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Is there any word on the streets when Seaphon will get their update?

Nope. The stars aren't aligned yet, it seems.

 auticus wrote:
The moaning I'm hearing is mainly that they were written by the for-fun team, and the for-stomping team books will continue for- stomping.

I can't confirm thats the case as I have not seen the rules, only parroting what is a common theme across my facebook and twitter feeds.

Well I don't know if there's any stomp in the book but there certainly doesn't seem to be any fun, so I guess both teams lose on this one.

What killed Kharadron for me was , instead of fixing the stupid Thunderer only 1 of each weapon, they made that also for the Arkanaut Company.

I tried Arkanaut Companies with 3 miniguns because feth yeah miniguns. I wasn''t really competitive but I loved playing that. Now is just... it is ugly. Having one of each weapon. I can't stand that.

What, you don't like having a bAlAncED MiX oF WeaPoNS on a unit while also cutting their range significantly?

Thunderers gained a buff specifically for having mixed weapons, which I think is an artful way of doing things; the situation for them is a bit different with four special weapon options on a 5-man unit and I feel the original 'free mix' was too much. The change to Arkanauts I think we all saw coming but is still unfortunate in my eyes. It would have been better to just balance the three options.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts on Tzeentch? Having watched Ash's review, it seems like a particularly uninspired release consisting entirely of safe choices like lowering points costs while cutting the more outlandish abilities (Changeling might as well just be removed) and not adding a single new and exciting thing to the faction. Even the layout was genericized, losing the gold filigree bits that overlapped spell tables and such.

The idea that every battletome needs to add new stuff eventually leads to an extremely bloated system overall, while the 'change for the sake of change' mentality tends to be inconsistent and not even go over well. I think on a conceptual level taking a functional battletome and updating it without shaking things up is a sound decision. As for whether the updated mechanics are fun, that is obviously a very subjective topic.


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 Galas wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts on Tzeentch? Having watched Ash's review, it seems like a particularly uninspired release consisting entirely of safe choices like lowering points costs while cutting the more outlandish abilities (Changeling might as well just be removed) and not adding a single new and exciting thing to the faction. Even the layout was genericized, losing the gold filigree bits that overlapped spell tables and such.

You can see with things like the lost of the Changeling hability or the sky dwarves losing their hability to grab onto terrain and move that more and more AoS is losing that "crazy" spirit and trying to "Homogeinize" everything, becoming more and more 40k. For some people thats good. I agree that many of those crazy habilites were most of the time useless, and sometimes broken. But it was also the spirit that draw me onto aos. That they had much more freedom to innovate in the habilites of subfactions.

I remember when Tzeentch released. The Destiny Dice would had been something completely alien for 40k but in AoS it was seen as ultra cool. In 40k, you know exactly what your faction will get: Subfactions, Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits. AoS had that extra room for crazy alligiance habilities and unit habilities. And many of that is being lost. A shame.

My perspective is different; where you see homogenization I see removing gimmicks. Yeah they were fun initially for the novelty, but that quickly wore off and they became either exploited or unused. They have been replaced with easier, more functional mechanics that I enjoy more because they are easier to play with and don't fall into the 'broken or not' situation that most gimmicks end up in. And KO still have a massive pile of unique mechanics no one else gets!

Also, have the Thunderer's Mortar have always had 12" range? I mean. How does a mortar with 12" range makes any sense?

If I remember correctly it was 30" or something like that before.

What I have realised is that in the early AoS nearly everything had a 4+ to hit. Now nearly everything has a 3+. For example with Kharadrons's cannons and all the Ogres. I had no problem with my ogres hitting on 4+. The problem was that made them awfull, but not because 4+. YOu can balance 4+ without a problem, they are slow brutes, thats fine, just give them more damage/attacks to compensate.

But alas, whatever, is not like it makes any kind of difference, just redundant variances to reach the same mathematical conclussion.

The problem with 4+ and KO guns was that they all had 1 attack, so your 150-240-480pts ships usually hit their target twice per game with their main weapon. And you still had to roll to wound and damage.

