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Azuza001 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, i was planning on revamping my Space Marines, but, then i remembered that i wanted to progress my Thousand Sons from 30k to 40k!

I keep getting drawn back to Rubric marines with varying results, but, i'd like some quick glances over this list if possible! It is aimed at being competitive, but, i'm just not sure how it's going to pan out. Got a 1 detachment of each type limit.

Spoiler:

Battalion -
Ahriman on Disc - Warlord, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Glamour of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc - DMC, Prescience, Weaver of Fates, 2 power swords.
Cultists x15.
Rubric Marines x5 - bolters, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x5 - 4x flamers, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x10 - bolters, Soulreaper, Weaver of Fates
Rhino x2 - x2 combi bolter.

Supreme Command
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, warptime, infernal gateway.
Daemon Prince - helm of third eye, wings, x2 talon, bolter, Warptime, gaze of fate.
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, gift of chaos, infernal gaze.
Magnus - Death hex, Doombolt, weaver of fates.

This list gives me mobility, a fair amount of "tough" threats and a lot of psychic. With only 9-10 drops, i would hope to get the first turn roll off advantage and decide from there. Most of the things that can still deep strike won't really worry me too much, so i can always opt to go 2nd if i win the roll off - biggest issue though is then keeping Magnus out of LoS turn1.

Thoughts on dropping the flamer squad and 1 rhino for 5 terminators to use the crystal and warptime on turn one, instead of potentially the 10 man rubric squad? If i did this, i'd swap the roles of the 5 and 10 man rubric squads around. Issues then arise from the terminators being a good target for 2 dmg weapons.

Flyers would be a turn 1 problem, but, after than should be manageable via smites and charging princes. Gun lines would have 1 turn to kill everything before the princes hit their lines.

Is Magnus even worth it?

Thanks!

Magnus is a beast but will get targeted so fair warning there.

I wouldn't make arhiman my warlord I would give that the one of the Deamon Princes, give that DP the Eatherstride trait, warptime, and demonic strength, then run it straight at the closest enemy target you can turn 1. This does 2 things, it puts something straight in their face not magnus that they must deal with and if you don't get first turn you still have this demonic missile that can't be targeted due to being a charecter.

Putting Temporal manipulation on the rubrics doesn't seem to make much sense to me, you can't bring rubrics back with it and is a reactive spell, meaning you need to wait until you have damage done before you can even cast it. I prefer firestorm of tzeench on mine for the extra mortal wound opportunitys.

You didn't give any of your deamon princes any of the good deamon spells, gaze of fate, Flickering flames, these are 2 very useful spells especially if you have a good target like a defiler or forgefiend to cast on.

Your list is close to the list I lost too this weekend, granted we were playing at 1500 pts, but still it's a powerful list. You may have trouble with holds though, tyrnaids could really cause issues to it. Keep in mind you can only cast a spell once a turn other than smite so once you cast weaver of fate and glamor of tzeench on magnus then anyone else with that spell can't cast it.

Thanks for the thoughts!

I thought about making a Prince the warlord and doing that trick, but, is it just not a free "slay the warlord" point? I also fear that certain dedicated gunlines would be able to kill it AND Magnus in the first turn, due to the Prince not having any protection. By taking Ahriman i essentially get a 3++ on him and Magnus (could just use that trait on a Prince too). Sure, it just makes Magnus the one and only target, but, i'd rather lose him and a rhino over him and a prince, if that makes sense?

The idea behind Temporal Manipulation on the 2 5 man squads is the following -
Both are in 1 rhino and advance up the table first turn with the princes and Magnus etc.
They will both be likely just casting normal 1 dmg smite anyway, having this spell allows me the chance of healing back some wounds on Magnus, a prince or a rhino should they survive, whilst not taking up a higher value power slot on one of the HQs. I have Gaze of Fate on one of the Princes. I could take it once more on a Rubric squad, but i'm not sure the redundancy would have that much value after the first couple of turns. This could be the totally wrong approach though!

I've not thought about adding in a Daemon engine, so i didn't really look at Flickering Flames. Not sure what adding one in would add to the list though. Most of what i went for in powers with the Princes were either for turn 1 utility, or to add to the mortal wound output later in the game. They will be the main source of destroying tanks etc, so anything to help bolster the output seemed like a good idea. Is it better to just drop Infernal Gaze and Infernal Gateway?

