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So, without spamming Dark Reapers, how does a decent ("decent", not "tournament winning") Footdar-list look these days?

Any fun Stratagem/Relic/Psychic Power/unit-combos other than Guardian blobs in the Webway and Quickened Bowling Banshee's?

Hemlocks, Shining Spears, Guardians, couple of Psykers and Wave Serpents would be my answer to that question.

Kdash wrote:
Hemlocks, Shining Spears, Guardians, couple of Psykers and Wave Serpents would be my answer to that question.

I'm not really sure if Hemlocks and Shining Spears fit in a "footdar"-list.

I think without reapers, and without vehicles, you're gonna be hard pressed to make a competitive footdar list. Viable, maybe, but competitive I dunno. I want to think wraithlords as heavy support, guardians webwaying in, and banshees running up using cover might be best.

You could substitute the banshees for wraithguard of a given variant I imagine. Swooping hawks would be very useful too.

I've been contemplating the avatar in a footdar list, but it usually just revolves around guardian spam... that's the best I come up with for him.

 MinscS2 wrote:
So, without spamming Dark Reapers, how does a decent ("decent", not "tournament winning") Footdar-list look these days?

It looks non-existant.

What does a decent vehicle-focused list look like? I'm surprised people don't ever talk about Fire Prisms. Aside from having to spend 1 CP every round on Linked Fire to get the best use out of them, they're really solid IMO. Is there something I'm missing? They're overshadowed by Reapers currently, but then everything in the entire game is.

Atlatl Jones wrote:
What does a decent vehicle-focused list look like? I'm surprised people don't ever talk about Fire Prisms. Aside from having to spend 1 CP every round on Linked Fire to get the best use out of them, they're really solid IMO. Is there something I'm missing? They're overshadowed by Reapers currently, but then everything in the entire game is.

2-3 Fire Prisms are good. Wave Serpents + flyers are solid too. Those backed by some cheap Ranger units and psykers is how I play Eldar. Sometimes add in a Scorpion Super-heavy. All Alaitoc obviously.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Hemlocks, Shining Spears, Guardians, couple of Psykers and Wave Serpents would be my answer to that question.

I'm not really sure if Hemlocks and Shining Spears fit in a "footdar"-list.

Oops, completely ignored the foot-dar bit

Atlatl Jones wrote:
What does a decent vehicle-focused list look like? I'm surprised people don't ever talk about Fire Prisms. Aside from having to spend 1 CP every round on Linked Fire to get the best use out of them, they're really solid IMO. Is there something I'm missing? They're overshadowed by Reapers currently, but then everything in the entire game is.

I just posted a vehicle heavy list in the list Forum

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
So, without spamming Dark Reapers, how does a decent ("decent", not "tournament winning") Footdar-list look these days?

It looks non-existant.

This is disingenuous. With Webway Strike opens up a lot of options for a footdar Army. As Minsc is only looking for a decent list, not necessarily a tournament winning list, I think footdar can fit the bill. Putting 20 man guardian blobs or Wraithcannon Wraithguard in the webway can be incredibly potent. One might have to wait until turn two in order to clear out some space to get the WG in the opponent's back lines to take out the big guns, but one could also take a Warlock and attempt to use quicken to move some WG into the proper position on turn one.

Limiting an army to foot only is definitely not the best idea though. Having access to Wave Serpents, Crimson Hunters/Hemlocks, and even jet bikes for jumping on objectives is key to Aeldari success.

I think a lot of the issue with army strength comes down to people's definitions of competitive. To some it means being able to beat every army and win tournaments, and to others it merely means having the ability to win some games.

That being said. Guardians have been the backbone of my foot based eldar lists. And they can be extremely competitive. Backed up by some combat characters and either or both of the avatars and some psychics.

I win a lot of games relying on guardians.

OrdoSean wrote:
That being said. Guardians have been the backbone of my foot based eldar lists. And they can be extremely competitive. Backed up by some combat characters and either or both of the avatars and some psychics.

I win a lot of games relying on guardians.

How do you use them? I've been thoroughly unimpressed by them so far. They have terrible range and are made of tissue paper.

Atlatl Jones wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:
That being said. Guardians have been the backbone of my foot based eldar lists. And they can be extremely competitive. Backed up by some combat characters and either or both of the avatars and some psychics.