Anyway, no, the mortar used to be 18" i think, but then they nerfed it cause everyone took it as special option, and then they made it 1 weapon per 5, so the reason for the nerf disappeared, but GW forgot why they nerfed it, so it stayed nerfed.

Ogor guns are all 4+ still though. Except maybe the characters.

Makes sense that KOs would be fairly good at hitting stuff.

I didn't look into KO just yet, but i did look into DoT as i have a large Tzaangor army, tho its a BoC version, i am getting the book+spells even so. My BoC opinions at bottom.

-Shaman is cheaper 10pts
-EToD are up 20pts
-Tzaangors lost their horde discount, and shields slightly changed
-All Tzaangors lost Daemon keyword (helps and hurts)
-Horrors redesigned (in a good way, and IMO they are stronger now)
-Acolytes minor changes/buffs but went up in points
-A few ways to get bonuses to hit/atk/rend
-A single large caster can be buffed a bit more than it can now
-Fate Dice got nerfed heavily IMO (max of 9, limited uses)
-Army rule -1 to hit in melee within 12 for daemons is really good IMO (its why Tzaangors lost Daemon keyword i think)
Traits are optional which is good
-New Agendas is just a straight free bonus, 2 examples: with Fate dice the cast 2 endless spells one should be easy to get off,so you can have a caster on turn 2+ have +1 to cast always, 1 of the endless spells can be the Re-roll casts, if going Acolyte/Tzaangor heavy, kill a unit with 9+ models to get a +1 hits for that unit. Very strong on a large block unit or a 6-9man TEoD. Another is you make a 9" charge, for the rest of that turn you get a +1 to your atks, again for for melee armies
Changehost still there, but minor changes and i think it cost more

Thats only 1/2 of the important changes, some of the changes i noted out are for BoC players as well (will talk about this last). Its important to note that the Gaunt Summer and Horrors are a bit mroe costly now, but IMO they are an Auto include, at least 1 summoner with Horrors to summon for free and 1 unit of Horrors, that'll get you 20 Horrors, 40 Blues, 40 Brims. Horrors are 200pts for 50 wounds basically, so for 440pts you are getting 2 casts per turn and 100 wounds on the table. Combine them with a -1 to be hit in melee, its going to take a lot to kill them, throw them on an objective or two and win the game. Summoning will be easy to get points, you can easily have 7-10 casts a turn with some re-rolls, date dice, +to casts, etc.. Melee DoT got a huge buff, can easily have units with +hits, +atks, +rend, but they all went up in points.


As for BoC, 100% straight nerf if you took the 30block of tzaangors, or TEoD's, the Shaman is -10pts, but you are not saving points for Tzaangors, and you are spend 20pts more per set of Disks, very bad for BoC, if you take the Sigil endless spell you'll now be thinking of 2 endless spells and BoC don't do multiple endless spells very well, it costing a spell of 40pts and a Tzaangor caster (b.c we don't want to be dispell we need those re-rolls to get high casting roles), its 190pts to give a now +60pts unit +1atk where before it was 160pts and 1Cp to give it +1atk, thats +90pts. But you can now play out of Allherd or Gavespawn and save your CP. Now a BoC battalion inside a DoT book might be playable, i didn't look at that yet to see if the buffs outweigh the nerfs.


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I want to add, i might be allying in a Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch for now on, as its 2 casts and it summon 200pts (up to 50 wounds) of models, so for 260pts you are getting 460pts of stuff. Even tho its not getting any buffs, its basically 4pts per wound on the horrors and a hero that can cast twice. 1 of the spells is a anti-horde spell, great for Rats, Gnobs, Mguard, etc.. i love the Gavespawn theme, and it fits well with that theme imo.

 Galas wrote:
Also, have the Thunderer's Mortar have always had 12" range? I mean. How does a mortar with 12" range makes any sense?

If I remember correctly it was 30" or something like that before.