Yeah, the extras of certain spells are there for redundancy should Magnus or something go down early. I didn't think about nids though... I always forget about Shadow in the Warp and Kronos!!!! There doesn't seem to be much getting around that though :/

You may lose slay the warlord, but your trade off is so much more than that. By forcing your enemies hand first turn your dictating the flow of battle, and anything to keep shots away from magnus is worth it.

I understand the idea of using the rubrics as "repair" guys, no issues there, I just prefer to use the familiar stratagem to swap that power in turn 2 or 3 onto someone so it's where it needs to be when it needs to be used.

As for the dealing with swarms like nids it's why I like the defiler so much, it's an effective unit without needed to rely on spells to make it work, if you go cheap with it you can get some anti tank and anti melee from the unit. But in your list I dont know where you would find the points.

Remember, rubrics will reck most tyrnaid things when you shoot at them with numbers but won't do any better than a normal marine vs genestealers unless you get death hex off on them, and your going to have to get very close for that to work. In that situation you want to be hitting with a unit that is cheap but can put out a lot of shots, unfortunately we don't have many options for that in our lists besides trying to hit them with tzaangors before they hit us, and that's not an easy option.

Edit

If you allied in a Havoc detachment with 4 heavy bolters and put them in cover that would go a long way to deal with nids for your list. Again not sure you can find the points.

Azuza001 wrote:
You may lose slay the warlord, but your trade off is so much more than that. By forcing your enemies hand first turn your dictating the flow of battle, and anything to keep shots away from magnus is worth it.

I understand the idea of using the rubrics as "repair" guys, no issues there, I just prefer to use the familiar stratagem to swap that power in turn 2 or 3 onto someone so it's where it needs to be when it needs to be used.

As for the dealing with swarms like nids it's why I like the defiler so much, it's an effective unit without needed to rely on spells to make it work, if you go cheap with it you can get some anti tank and anti melee from the unit. But in your list I dont know where you would find the points.

Remember, rubrics will reck most tyrnaid things when you shoot at them with numbers but won't do any better than a normal marine vs genestealers unless you get death hex off on them, and your going to have to get very close for that to work. In that situation you want to be hitting with a unit that is cheap but can put out a lot of shots, unfortunately we don't have many options for that in our lists besides trying to hit them with tzaangors before they hit us, and that's not an easy option.

Edit

If you allied in a Havoc detachment with 4 heavy bolters and put them in cover that would go a long way to deal with nids for your list. Again not sure you can find the points.

Thanks for the help! I’ll certainly take this info into consideration and see what I can do to round out the list!

Anyone feel as though Helm of the Third Eye and Doombolt were indirectly buffed? Everyone is trying to advance and charge and doombolt range is 24 inches - if you go first with the strat can get it go off on a 5/6 depending who is casting and other modifiers. Helm provides some additional CP support as everyone is using 15+ CP now.

To build on this slightly - it seems the troops are good but tzaangors took a slight nerf no longer being able to be warp timed so it comes down to an 8 inch charge with rerolls out of the warp/Dark matter crystal - supreme command looks attractive. Smite staying at 5 with doombolt, firestorm etc in the middle of a big blob of soup (Plaguebearers or 3++ horrors) seems attractive...

Doom bolt is very attractive, it can seriously slow a fast army down quick while putting out moral wounds. My issue with my list and the helm is the only person I can put it on is my warlord who is typically dead by turn 3 (he is a suicide dp of orky wargh) so I feel I waste it. But our tournaments are 1500 pts so yeah, there are ways to make it work and last.

What do you guys think about land raiders now? As a way to advance a unit up the field while still having serious firepower. Now that we don’t have to worry about things deepstriking and get a turn to breathe is it worth it? My list has a mutalith and defiler in it as well so it’s not the o my big target.

Worth it? Or should it’s job be diluted and made into a rhino and some other form of long range support?

demontalons wrote:
What do you guys think about land raiders now? As a way to advance a unit up the field while still having serious firepower. Now that we don’t have to worry about things deepstriking and get a turn to breathe is it worth it? My list has a mutalith and defiler in it as well so it’s not the o my big target.

Worth it? Or should it’s job be diluted and made into a rhino and some other form of long range support?

4 lascannons on a 3+ after moving are 4 lascannons on a 3+ after moving, nobody denies that. Two questions pop in my mind though. In an army as expensive and elite as TS, what do you plan to remove to find landraider points? And two, what is your landraider going to carry? It's not fast enough to give you first turn close up, and if you are going for second turn, you could just deep strike instead. The only thing I find the landaider managing is giving us second turn warpflamer shooting, which deepstrike cannot do. But then again, your thing becomes so expensive that, at that point, you could as well just put Magnus on the table.

