Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Also the guardian bomb is good enough for the captain of the US ETC team to run it, so, yeah.

And when he wins anything with it, without it being Ynnari, I'll care.

And what exactly makes Rangers difficult to remove? When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the difficulty of removing Tactical Marines? The answer is never. Well, rangers are easier to kill than those guys.

Alatioc rangers at greater than 12 are at a -2 to be hit with a 3+. They're not the most durable unit in the game but they require actual commitment to remove.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Also the guardian bomb is good enough for the captain of the US ETC team to run it, so, yeah.

And when he wins anything with it, without it being Ynnari, I'll care.

And what exactly makes Rangers difficult to remove? When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the difficulty of removing Tactical Marines? The answer is never. Well, rangers are easier to kill than those guys.

Conversely, time and time again I'm surprised with how much firepower it takes to remove even a unit of 5 rangers. So yes, not invulnerable to attacks, but still hard to shift.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Also the guardian bomb is good enough for the captain of the US ETC team to run it, so, yeah.

And when he wins anything with it, without it being Ynnari, I'll care.

And what exactly makes Rangers difficult to remove? When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the difficulty of removing Tactical Marines? The answer is never. Well, rangers are easier to kill than those guys.

He got 8th at lvo without ynnari. Better start caring boyo

 DarknessEternal wrote:


And what exactly makes Rangers difficult to remove? When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the difficulty of removing Tactical Marines? The answer is never. Well, rangers are easier to kill than those guys.

In what world are Rangers easier to kill than Tactical Marines? I guess if your opponent has lots of auto-hit weapons or ignores to-hit penalties? Even against Smite they have the same durability.

Just out of curiosity since I was looking at this and there are no Eldar Players in my meta
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Army-2017

How good is this deal? Are the stuff in here a good start for a CW army? Around how many points are in there?

 GuardStrider wrote:
Just out of curiosity since I was looking at this and there are no Eldar Players in my meta
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Army-2017

How good is this deal? Are the stuff in here a good start for a CW army? Around how many points are in there?

The cost it's pretty much the Startcollecting box plus adding the wave serpent and guardian squad (0 saving aside the start collecting ones)

Most of the units are pretty useful (Wraithlord not so much but can still do a decent job) and can be expanded for larger matches.

That army may hang around 700-800ish + points depending on upgrades and loadout.

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
Just out of curiosity since I was looking at this and there are no Eldar Players in my meta
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Army-2017

How good is this deal? Are the stuff in here a good start for a CW army? Around how many points are in there?

The cost it's pretty much the Startcollecting box plus adding the wave serpent and guardian squad (0 saving aside the start collecting ones)

Most of the units are pretty useful (Wraithlord not so much but can still do a decent job) and can be expanded for larger matches.

That army may hang around 700-800ish + points depending on upgrades and loadout.

Thanks, I have been thinking of starting a 2nd non-Imperium army besides my Daemonhunters one, and currently I am undecided between Thousand Sons and (a shooty) Eldar(Maybe Ynnari or Biel-Tan). Money will probably be the deciding factor.

 GuardStrider wrote:

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
Just out of curiosity since I was looking at this and there are no Eldar Players in my meta
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Army-2017

How good is this deal? Are the stuff in here a good start for a CW army? Around how many points are in there?

The cost it's pretty much the Startcollecting box plus adding the wave serpent and guardian squad (0 saving aside the start collecting ones)

Most of the units are pretty useful (Wraithlord not so much but can still do a decent job) and can be expanded for larger matches.

That army may hang around 700-800ish + points depending on upgrades and loadout.

Thanks, I have been thinking of starting a 2nd non-Imperium army besides my Daemonhunters one, and currently I am undecided between Thousand Sons and (a shooty) Eldar(Maybe Ynnari or Biel-Tan). Money will probably be the deciding factor.

I recommend waiting for a couple more weeks just to see what the March FAQ does. You opinions may change once that comes out.

If you're choosing based on what you like best... I've been an Eldar player since 1994, so I'm jaded. lol

Caederes wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:


And what exactly makes Rangers difficult to remove? When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about the difficulty of removing Tactical Marines? The answer is never. Well, rangers are easier to kill than those guys.