Originally 30", which combined with the freeform weapon choice meant people running squads with all mortars combined with stacking khemist buffs to throw out tons of shooting at a huge distance. This was at the very dawn of the battletome, during that brief period where KO were actually quite potent when exploited properly. But the freeform weapons is gone, the attack-stacking is gone, and so this was the perfect time to put the mortar to 30" again, or at least 24". I totally agree 12" is nonsense.

What I have realised is that in the early AoS nearly everything had a 4+ to hit. Now nearly everything has a 3+. For example with Kharadrons's cannons and all the Ogres. I had no problem with my ogres hitting on 4+. The problem was that made them awfull, but not because 4+. YOu can balance 4+ without a problem, they are slow brutes, thats fine, just give them more damage/attacks to compensate.

KO hitting on 3+ makes more sense to me than 4+. But I am with you on Ogors; they aren't particularly skilled, just powerful. 4+ to hit with good wounds rolls made sense. The proper way to buff them would have been with rend which would maintain and enhance the 'crude but mighty' element of the army, and because the army is surprisingly pillow-fisted against good saves anyways. But GW is extremely stingy with rend in AoS. More units deal MWs than have rend -2, which is absolutely silly.

But alas, whatever, is not like it makes any kind of difference, just redundant variances to reach the same mathematical conclussion.

In a vacuum yes, but in the context of a battlefield it makes a huge difference once penalties/bonuses get involved. -1 to hit and re-roll hits of 1 are both extremely common and create very different results on a 3+/4+ attack verses a 4+/3+ one, for example. It also plays into theme of how strong an attack is verses how well it is aimed, and theme is definitely something that matters.

As someone new to AoS, how many copies of the first issue of mortal realms would be a good starting point? Probably more interested in the Stormcast Eternals side of things, if I got enough to get 20 Sequitors are they a decent foundation for an army?

The 1st issue comes with 3 sequitors. They all can be build 1 way only, and one of them is a unit leader. Not sure if you really want 2 units composed entirely of 3 of the same models.

Cronch wrote:
The 1st issue comes with 3 sequitors. They all can be build 1 way only, and one of them is a unit leader. Not sure if you really want 2 units composed entirely of 3 of the same models.

Not quite true. The unit leader has a helmet option, which makes it a little bit better.

Cronch wrote:
The 1st issue comes with 3 sequitors. They all can be build 1 way only, and one of them is a unit leader. Not sure if you really want 2 units composed entirely of 3 of the same models.

tbh I'm not that bothered (especially at £1 each), the last time I played warhammer i had 24 of these identical guys, so 3 variants sounds great to me!

if i just wanted to build a 1000pt army is 20 sequitors a reasonable starting point?

To get a "legal" unit of 10 without using the leader as basic trooper, you'd need 5 issues- you'd have 5 basic dudes, 4 dudes with double handed weapons and 1 leader, and a whole bunch of spares. If you don't mind clones, it's not as bad of a deal as I thought it'd be.

Cronch wrote:
To get a "legal" unit of 10 without using the leader as basic trooper, you'd need 5 issues- you'd have 5 basic dudes, 4 dudes with double handed weapons and 1 leader, and a whole bunch of spares. If you don't mind clones, it's not as bad of a deal as I thought it'd be.

thanks. looking at the sprue it seems a reasonably easy conversion to make the leader look like one of the basic troopers.

Shooter wrote:

Cronch wrote:
To get a "legal" unit of 10 without using the leader as basic trooper, you'd need 5 issues- you'd have 5 basic dudes, 4 dudes with double handed weapons and 1 leader, and a whole bunch of spares. If you don't mind clones, it's not as bad of a deal as I thought it'd be.

thanks. looking at the sprue it seems a reasonably easy conversion to make the leader look like one of the basic troopers.

As I say, the leader has a helmet option on the sprue. So you dont even need to convert.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Well, 40k is getting Faith Dice which are its own Destiny Dice mechanic.

Otherwise I have heard a lot of negative things from KO and DoT players so it does sound to me that this is a really "meh" release.

