc. Is this going to be a big problem for me, or can the number of shots I put out beat the cover saves?

Linked to this is the problem of Wraithlords in Cover  -will the FD be sufficient (many hits to get round cover, and decent AP to bypass save) - or do I need something else to help out?

Now, I have 168 points (iirc) from the Storm Guardians, FD Exarch and Fortune. Should this go into either:

1) Counter-Assault unit of Banshees?

2) 3x Warlocks on Jetbike with Destructor, to flush people out of cover?

3) a 5-man Ranger squad and a Vyper (2x Sh. Cannon), to push back enemy Infiltrators (Rangers), and for pot-shots at Tanks (Vyper) [or 3x Jetbikes]?

4) Something I've missed?

Any ideas would be really helpful.

It's not that I hate guardians...well, ok, I actually do, but that doesn't matter. I've used them and been successful but they are a very unreliable unit, especially in the small numbers you're planning to use them in.

Overall the last list you posted is a step or three backwards. If you're considering that much infantry, you're going to need some counter assault (because of the reasons I stated before--you don't want to get your whole army gutted by a single assault unit).

You really don't need the Exarch in the Dragon squad (you have plenty of area-kill when you'll need it already), and you really should shave points off the Swooping Hawks as I suggested--they're far too fragile to cost 210 points.

I don't see how the new list (the one below, which is the previous list minus things that could be changed) is more Infantry heavy than before, as I actually have the less Troops in the force - although they are better troops.

This is the previous list with the recommended changes, and room to add more in. Is it still a backwards step in comparison to the older list?

HQ

Farseer: Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, & Guide.
135

Elites

Fire Dragons - 8 Fire Dragons. Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannons, Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults & Spirit Stones.
238

Troops

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.
152

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.
152

Fast Attack

Swooping Hawks - Exarch: Sunrifle & Intercept. 7 Swooping Hawks.
200

Heavy Support

Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Weapons Battery: 2 Vibro Cannons.
100

1317

This leaves a 183 point gap. What would be best to fill this.

Counter-charge - is it still needed? Because I COULD take some Vypers and Rangers to boost firepower, and to just back away from assault elements, and maybe make 1 of the DA quads a "holding" squad in CC whilst the other Bladestorms the enemy.

However, I am worried about rival Eldar Harlequins getting into my lines in this case - thus some counter-charge needed. A Banshee squad could really help out, I could take 7 (or 8) un-upgraded, and a Vyper for luring Khorne and BTs around.

Or, spam-out on Rangers, although there are issues with the amount of available terrain in typical tournaments in my parts, and the typical targets, chiefly MCs should be dealt with by the Fire Dragons.

Any mix of units that you would recommend to round-off the force?

Your thoughts have been helpful, and have trimmed large amounts of fat from the force - apart from the Hawks which have to stay, despite the fact they aren't the best unit.

well, for another 50 points, add an extra Vibro Cannon, or if you want a VERY strong counter assault unit, 4 Spears, with an Exarch with Withdraw (177 pts total) could help... zipping around, dealing with charges from enemies, or hiding and grabbing an objective at the end...

Posted By Jeebus07 on 06/21/2007 3:59 AM
OK just one thing with the Farseer is, now that they have reduced his toughness to 3 he gets insta-killed by Perils of the Warp (str 6 attack) which is why more people take Eldrad or put their Farseer on a Jetbike, because loosing your farseer on a failed 3+ Ghost Helm Save (that can't be rerolled) during turn one really bites hard."

I thought I read in the rules for insta-kill that you use the value outside the brackets for instant death. So bikes don't actually modify the toughness used to calculate instant death. I could be wrong...

@Kid_Happy: I'd say you are correct there, I currently don't have the rulebook with me (it's at my mates house, cause that's where we play) so I couldn't check if my idea was correct or not. Is a shame though because it makes the regular Farseer alot more vunerable to Perils considering Eldar are meant to be top of the line psykers.

I would shave off a few points and go for Maugan Ra. He gives you more shooting and a good counter-charge all in one package. A BS5 rending, pinning,AP5 scatter laser is very nice to have, and 5 S6 I7 power weapon attacks on the charge will make many assault units think twice.

@Jeebus07: I have the rulebook right here, and can verify that what kid_happy says is the case. It's on page 27. (I actually pointed this out earlier.)

