Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have never found Avengers to be worthwhile as a CC unit, ok, so you can kit them out to be mediocre at it, but at the end of the day, you have a bunch of WS4 S3 T3 4+ at 12pts a model. so having the power weap is nerfed by the fact that you find it hard to cause the wounds, and although defend is good, it will just remove the bonus attack for charging, if its still a cc unit hitting you, they will still bring on the pain. I would stick with it as you are and just try to out manuver (sp) the enemy. This goes to pot when they jump outta vehicles and hurt you. BUT you get a turns pre-warning for that, so you should be able to either block the access ramp or run away. Your biggest problem could be Raiders, with their open-topped assaulting death.

Dire Avengers are not a viable counter-charge unit, period. They are good at charging units to tie them up and deny them the charge, and they're decent at absorbing a charge, but the only thing they can counter-charge and expect to kill is, I dunno, Guardsmen? They're an anvil, not a hammer.

I will have to try to take out raiders before they can get to me. A challenge, but once in combat, bar the Sybarites(sp?) the basic grunts only have CCWs, not PWs, and also I think the DA will go first (not too sure on DE initiative). And I have a better save to rely on.

Harle's cannot charge the turn the Transport arrives. This gives me 2 options: To swamp the exit hatch, and try to blow the Falcon with the Prisms. This COULD work, although if the Falcon doesn't die (quite likely) then it will just move out of the way, and THEN the harles disembark & charge.

The alternative is to run away from it - although the Harles could catch up with the DA, depending on Fleet rolls, and depends on how close the Falcon is to my DA to begin with.

Which is likely to be the best idea?

DONT try and shoot it, isnt gonna work, you will either be in range 2 swamp or run (if ur within 7-8", swamp if further away, you can happily get away.. unless the dice-gods hate you...)and if its REALLY close... swamp it AND shoot the rear armour with a bladestorm.. never know when ur gonna get lucky, them charge... that way you get LOADSA chances to take it down...

This is where I'm thinking that Guardian Storm Squads could com in handy over Banshees:

A Warlock w/ Witchbalde and dual-Fusion guns inflict 0.96 glancing hits at 6" (and then im combat).
A Dire Avenger squad, bladestorming the rear, inflicts 0.64 glancing hits.

The two combined can at least shake the Falcon, and if the Harlequins are still inside this is bad news - as although the Falcon can fly away & deposit the clowns somewhere, they can't charge next turn.

Then, the second unit of DA Bladestorms the Harlequins, that (by my calculations) should inflict 7.(something) kills. The short range means that I should be able to see them 9I didn't take into account the Shadowseer). If not, I can always run away next turn, or hit them with the Vibrocannons (and get both the Harlequins AND the Falcon they just jumped out of).

The Guardians are also only just less effective than Banshees in assault, as they are cheaper & inflict more hits - surely this is a good thing? And WS4 versus WS3 makes no difference when hitting the enemy. combine this with the ability to take out the Falcon, they are surely more worthwhile?

I know everyone has told me to stay away from Guardians at all costs, but can I ask why EXACTLY? When running the maths, they aren't majorly worse off than Banshees - they can take less punishment, true, and inflict slightly less damage (by like 0.5 wounds), but when they die in return you lose less points, ergo are more efficient. They can also be "enhanced" to be able to take more punishment (higher WS), but also Destructor can help even things in their favour.

The maths I was running was 6 Banshees versus 12 Storm Guardians, didn't take into account Exarch/Warlock abilities.

Please can someone enlighten me, in detail, why everyone hates them so much? I can understand why people frown on normal Guardians, but all I hear is hate for the Storm Squads - but don't know why - although I admit this is purely through ignorance, and that my maths may have been wrong (I'm OK at maths, but I sometimes get things wrong, it's not one of my strong points).

I'm not trying to be difficult regarding Guardians, I just don't know why people don't like them and would like to hear some reasoning for it - just so that I can understand.

Um, why exactly do you think Harlequins won't be able to disembark and assault from a shaken Falcon? Check pg 67 of the BGB; it explicitly states that passengers on a stunned or shaken vehicle "may not shoot from within the vehicle next turn, but are otherwise unaffected."