I win a lot of games relying on guardians.

How do you use them? I've been thoroughly unimpressed by them so far. They have terrible range and are made of tissue paper.

Guardian Defenders are glasscannons. 2 BS3+ S4 'rending' shots on 8ppm troops is great.

Good delivery-methods seems to be Webway Strike and on foot with Quicken (which gives them a 14"+2D6" move.)
Then Celestial Shield and/or Fire and Fade as defensive stratagems to keep them alive.

Ironically, despite having "defenders" in their name, they are best used as shock-troops.

I only own 40 Defenders atm, otherwise I would play with 60 of them in my next game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
So, without spamming Dark Reapers, how does a decent ("decent", not "tournament winning") Footdar-list look these days?

It looks non-existant.

No addressing the pure eldar guardian focused list in the top 8 of LVO huh?

A 20man guardian bomb is wonderful for webway strike. You just need some CP to back them up in the aftermath or enough psychic support (doom/jinx on target) to make sure there is no aftermath in the 1st place
The problem with footdar lists seems to me to be the fact that melee aspects in general are inefficient outside shining spears (which aren't on foot, to be concise), so due to lower mobility you need characters like asurmen or maugan ra to get counter strike units.

This is the 2000 pts Alaitoc Footdar (mostly) list I'm gonna use in my next game:

-HQ-

Autarch Skyrunner (Warlord: Puritanical Leader.)
Twin Shuriken Catapults, Laserlance, Banshee Mask, Shimmerplume, Fusion Gun.

Farseer
Singing Spear, Doom, Guide.

Warlock
Protect/Jinx.

Warlock
Empower/Enervate.

Warlock
Quicken/Restrain.

Warlock
Enhance/Drain.

-Troops-

20 Guardian Defenders

20 Guardian Defenders

5x Rangers

5x Rangers

5x Rangers

5x Rangers

-Elites-

10x Howling Banshees
Executioner.

10x Howling Banshees
Executioner.

9x Striking Scorpions
Scorpions Claw.

-Fast Attack-

10x Swooping Hawks
Hawk's Talon

8x Warp Spiders
Dual Spinner

8x Shining Spears
Star Lance.

-Heavy Support-

5x Dark Reapers

2000/2000 pts.
117 infantry, 9 jetbikes.

11 CP in total (2 battalions, 1 outrider detachment, 1 vanguard detachment.)

-3 CP for Webway Strike on the two Guardian squads.
-1 CP for Matchless Agility on one of the Howling Banshee squads.
-1 CP for Seer Council to increase the chance of Quicken getting off on the other Howling Banshee squad.

6 CP left for various Stratagems.

Considering dropping 1 Shining Spear in order to upgrade 3 of the Warlocks to Spirit Seers.
Thoughts?

That's four detachments. Is that allowed where you play? Normally 2k lists are limited to three, in competitions anyway.

If you make three squads of Reapers, that could be a Brigade. 3x3 would do it, just get the extra points by reducing the squad sizes on some of the other aspect warriors.

I'd split the Scorpions into two squads of five, to maximize utility and double up on exarchs with scorpion claws. I'd also increase the Shining Spears to the maximum of 9, because shining spears are nasty en masse.

Mind you, that list is so unlike what I've seen at the table that I have no idea how it will play!

That list should really be amended to form a brigade. Trim the fat on some of those aspect units in order to plug in two more squads in the heavy detachment. Additionally, scrap one of the warlocks to upgrade the remaining three to spiritseers if that's your fancy.

I actually thought that Dark Reapers had a min. squadsize of 5, but I see now that it's 3.
Might consider getting 3x3 instead and dropping 2 Warlocks, 1 Striking Scorpion, 1 Warpspider and the Singing Spear on the Farseer.

On the flipside I'd only gain 1 CP out of it, while loosing Enhance and Empower. I'll consider it.

stratigo wrote:

No addressing the pure eldar guardian focused list in the top 8 of LVO huh?

Of course not. LVO was a farce. My opinion of that organization and the people who run it are old hat by now.

I'm hopeful when the Drukhari codex drops I can do some weird hybrid Iyanden meets pirates meets space clown list.

Does anyone have any experience of a heavy Wraith core?

Zond wrote:
I'm hopeful when the Drukhari codex drops I can do some weird hybrid Iyanden meets pirates meets space clown list.