Posted By Treadhead on 06/21/2007 2:23 PM
I don't see how the new list (the one below, which is the previous list minus things that could be changed) is more Infantry heavy than before, as I actually have the less Troops in the force - although they are better troops.

Allright, you got me there. I was referring to your addiiton of another squad of Avengers and the Storm Guardians. This is a marked increase from your 12 additional rangers in the previous list, and they are more vulnerable troops because they operate closer to the enemy.

Counter-charge - is it still needed? Because I COULD take some Vypers and Rangers to boost firepower, and to just back away from assault elements, and maybe make 1 of the DA quads a "holding" squad in CC whilst the other Bladestorms the enemy.

DA squads operate within 18" of the enemy. They are highly susceptible to assault compared to Rangers. If you want to run two squads, which is certainly viable, but I wouldn't make one a "holding" squad because the enemy will more likely than not charge your "firepower" squad.

However, I am worried about rival Eldar Harlequins getting into my lines in this case - thus some counter-charge needed. A Banshee squad could really help out, I could take 7 (or 8) un-upgraded, and a Vyper for luring Khorne and BTs around.

Banshees would be best against Harlequins. It's important to choose an assault unit you can use defensively OR offensively--the previous Scorpions didn't fit this description. The choice is up to you, but with two squads of Avengers running about on foot and Fire Dragons flying to the front, I think you'll need an assault element.

Or, spam-out on Rangers, although there are issues with the amount of available terrain in typical tournaments in my parts, and the typical targets, chiefly MCs should be dealt with by the Fire Dragons.

You can't rely on Fire Dragons to kill more than one target. If they're used carefully, you might get some mileage out of them but usually once they hit the table they become target #1 for the enemy. It's important to have a backup plan (Rangers would work)

Any mix of units that you would recommend to round-off the force?

Your thoughts have been helpful, and have trimmed large amounts of fat from the force - apart from the Hawks which have to stay, despite the fact they aren't the best unit.

Glad I've been helpful! The Hawks still don't need the sunrifle in my opinion--you're looking at 25 points a piece for lasblasters and t3 4+ armor--not worth 25 points apiece if you ask me. Get them below 200 points if you're concerned about trimming fat.

I think that your first list with the Rangers was still stronger--the theory is they get to infiltrate to an ideal position, and if the enemy goes after them then all the better, as they're cheap and should be deployed in an isolate spot, so he's wasting time going after 100 points worth of basic Eldar.

Vypers are also awesome--but you have to be careful not to make them too worthwhile for your enemy to shoot (like putting BL/EML on them). I had a Vyper with a scatter laser sneak around the side of an opponent's predator in a recent game and destroy it by itself. Quite a return on points there!

Why are you suggesting Banshees against HArlies, if you do that, your paying for power weaps that make no difference, surely there your better off with the scorps, more attacks, and S4???!!!??

Compare the two units. Then read the description for Banshee Masks. Then compare the units again. Now realize that the Banshees will be counter-charging.

Now realize that you are wrong.

OK, just ran the numbers, and fair enough, but still... The harlies are causing almost 2x the damge you sause in the retaliation... hardly a great counter charge. To kill 5 Harlies you need to charge with 18 Banshees. Not exactly a great unit. Although i do accept i was wrong to suggest the scorps.

You must have made a mistake somewhere. Each Banshee will strike with 3 attacks -> 1.5 hits -> 0.75 wounds -> 0.5 dead Harlies. To kill 5 Harlies, you only need to charge with 10 Banshees, not 18.

Personally, I'd rather counter-charge Harlies with my own Harlies than either Scorps or Banshees, but Treadhead has stated that he doesn't want to use them, so Banshees are his best bet.

its hitting on 5+, not 4+... the exarch is hitting on 4+... not the banshee... (WS of a banshee is 4, a harli is 5)... so 1 hit, not 1.5... hence 0.33333333 kills...

Don't forget that I won't just be charging the Banshees in - I will blast them with the DAs and the Banshee's pistols, then charge in.