Bladestorming the Harlequins works just fine in itself. Here are two problems with putting this "solution" into practice:

1) What if the Harlies pull off a massacre and roll well for the consolidation, locking themselves in with another unit?

2) What if you roll poorly for Veil of Tears and don't get to shoot? You can't say you don't need to take into account the Shadowseer, because a player who knows what he's doing will always have a Shadowseer.

Neither of these is exactly likely, but they are not all that uncommon, either. Given that if you're getting to shoot the Harlies at all, it means they've already wiped out a squad worth a mere 10 points less than the Harlies cost, you want a sure thing, not something that could screw you over on a couple of bad rolls.

The reason Storm Guardians aren't a viable counter-charge vs. Harlies is simple: they'll strike second. Try killing those Harlies when you lose 8 Guardians before you get to attack!

I don't hate Guardians at all. In fact, I love them (in game turns; fluff-wise, I think they make no sense at all) and field 30 of them in my 1500 pt army. It's just that I (and most others who've responded) are being realistic about what Guardians can and cannot do, and the one thing they cannot do is accomplish anything if they're falling back off the table-top! If you field them on foot, you'd be best off anchoring them with an Avatar. That's all.

1st, he is shooting from around the access hatch, so the falcon will have to move, meaning they can't assult if they disembark that turn (moved transport before disembarkation)
And was just said, the problem is that the Harlies will easily clear the kill zone, you die, run away and get cut down (High I = bad for you)...

...because you can't assault when disembarking from a closed-top vehicle (p62) and Falcons are "closed top". That stops them being able to assault (although they can disembark).

Would an Avatar be a better idea than 6 Banshees? Against Harlequins, I'm not too sure, as the Rending would take him down quite quickly, won't it? But then it's better versus Marines and suchlike.

How about a Seer Council? the Inv. Save could be quite nifty, Witchblades are decent weapons and combined with Enhance might be useful - although there would only be like 4 guys.

Or Scorpions? They move more slowly, true, so would lag behind my force, but they have a high number of attacks at decent strength. However, the speed is their downside as it means they would be out of position to take on the Harlequins.

Or, should I just stick with the Banshees as they will go first in the first round - however they only kill about 3 Harles, and then the Harlequins win in subsequent rounds (hence my reluctance to take them).


On an unrelated note, would Eldritch Storm be better than Guide on the Farseer? The way I see it, I can spin the Falcon, giving me a better shot at taking it down - although it does then mean that I cannot block access hatches, as the rear of vehicle would spin away from the positioned troops. However, is Guide all that worth it, since nearly all my shooting is BS4, or has funky special rules (Vibros)?

Ypur quote goes on to say that they can assault if the vehicle hadn't moved when they got out. Banshees are the best of your options there. BUT, and this is just an idea. A Lord with Sword would get re-rolls to hit the falcon at S10 + 2d6... its just getting into combat, so throw in a EML as well, all for 125pts...


just an idea...

Eldritch storm seems like a good idea there!!! (bit embarressed i have never thought about it!!!lol...)

Really, Harlies in a falcon is one of the best assault units in the game, so if you can do a bit of damage to them (hell, 50% casualties gets you a fair few points!) you've done very well... Also, you kill 3, that halves the units abilities in cc... and they aren't fearless, so cause a cauality by shooting, and they will bollt soon enough!

Oh yeah - I'm totally blind, me. Still, they can't disembark f it moves, nd HAS to move if I be on the hatches - so is Eldritch that great (as it means my Warriors are no longth there) - or, should I be exploitative, and try to get my Avengers in a "curve" so that whichever way it spins there will be a dude within 1" of the hatch - or does the 6-man size mean they can all bundle out to 1 edge, away from the Avenger (and thus puts my DA in a VERY vulnerable position)?


Wraithlord w/ re-roll could work, but a Wraithlord only has 2 attacks, so the chances of hitting are low, aren't they (although I admit it IS equivalent to 4 Attacks really).

What's more survivable against Harlequins: Banshees, Storm Squad (Enhanced - go simo with Harlequins), Avatar or Wraithlord?