Does anyone have any experience of a heavy Wraith core?

I ran some axe-blades and dscythe guard against some deathguard the other weekend. With Ulthwe and protect the blades managed to hold up two big units of zombies and typhus for three turns and kill typhus when doomed. Holding his core force in the center allowed me to rack up points for the win so I'd reccommend them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

stratigo wrote:

No addressing the pure eldar guardian focused list in the top 8 of LVO huh?

Of course not. LVO was a farce. My opinion of that organization and the people who run it are old hat by now.

lul.

"what? Someone did well with things I think are bad? Well it totally doesn't count at all. Nyah"

stratigo wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

stratigo wrote:

No addressing the pure eldar guardian focused list in the top 8 of LVO huh?

Of course not. LVO was a farce. My opinion of that organization and the people who run it are old hat by now.

lul.

"what? Someone did well with things I think are bad? Well it totally doesn't count at all. Nyah"

I think it has a bit to do with how the format supports certain builds over others. The ''Top Tier'' units shift a little bit between armies depending on the format. For instance, people are less likely to run Flying Hive Tyrants (which generally counter things like Dark Reapers rather well) since they are worth so many points to kill. The Primary/Secondary point format of the LVO strongly favored certain armies that were able to build in a way to avoid giving up many secondary points. In essence, it's a whole new meta.

You would still take generally good units, of course, but the counters you would expect also change.

Atlatl Jones wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:
That being said. Guardians have been the backbone of my foot based eldar lists. And they can be extremely competitive. Backed up by some combat characters and either or both of the avatars and some psychics.

I win a lot of games relying on guardians.

How do you use them? I've been thoroughly unimpressed by them so far. They have terrible range and are made of tissue paper.

I deepstrike one to two units of them. Two mainly in my more competitive lists. Like for lvo. They can kill anything in the game with shooting and then try to quicken forward to tie people up. They are very tough to remove.

Generally I run them as Ynarri for the higher damage output. But they still do well in the games I’ve run them as just craftworld. And their durability is the same either way. It’s really tough to remove them if you stack some powers like protect and fortune on them. They can stand up to entire armies shooting them from time to time.

Goobi2 wrote:

I think it has a bit to do with how the format supports certain builds over others. The ''Top Tier'' units shift a little bit between armies depending on the format. For instance, people are less likely to run Flying Hive Tyrants (which generally counter things like Dark Reapers rather well) since they are worth so many points to kill. The Primary/Secondary point format of the LVO strongly favored certain armies that were able to build in a way to avoid giving up many secondary points. In essence, it's a whole new meta.

You would still take generally good units, of course, but the counters you would expect also change.

And then also throw in a dash of the people running it are unpleasant, 2 turn games, encouraged slow play and cheating, etc.

 DarknessEternal wrote:


2 turn games

This is why you can't ever trust tournaments from a balance standpoint. The game wasn't designed to be shorter than the prescribed 5-7 turns, and so many army styles suffer when you try to shoehorn a game into 2-2.5 hours

I am slowly warming to Wraithlords once again after using 3 in a Spearhead detachment against Custodes. The degrading profile is a pain but for around 400 points, you get 30 T8 3+ wounds to chew through which makes them surprisingly durable. Heavy weapons of you choice and competent enough in melee are handy benefits. Chuck in either a -1 to Hit for Alatitoc or a 6+++ for Ulthwe and they seem to stick around long enough to deal some damage to the enemy.

The boost to T8 in the codex is handy given how much plasma there is in the meta. Shooting overcharged plasma at Alaitoc Wraithlords becomes surprisingly risky. Other popular S8 weapons like Thunder Hammers and such also lost out slightly against them and they are fully twice as durable against bolter fire.

I am not claiming they are a hidden gem in the codex but when you are facing an opponent who is determined to come to you, they make a very effective shell to protect your squishier unit.

Tournaments really need to consider 1500 points.

Spartacus wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:


2 turn games

This is why you can't ever trust tournaments from a balance standpoint. The game wasn't designed to be shorter than the prescribed 5-7 turns, and so many army styles suffer when you try to shoehorn a game into 2-2.5 hours

But if the game wasn't designed to end in two turns, why do they design each army to blow the better part of each other off the table by the first?