In what world are Rangers easier to kill than Tactical Marines? I guess if your opponent has lots of auto-hit weapons or ignores to-hit penalties? Even against Smite they have the same durability.

Probably in the world of close combat... Or any time out of cover and within 12". Heck, 10 Bolter shots from 13" away will do more damage to Rangers in cover than 10 Bolter shots would do to Marines in cover. I mean Rangers are amazing for what little they do, but they are still T3 Sv5+. Their Bubble wrap ability is generally more important than their in terrain durabiliy, so it isn't far fetched to think you might find some out of cover.

Will elder be viable if they nerf bat the ynarri reapers?

I'm trying to play without reapers. I'm running into demon spam and ork spam and there seems little firepower against hordes in general.

It took 2 vypers, 3 jetbikes, 1 WS, skyrunner and 5 wraithguard a whole game almost to take down a unit of Pink horrors+Blue Horrors + Brimstone horrors. Sure it was a several hundred unit set up...but it camped an objective as well as 2 other such units.
Eldar just don't have the CC or the shooting to take stuff like that down across the board. Dropping off 2 10 man squads in WS maybe enough some times to remove 1 of those....but the game is over before you can remove the 2nd....by that point your opponent has outscored you and there is no hope to catch up.

Without reapers and spears, Eldar are not competitive. If they get nerfed (and they should) with no adequate rebalancing of other units in the book, they will not be viable at higher levels of play.

 Fafnir wrote:
Without reapers and spears, Eldar are not competitive. If they get nerfed (and they should) with no afequate rebalancing of other units in the book, they will not be viable at higher levels of play.

Perfect summation of the state the codex is in.

I think you’re doing Guardian deep strike blobs, Hemlocks and our psychic powers a bit of an injustice there, but, beyond that, I’d generally agree with you.

Kdash wrote:
I think you’re doing Guardian deep strike blobs, Hemlocks and our psychic powers a bit of an injustice there, but, beyond that, I’d generally agree with you.

None of which are going to carry the faction at a top level.

 Fafnir wrote:
Without reapers and spears, Eldar are not competitive. If they get nerfed (and they should) with no adequate rebalancing of other units in the book, they will not be viable at higher levels of play.

What do you think adequate rebalancing should be?

Personally, I have not seen any real issue with those units in non Ynarri lists.

 Sarigar wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Without reapers and spears, Eldar are not competitive. If they get nerfed (and they should) with no adequate rebalancing of other units in the book, they will not be viable at higher levels of play.

What do you think adequate rebalancing should be?

Personally, I have not seen any real issue with those units in non Ynarri lists.

From earlier in the thread:

•The Avatar needs some serious readjustment. If they're not going to redesign him, they need to at least drop his cost by 75 points.
•Striking Scorpions are in the same boat. It'd be hilarious how bad they are if it wasn't so sad. Either drop them to 9ppm, or redesign them from the ground up.
•Banshees need a point reduction as well. Just like Scorpions, there is no universe where they should cost more than Genestealers.
•Reduce the cost of non-skyrunner Autarchs
•Wraithlords need Implaccable. And probably something else.
•Spiritseers need to go up in cost to at least 55ppm.
•Warp Spiders need to be redesigned. Make their guns get an extra shot for every 5 models in the target unit or something.
•Shadow Spectres need a point reduction. 27ppm MAX.
•Dire Avengers could probably use a small reduction in points, something like 10 or 11ppm. They're not bad, but they suffer a bit from master of none syndrome.
•Reapers need to be seriously nerfed, obviously. They'd still be a bargain at their old 36ppm. They should also lose their 'Inescapable Accuracy' rule on a turn where they move.
•Shining Spears could also go up a bit. Adjusting them to their base cost from the index while retaining their weapon costs from the codex would put them in a good place at 37ppm.
•Most of the Phoenix Lords could probably use a minor point decrease. There's also no reason why they shouldn't be eligible for warlord traits.
•Wraithknights need some serious point reduction.

 Fafnir wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I think you’re doing Guardian deep strike blobs, Hemlocks and our psychic powers a bit of an injustice there, but, beyond that, I’d generally agree with you.

None of which are going to carry the faction at a top level.