The last 2 seem too slow, but then the Wailing Doom/EML could quite make up for that, although am worried about their vulnerability to Rending.

What about a combat-Autarch, using IC to keep him safe, then running in with 6 attacks (Scorp sword for strength, as Harles have Inv. save)? does this compare to a 6-man/woman unit, or to the Avatar/Lord?

@01777: I honestly don't see how he'll be able to move his DAs to surround the back hatch in the first place while still being able to shoot (i.e. not needing to Fleet). You'd basically be relying on your opponent to position his Falcon really stupidly.

@Treadhead: I misunderstood what you said. I thought you meant to imply that shaking the Falcon would make a difference, instead of referring to blocking the rear hatch. As I've stated, I doubt the feasibility of blocking it with DAs. The Hawks could do it, though!

The banshees are your best bet bc of their masks. BUT, a Lord will take a lot of fire from the enemy, AND keeps on giving ;-) Also, as you are depending on the enemy to come to you for cc... the Lord is as good as the banshees against most enemies, its still good against the falcon aso you get a turn to get closer etc, if you keep your army close, it should be fine.


And as they have to get out round the access hatch, then you CAN cover it. Also, do storm if you arn't gonna be putting your DAs there... To be honest, if you run away and spin it, your still getting 2d6+3, chance that you can hurt it. AND eldritch storm will hurt the harlies the next turn as well. hmmm, its a good idea, but if you use it, then DON'T have the DAs anywhere NEAR... and remeber, you could just spin it round so the harlies deploy closer...

Yeah, I'm thinking of taking a Hawks Talon instead of the Sunrifle - all I have to do is zip up (easy with hawks) behind the Falcon, and (depending on how far away the vehicle is) with let rip with the Str5 shots on rear armour or fleet, then "assault" the rear hatch, with Haywire Grenades. Might not kill it, but it will be blocked of, and at the very least Shaken to stop retaliation next turn.


Ooh, just a rules question: Haywires automatically inflict a Penetrating Hit on a 6, so what happens when they target a "fast-moving Skimmer" - who is on "glancing hits" only?


Any extra thoughts on what my Assault Element should be (see above post)?

Still only glancing, and replied ;-)

But with a Lord, thats 3 heavy units that need AT power to take 'em down (ignoring rending weaps for a sec)... So yeah, 'Stealers, Harlies and AC are a problem (also sisters have a power thng???) And against all of them, the Banshees will thrive. BUT, BAanshees are very brittle... as with all eldar lists, gotta be careful!!!

AND... a Wraithlord causes 1 glance when it charges (on average)... so its nt that shabby... and of course, it has the EML to fire before it hits...

hmm, I'm a bit worried by how badly Escalation will cripple my plans, as neither the Prisms, the Hawks, the Vibros or the Fire Dragons will be on the board. So would the Wraithlord.

However, I am unsure if the Autarch is worth the cost - as it would have to replace a squad of 6/7 Banshees or Wraithlord or Avatar for counter-charge. Or, could his IC status protect him, by him going first and trying to clear the "kill zone" to stop the Harles attacking back? Might work on the charge, but being charged, I can't see it working.

Is this a viable tactic to lure the enemy towards me, then blast away as Prisms etc come on? I guess it will only work if I can keep the 4 units that start on the board hidden (2xDA, Farseer & Rangers) - something that could be quite tricky due to sparse terrain in the tournaments here.

I am looking at (about - depends on composition) 20 Rending attacks from Harlequins - so doesn't that weaken the WL and Avatar to ineffectiveness since they WILL die the second they are charged (and they are a fairly slow unit)?

++EDIT++

Not only that, but I can't take a WL as I already have 3 HS choices!

The avatar has SOME survivability from its invul save... yes, the Lord would get toasted, and NO the Autarch (in my experiance) would be a good idea. He will be stricking at the same time as the Harlies, and will die there (6 harlies charging = 4 rending attacks, = 2 wounds, 1 wound left...) Unless you give him a mash, and then he has 5 attacks, not 6. BUT, again, in esclation, his special abilities shine through. I think that if you are careful, you can avoid the Harlie charge as you are just as fast as them.