The only complaints I've heard were the nerfs to Tzaangors, primarily enlightened, which I think we all knew was going to happen. Some people are upset with horrors, but their role has completed switched and people now understand their new role are not as upset with them.

Tzeentch as a whole is significantly stronger. Destiny dice, the Locus, agendas and the covens has improved a lot of units dramatically. Tzangor enlightened are still strong, and it is very easy to get them the +1 attack agenda, and the fatemaster command ability removes the need for them to attack second.

The 1-drop changehost lists that are working their way around, are a tournament-winning level list for sure.

There are a ton more variety of a builds, which are all stronger, with several competitive lists floating around in the book.

Tzeentch came out ahead no doubt. Kharadon got the short end of the stick, I feel like GW went the "Safe" route with them. I fully expect they are going to get the digital points drops during the summer GHB.

IDK i think KO is very strong still, after reading both books with players that play both armies, they both are better than they were for sure. KO seems to might have only a couple good lists but are much stronger than they are now.

Yeesh, I'll need to read the book but garrisons on the flyers are pretty insanely prohibitive especially after warscroll changes for weapons on the arkonaughts. The reduced speed on the Ironclad for taking more than 15 models is silly.

Points for quite a few things went up and list building is going to be interesting. I'm going to give it a few shots but I feel like this is rough compared to most the other books that have come out recently.

My brother has been playing them and is doing alright in our group. The ships and their ability to Fly High help him quite a bit with mobility and their gunline style ends up doing some pretty strong dmg.

I think before passing judgement on the new KO battletome it is important to remember that all the units got significant durability buffs. Thunderers are 2W, Arkanauts and skyvessels all got increased saves. The army's ability to repair said skyvessels has increased as well. This is all before getting into the significant offensive increase from easy access to re-rolls, improved stats on a huge number of wearpons, and units getting full shooting while onboard vessels.

They aren't Tzeentch but I think KO players will be very happy to have a viable army.

General stuff to ask here, because I rarely drill down on AoS stuff...

Any guess as to when we can expect kits for the new StD Chaos Warriors/Knights, or even some new Chosen kits? I know nothing has really been teased, but I figure there's at least a noticeable pattern to 'full kits' after a release like the StD box.

And is there anything for WarCry in relation to the above, or any other factions? I'm about to '40k' the Warcry Terrain by kitbashing it with the new Necromunda terrain unless there's a good reason to keep it around.

A bit later than the announcement, but the return of Teclis has got me all kinds of excited.

I can only hope that they plan to release new Elves, as has been theorized for over a year now. When I got in to AoS 2-3 years ago, I had thought about starting it off with High Elves or Dark Elves, but the meh rules turned me away, so I had to settle for a different faction. I'm really hoping whatever they do, if they do have any new elves, it has some similar aethstetic to the 'old' Elven style. Armored torso, pointy pauldrons and fancy robes beneath the armor.

Hear hear!
Personally I'm not a high elf fan, but several of my friends were in WHFB and are currently uninterested in AoS because of the lack of pointy hats. I'm trying to twist their arms into spending less time in 40K and more in AoS but right now they are waiting on Teclis and his crew.

 Thadin wrote:
A bit later than the announcement, but the return of Teclis has got me all kinds of excited.

I can only hope that they plan to release new Elves, as has been theorized for over a year now. When I got in to AoS 2-3 years ago, I had thought about starting it off with High Elves or Dark Elves, but the meh rules turned me away, so I had to settle for a different faction. I'm really hoping whatever they do, if they do have any new elves, it has some similar aethstetic to the 'old' Elven style. Armored torso, pointy pauldrons and fancy robes beneath the armor.

Considering how much their video amped up the "pointy head/ears" thing I would be surprised if they'd ignore that aesthetic.

I'd say it looks like they're not ignoring it.

I saw that and wondered if it might be a red herring; it seems too obvious as being part of the upcoming Battletome: Pointy Aelves release. Which then made me wonder if Exodites. But I'm probably overthinking it.

Looks like it's the top of a staff.