Made a few upgrades, and how do you think this list looks:

HQ

Farseer: Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, & Guide.
135

Elites

Fire Dragons - 8 Fire Dragons. Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannons, Twin-Linked Scatter Lasers & Spirit Stones.
253

Howling Banshees - 6 Howling Banshees.
96

Troops

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.
152

Dire Avengers - Exarch: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm. 9 Dire Avengers.
152

Rangers - 6 Rangers.
114

Fast Attack

Swooping Hawks - Exarch: Sunrifle & Intercept. 5 Swooping Hawks.
158

Heavy Support

Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Fire Prism: Shuriken Cannon, Holofields & Spirit Stones.
170

Weapons Battery: 2 Vibro Cannons.
100

1500

The changes:

Lost 2 Hawks. My theory is that a smaller unit can hide behind terrain more easily before rushing out and blasting a vehicle.

Upgraded Serpent to 2x Scatter Laser. Looks better, IMO)

Added in the 6 Banshees. Can counter charge, are held back until opportune moment.

Added in the 6 Rangers. Depending on mission, they can take potshots at enemy MCs, or Infiltrate onto an objective on the other side to my main force, so that the enemy has to send a larger portion of his army to take them out, or risk losing as I hold an objective. By being on the other side of the board, his army should be too far out of range to turn round and come after the other objective my main force has just nicked.

Any thoughts on the changes that I have made to get to this point?


Other possible changes:

I guess that I could drop the Sunrifle on the Exarch, I like it because the 6 shots can really make up for the lack of numbers when the enemy vehicles are dead.

I could drop 1 Ranger for another Banshee - what is more likely to be needed?

I could go back the the 2x Shuriken Cannons on the Serpent - I prefer SL, but it would save some points.

Could exchange Rangers for 1 60 point Vyper and a few more Banshees, or a pair of 50-point Vypers a Banshee Exarch. Means it is harder to contest objectives, as the Vyper will likely die - as it might be hard to hide it for all game to nip out last minute to take an area, but then I get a bonus in the counter-charge area.

Any thoughts on the changes that could be made?


So, what do you think now of the list as a whole? I've finally managed to get rid of Guardians (well, bar the Weapon crew), so I can't be doing as badly as before...

@01777: You are mistaken. WS4 hits WS5 on a 4+.

ahhh!!! my bad... very sorry!!! i would say the extra ranger is more useful... will get more chances to pay for itself... i personally prefere rangers to most other units, os i would stick with th erangers, not the vyper.

Also, your biggest problem with your idea to kill the harlies is that they will probs drop outta a falcon in a squad of six, move 6", fleet, and then assault... no chance to fire at them... so you MUST take down the transport...

After playing a few games with my mates over the past day or two, I have to say I used my new Falcon as a Transport for some Scorpions and then for some Fire Dragons and both times it went in flew around Dropped off it's cargo where I wanted and then flew away again and the worst that happened was I lost one gun, and it was shot at alot, in just one turn 2 Lascannons, Missile Launcher,Multi-Melta and Melta Gun at half range, and whatever else they had for anti-tank and it just took it all in stride, so downing the Transport may not be the best way to stop the attack.

The best they did was when they buggered up my 2"evac point with a Dreadnaught chargeing me and i had to move again and pick a new target before I could disembark, This held me up for an extra turn as they didn't bother to swarm the evac point a second time. That seems to be the Falcon's biggest weakness with only one 2" evac point it is not too hard to block Aassault Troops inside from getting out. Shooty units on the other hand aren't worried about not being able to assault the turn they disembark.

So you could maybe fly a Prism Tank in the way of there Falcon or something, hope that helps.

I was just saying that the chance of downing the falcon is better than the chance of being able to get a rounds shooting against what its dropping off. You are definatly correct, Falcons have a stunning ability to take fire, that added to the fact that if the harlies deploy before the falcon moves they can move, shoot and assault normally, means a good general won't let the harlies get shot, so using that as a strategy is a bad move.

Fair enough, I can see why it wouldn't work - too speedy to shoot them up. Is keeping both the Dire avengers the same a good idea, for that reason - ie, both shooting, or both with a counter-charge element?

I mean, would the following set-up be good: 9 Avengers, and a Exarch with Powerweapon, Shimemrshield and Bladestorm - the Angers do the shooting, and the Exarch provides counter-charge ability.

For best effects I would have to try to work Fortune back into the list though. Maybe at a cost of Guide?

Or, should I just go with 2x Shooting Avengers, and let them take the charge, then pile in with the Banshees in my turn?

Thoughts on this matter?