The avatar has SOME survivability from its invul save... yes, the Lord would get toasted, and NO the Autarch (in my experiance) would be a good idea. He will be stricking at the same time as the Harlies, and will die there (6 harlies charging = 4 rending attacks, = 2 wounds, 1 wound left...) Unless you give him a mash, and then he has 5 attacks, not 6. BUT, again, in esclation, his special abilities shine through. I think that if you are careful, you can avoid the Harlie charge as you are just as fast as them.

Also, your rangers will be able to start bringing on the pain, and the DAs were gonna have to hide anyways because fo their range.

Maybe an 80/83 pt Autarch could work (Mask, Chainsword and Catapult/Death Spinner)... Jetbike optional for 30pts

Posted By ColonelEllios on 06/20/2007 5:20 PM
Honestly, if you're not using an Avatar, stay faaar away from Guardians. It doesn't take much to knock them below 50%, as as soon as they fail a morale check they're gone for good.

That's the major problem with Guardians. You can give them conceal and fortune, sure, but in the case of storm guardians now they're only I 4 WS 3. WIthout Enhance, they don't stand much chance. And two fusion guns shots isn't worth it, believe me. Without Conceal and Fortune, they die too quickly thanks to their 5+ armor, and they start taking moral checks at -1 almost immediately. If you use a squad of 20, it's still easy to lose the 160 pt investment and it's rather unwieldy.

6 Banshees isn't going to accomplish much without Doom--keep this in mind!

Honestly, you're tending towards infantry still. If you want to play infantry, you pretty much need an Avatar to keep them around. Dire Avengers don't last long, and two squads is actually worse than one because your opponent will just kill the squad that isn't fortuned.

Here is my suggestion for your list, based on what I've seen from you so far:

Farseer w/ Runes of Warding, Doom, Fortune, Stones, Singing Spear   148

8 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent w/ TL Shuricannon, Shuricannon, Vectored Engines    258

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ 2x Catapult, Bladestorm         152

6 Rangers             114
6 Rangers             114

8 Swooping Hawks, Exarch w/ Sunrifle, Intercept      210

Fire Prism w/ Holo, Stone, Vectored, Shuricannon   185
Fire Prism w/ Holo, Stone, Vectored, Shuricannon   185

3 Vibrocannon       120

1486 points

I don't have my codex on me but the points values should be pretty close.

Between the Prisms, Vibrocannons, Fire Dragons, and Wave Serpent and Singing Spear you should be able to do a number on any incoming Falcons. Don't forget that Vibrocannons are your best anti-harlequin unit. If you actually get charged, you may lose a unit but the grav-tanks and super-mobile Hawks and Vibro Cannons should be more than enough to annihilate the threat as long as it doesn't start to leapfrog.

I dunno, in your list, by staying way from a strong line, the Harlies can charge into the rangers, kill a unit, get back into a falcon, hit the DAs or the other Rangers, then the last one, without much difficulty...

OR, just dash at the Vibrocnnons and kill them quick... the Harlies are only 162 pts, i think taht your strategy is one that works incredibly, or goes HORRIBLY wrong.

And why no Stones on your serpent?

As opposed to wasting points on counter-assault unit that will fail to do anything, and hence having everything go horribly wrong?

Better to dedicate yourself to the shooting game than end up with one or more entirely useless units.

Are you reading these posts? He has enough firepower to seriously threaten an incoming Falcon. If he's unlucky enough to have two incoming falcons full of harlies, then he can stop one and deal with the others. You're acting as if he'll deploy to make it easy for the harlies to ruin his day. This is just nonsense. If your opponent is banking on Falcons for his strategy, he's just as delayed by escalation as you. If he somehow is able to charge your vibro cannons that easily, you're doing something wrong--and even if he did, the Harlies wouldn't last long in the retaliatory fire.

No stones on the Wave Serpent because it doesn't need them. They're wasted points on a vehicle that is easily destroyed. Better to have the vectored engines as insurance, and losing a turn of movement if you're stunned doesn't hamper the Dragons hardly at all.