They might not “carry” the faction at the top level, but they are decent options for you to use outside of spamming Reapers and/or Spears.
A unit of Spears, a unit of Reapers, 2 blobs of Guardians and 2 Hemlocks (for example) is a strong force able to provide you with a lot of threat when used properly.

A lot of the codex can’t compete with these few units, but, it doesn’t mean there aren’t any strong core foundation units in the book besides Reapers and Spears.

My army has done pretty well in competitive itc settings, at 2k points, with the only Reaper Launcher in the list coming from the Autarch. I don’t use Ynnari either.

There’s nothing more satisfying than having a Farseer Skyrunner solo kill infantry units each turn, using Smite, Executioner and, if needed, 4 Shuriken Catapult shots and the charge.

If/when spamming Reapers and Spears gets nerfed into oblivion, there are other options available that are pretty balanced. People will just be upset because there won’t be a “spam 1 unit, win 90% of your games” option.

 admironheart wrote:
Will elder be viable if they nerf bat the ynarri reapers?

I'm trying to play without reapers. I'm running into demon spam and ork spam and there seems little firepower against hordes in general.

It took 2 vypers, 3 jetbikes, 1 WS, skyrunner and 5 wraithguard a whole game almost to take down a unit of Pink horrors+Blue Horrors + Brimstone horrors. Sure it was a several hundred unit set up...but it camped an objective as well as 2 other such units.
Eldar just don't have the CC or the shooting to take stuff like that down across the board. Dropping off 2 10 man squads in WS maybe enough some times to remove 1 of those....but the game is over before you can remove the 2nd....by that point your opponent has outscored you and there is no hope to catch up.

Each unit can only hold one objective, so there should have been other objectives to take. Assuming its a 6 objective game, you have three that are up for grabs.

Also, if he had three squads of pink horrors, that's a pretty good number of points. He has to pay points for the blue horrors and brimstones being kept as reinforcements, so you had a bit of an advantage as to what was on the field. How big are these games and what sizes are his horror units?

Kdash wrote:
If/when spamming Reapers and Spears gets nerfed into oblivion, there are other options available that are pretty balanced. People will just be upset because there won’t be a “spam 1 unit, win 90% of your games” option.

This. Shadow Specters used to be the king of Eldar/Ynnari until their point increase knocked them down. I still find them incredibly useful in a list even at 33 points each. When Reapers/Spears go down, the next unit up will appear.

He had a demon prince some tzeentch flamers (which died easily) some 4 wound? models that were tough to kill and a greater demon of Tzentch. a bunch of psykers. and the screamers.

He quickly overloaded the 4th objective and that put him up 4 to 2 and I was in the midst of cc as his fast attack units were in my face quickly. I tried to remove 1 unit of horrors...but it took forever.
It was funny my warlock cast Enervate on his pink horrors.....they needed a 7 to wound the wraithguard....so he pretty much did nothing in hth.

mokoshkana wrote:

Each unit can only hold one objective,

You sure about that?

 admironheart wrote:
He had a demon prince some tzeentch flamers (which died easily) some 4 wound? models that were tough to kill and a greater demon of Tzentch. a bunch of psykers. and the screamers.

He quickly overloaded the 4th objective and that put him up 4 to 2 and I was in the midst of cc as his fast attack units were in my face quickly. I tried to remove 1 unit of horrors...but it took forever.
It was funny my warlock cast Enervate on his pink horrors.....they needed a 7 to wound the wraithguard....so he pretty much did nothing in hth.

Playing arm chair general here, the first thing you need to know is how many reinforcement points your opponent has set aside to use in order to spawn horrors and/or brimstones. Then you need to do just enough damage on one unit to ensure he expends all of his reinforcement points. As he reinforces the main unit, its going to grow, resulting in more firepower needed to remove it. Once he is out of points, those other units become easier to kill as they cannot be reinforced.

What is your normal list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Each unit can only hold one objective,

You sure about that?

Don't have the rule book in front of me, but yeah I am pretty sure a unit can only hold one objective. I'm not sure if a unit can contest other objectives while its holding one, but assuming they cannot, a MASSIVE unit could potentially surround additional objectives and prevent another unit from getting within 3" inches, which essentially contests it.