OK this one is expensive but if your looking for a viable option to take out Harliquins, Maugan Ra is great and he has 4-5 (fast shot) 36" pinning/rending shots which you seem to like. I7 means he will get to attack first charged or not and 4-5 str6 power attacks at WS7 is always nice. Though he is 195pts so I'm not sure looking through your list where you might get that many spare points.

I suggested Maugan Ra like 2 pages back, so yeah, I second Jeebus's suggestion as far as counter-charging Harlies is concerned.

@ColonelEllios: I generally respect your opinions, but your comment about spirit stones on the WS leaves me bewildered. A WS may be easily killed, but a WS without spirit stones goes beyond easily killed, it's practically dead before it hits the table. You say that losing a turn of movement doesn't hamper the Fire Dragons. In the first place, I'd dispute that, but more importantly, how does a turn of lost movement not translate into a WS that then gets penetrated and killed, which certainly would hamper the FDs' effectiveness?

I agree that your suggested list would be a decided improvement, though.

Spirit Stones are much  more a matter of preference than they used to be. In their current incarnation they are overpriced in my opinion because they no longer negate on 4+ and such. On a Wave Serpent, then, (I always advocate Stones if you're using Holofields) you're paying 10 points to negate one damage result that's 16% likely. In other words, getting Shaken, Weapon Destroyed, or Immobilized is far more likely, and you're better off spending sparse points on preventing total destruction via immobilization.

The lack of stones is also excuseable because of the design of the list. Most opponents will be too intimidated by the Prisms and will direct most of their firepower at them. Stopping your Wave Serpent is just as tough for the turn that it's benefitting from SMF whether it gets stunned or not. The next turn the Serpent can be penetrated, true, but the Dragons can hop out, move, shoot, and even assault in that turn, unaffected by their transport's temporary confusion. In this turn that the tank can be penetrated, your opponent is likely to direct firepower at it, thus saving your Prisms. If he still shoots the Prisms, you were better off without the stones, weren't you?

If my point costs are correct from memory, there is still room in the list above for Stones on the Serpent--I was just trying to prove a point. The Serpent basically turns your Dragons into a guided missile, and getting immobilized is far worse for the Dragons than getting stunned. Therefore your points, if you're scrounging for them, are better spent on Vectored Engines.

EDIT: Note about using Rangers--They are extremely powerful in a list combined with a Farseer with Doom. Sniper Rifles always wound on a 4+, so getting a re-roll is tremendously helpful. With 24" on Doom, your Rangers should be able to put a hurting on anything that gets even close to your main formation. You're better off with Rangers as opposed to Guardians because they are effective stand-off units, and don't require getting within 12" for maximum effect, and produce a higher rate of fire (with AP potential) than any Guardian configuration, and arguably benefit from Doom and other capabilities of your average army to a greater extent than Guardians.

EDIT EDIT: A further note on why Spirit Stones on Wave Serpents isn't worthwhile--generally speaking, your opponent knows that Wave Serpents carry nasty and powerful units capable of delivering a knockout punch. If he's going to shoot at your Transport, generally he's going to keep shooting it until it's neutralized--immobilized or destroyed. In this circumstance, whether or not you downgrade a Stunned result is meaningless. Like Smoke Launchers, Wave Serpents with Vectored are all about that one critical turn of survivability.

I had never considered the Stones being worthless on the Serpents, and (by your reasoning) I do actually agree with you.

I also do like your proposed list, but it feels weak on numbers.

I could modify my current list to make it very close to yours though - I've been doing some thinking.

Basically, after doing some maths, I reckon that the Dire Avengers are actually fairly good counter-charge, if i am in place to get the drop on the enemy (ie, if they've fallen out of a Falcon, say, or misjudged charge) as they can Bladestorm, then charge in. This actually works due to the sheer amount of damage caused, particularly if Doom is involved. This is certainly a great degree less effective if I cannot shoot first though.

Now, in my earlier list, without the Banshees - which I am beginning to think will die far too easily, what would be a better investment for the 100-odd points (or whatever it is):

85 pt Autarch - minimal counter-charge ability, to back up the Avengers - but the main role is to get my army on the table quicker

OR

Another 95 point Ranger squad, to bring on the pain in the early stages of Escalation, and to give more scope for capturing objectives.

Thoughts on this?

@ 01777 - I plan to deploy my DA close together to be mutually supporting,flanked by the Vibrocannons (at a safe distance away to prevent consolidation into the main line); with the Rangers off on an objective on the other side of the board. This means the DA can't be picked off so easily by chargers. If the opponent DOES send the Harlequins off to deal with the Rangers, he is sending a lot of points to take out a 95pt unit, and puts his Falcon in a more vulnerable position, as it's rear armour will be pointing towards my Prisms - and is a considerable distance away from my army, meaning I have more turns to shoot it. If the enemy doesn't go for the Rangers, then I am holding an objective.

I am unsure on whether Maugan Ra is that worth it, as he does cost a lot of points, and still has to test to see the Harlequins - making his long-ranged shooting less potent - the re-roll only goes so far as the distance is so small anyway, and the lack of an invulnerable saves makes him vulnerable to the Rending ability of Harlequins.

Any thoughts on these issues please?

@ColonelEllios: I won't contest the argument that vectored engines are more important than spirit stones. My own view is that they are both indispensible.

That aside, I don't buy your reasoning. Yes, the FDs can still get out next turn, but that is totally reliant on the WS getting stunned in a good position. Is it possible to make sure that your WS only exposes itself to fire once in position, not before? Well, sure. Is it possible to do this every time, on every terrain layout, against every opponent? Of course not. All you need is a sparsely terrained table and an opponent who hugs his table edge and that WS is never going to be able to move in for fear of being stunned in the middle of nowhere. Why cripple your flexibility in this way just to save a measly 10 points?

Reasoning that having your WS get stunned is a good thing, since it will save your Prisms from getting shot, seems backasswards to me. Your Prisms are unkillable tanks, while your WS is quite killable; surely you want the former drawing fire from the latter, not the other way around!

I guess this is quite a lot of discussion for a 10 pt. upgrade, but my opinion is that in a fair number of games, it will end up being the most important 10 points in the game.

@Treadhead: I don't have the BGB with me at the moment, but I don't think Acute Senses helps against Veil of Tears, as it only affects spotting at night, which VoT is not. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) The idea is not really for him to shoot at them, though, but to counter-charge them (as you said), relying on striking first, hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+. Of course, if they charge him, he'll certainly die, but that goes for pretty much anything in the Eldar 'dex. Since you have 20 bodies to work with in the form of DAs, you ought to be able to position such that they can't charge him, right?

@ Tegeus:  You've just proved my point. Granted, it seems backwards to want your opponent to shoot the Wave Serpent, but putting Stones on it is, in my opinion and experience, giving away ten points. I can't recall a single situation (I used to play all mech) in which Spirit Stones played a critical role--the tank either gets destroyed by multiple antitank guns or gets left entirely alone in favor of shooting your main battletanks.

It's entirely possible we play in different environments for the meta-game, and what I find useless you  may find indispensible. I've noticed a general trend toward more and more anti-tank in army builds these days, precisely to attempt to counter the Tau Mech and Eldar Mech builds. I don't know about you, but I consider the Eldar heavy support tanks far from "invincible." I've had my Falcons go down so often recently, I've developed a tendency to cringe whenever my opponent rolls damage against them. Holofield tanks are far from invincible, and many opponents will opt to shoot them just to shake them and keep them from firing next turn, which self-evidently means he'll have less if any firepower to direct at your Serpent.

Now, when you consider that your Serpent will generally "make a move" and expose itself, your opponent generally counters by focusing on the serpent that turn. The success of Treadhead's list is going to depend on having enough terrain to hide his tanks behind (generally you can hide 3 quite easily), whether he goes first, and whether he can time his vehicle-bound "big move" with good enough timing (i.e. expose the serpent at the same time the Prisms fire their guns--if you expose the serpent while the Prisms are hiding because they got shaken last turn, it'll take the full brunt of your opponent's force...)

And no, the Acute Senses doesn't give you a re-roll... VoT isn't nightfight...