Edit: My statement above is incorrect

 DarknessEternal wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Each unit can only hold one objective,

You sure about that?

Seconded. I just played against a Nid player and his 29 termagaunt strong unit held 3 objectives...I know in ITC they only count for one board quarter for recon but I couldn't find anything in the rules about them only being able to hold one objective.

If you can find this it would be meta-shifting at my local and super helpful!

mokoshkana wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Each unit can only hold one objective,

You sure about that?

Don't have the rule book in front of me, but yeah I am pretty sure a unit can only hold one objective. I'm not sure if a unit can contest other objectives while its holding one, but assuming they cannot, a MASSIVE unit could potentially surround additional objectives and prevent another unit from getting within 3" inches, which essentially contests it.

You are incorrect - there is 0 restriction on how many objectives a unit can hold or contest.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Each unit can only hold one objective,

You sure about that?

Don't have the rule book in front of me, but yeah I am pretty sure a unit can only hold one objective. I'm not sure if a unit can contest other objectives while its holding one, but assuming they cannot, a MASSIVE unit could potentially surround additional objectives and prevent another unit from getting within 3" inches, which essentially contests it.

You are incorrect - there is 0 restriction on how many objectives a unit can hold or contest.

Well shucks, I guess I was wrong on the internet. I'll just have to double check my information next time to ensure I get it right. Apologies for the false hope I gave anyone.

The multiple 100 Horror units meta... Just begs to give rise to the Swooping Hawk spam meta!

Hawks are a very solid unit with high mobility and high rate of fire. Their shots lack strength, but they do reasonable work on their own and synergize especially well with Autarch and Farseer support. Guardians do tiny a bit more damage vs hordes per point (but slightly worse vs Doomed hordes) and are generally more effective as targets get tougher. However, Hawks do their damage from a much safer distance and come with their own delivery method.

Goobi2 wrote:
The multiple 100 Horror units meta... Just begs to give rise to the Swooping Hawk spam meta!

Hawks are a very solid unit with high mobility and high rate of fire. Their shots lack strength, but they do reasonable work on their own and synergize especially well with Autarch and Farseer support. Guardians do tiny a bit more damage vs hordes per point (but slightly worse vs Doomed hordes) and are generally more effective as targets get tougher. However, Hawks do their damage from a much safer distance and come with their own delivery method.

I run a unit of 6-7 and like them a lot. I tend to see chaff units on the table and their mobility and range makes for a decent unit. Definitely worth the 100 or so points.

mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
If/when spamming Reapers and Spears gets nerfed into oblivion, there are other options available that are pretty balanced. People will just be upset because there won’t be a “spam 1 unit, win 90% of your games” option.

This. Shadow Specters used to be the king of Eldar/Ynnari until their point increase knocked them down. I still find them incredibly useful in a list even at 33 points each. When Reapers/Spears go down, the next unit up will appear.

Post Ynnari nerf, Spectres were already worse than Spears at 23ppm.

Hoping that GW recognizes that pure craftworlds are not OP and finds a way to nerf things so it only majorly effects Ynnari.

Reduce max squad size (maybe in Ynnari only?), maybe bump the tempest launcher up a few points and bring dark reapers back to their original point cost.

Shining spears are probably fine where they're at outside of Ynnari. Windriders need a point reduction to make them worth bringing and the scatter laser should probably be rapid fire or something similar to give us (and saim-hann specifically) some better anti-horde.

Do we know when the March update will drop? Is a whole redesign of certain units even possible or likely? I thought it would be more about point changes.

Tahnir wrote:
Do we know when the March update will drop? Is a whole redesign of certain units even possible or likely? I thought it would be more about point changes.

It's quite the opposite. Rule changes are a given, but it's unclear if there will be point changes.

Warhammer Community wrote:2: Big, Twice-a-year FAQs
Major game-wide questions will be answered on a biannual basis each March and September when a wider set of FAQ updates will be released. These will be focused on anything that might emerge as more codexes, and thus more unusual interactions, make their way into the game and will address issues across multiple factions and publications. We’ll also use these to address balance issues in the game, so these might include a few changes to rules for overly powerful, or underrepresented units.

From this post: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/