I want to like the land raider, I really really do, and they can be useful. But what are we putting into it that can't go in a rhino? Scarab occult? Not something I would put in the land raider.

I am a bigger fan of just going with rhinos and rubrics over a land raider.

Having said all of that land raiders are quite cool. It really comes down to if your opponent has an answer for one or not. A single Dev squad with 4 laz cannons and a cherub can kill a land raider in one turn. So if you are going to go that route make sure to target the stuff that will kill your big stuff first.

Has anyone been running mutalith at all? And if so what did you use them for? I currently have 150 points to spare in my list and can’t decide whether the mutalith is worth it or should I put in a las/ml helbrute for long range support to go with my 2 defilers

I ran one as a distraction carnifex and to block incoming assaults to my more important models. I used the aoe mortal wounds and hit 9 units, then used the strategem to roll one randomly, and got the same thing. That was well worth it.

Vortex beast is a monster. Putting out a mortal wound to every unit within 18" when it's below 8 wounds or making tzaangors get - 1ap bonus to there weapons, just he'll yes. I went 2 and 1 in a tournament last week with one, last game he was killing 5 enemy rubrics a turn due to my opponent running small 5 man squads. I don't think he will be doing that next time lol.

NVM i'm being stupid and going backwards in time, rather than forwards.......

I am thinking of trying a lot of rubrics for my next tson game. I picked up 20 more for 50$ the other day from my FLGS and really am thinking 40 rubrics will be hard to move.

This is what I am thinking at 2k.


Gives me 2 five man squads for objective taking, a 10 man support in a rhino, and a large 20 man that I can move up using the dark matter crystal. One dp and arhiman sit with the defilers making them better and doing general shenanigans. Mutalith moves forward as well, distracting the enemy as the warlord runs up and punches the biggest target in its way hulk smash style. Also the list gives 9 drops so that should help get me 1st Turn.

Thoughts?

You know that all Thousand sons get obsec Not only troop Choices. Brause the disciples of tzeentch give all Thousand Sons obsec. So You can Play enlightend an vortex beast or an hellforged contemptor or what ever You want to obsec. Thats One of the biggest strenghts of the sons.

That is... definitely false. Only troops choices get the Disciples of Tzeentch ability, I'm looking at the codex right now and that's what it says.

I’m not sure what you’re gaining with the mutalith. There’s nothing in your army that really benefits from its buffs and I feel like it’s not quite good enough to be taken just for it’s mortal wound aoe. If you had tzaangors or tzeentch cc units I could see a use but I would drop it for some chaff clearing units.

A contemptor with butcher cannon and tl hb puts out 10 shots and is about the same price. Alternatively make a tzeentch detachment and grab some brimstone horrors to screen your big unit of rubrics. You’re still vulnerable to a turn 2 charge shenanigans from stuff like Khorne demons blood angels etc,

 Arachnofiend wrote:
That is... definitely false. Only troops choices get the Disciples of Tzeentch ability, I'm looking at the codex right now and that's what it says.

Iam looking too at the codex and there is written :"a Unit with this ability that is within range of an objectiv..."
There ja no limitationen on the troop choice

That's because it's under the abilities section which gives out who gets what.

ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, PSYKER units in THOUSAND SONS Detachments gain the Brotherhood of Sorcerers ability. In addition, Troops units in THOUSAND SONS Detachments gain the Disciples of Tzeentch ability.

So nope, only troops get it.

I originally had a squad of tzaangors to get help from the mutalith but found they were never in range to get its boost due to getting moved by the crystal to a flank outside mutalith range.

Also it can help make the rubrics get -1 Ap if they get stuck in close combat, or make the deamon princes hit at - 3ap, or even make itself better. It would be better on a large unit that has multiple attacks but it can help make things better. Finally don't underestimate it's mortal wound output, opponents know it can be a beast and will gun for it making it a good distraction.

So, I submitted my list for the London GT last night, and thought I’d share it just so a lot of people can go into meltdown about some of the choices!

Battalion
Ahriman on disc
Daemon Prince, wings, 2 talons
Daemon Prince, wings, 2 talons
2x 5 Rubrics with bolters
1x 12 Cultists
1x Rhino with 2 combi bolters

Vanguard
Exalted Sorcerer on disc
1x 5 SoT with missile rack
2x Hellforged Contemptors with 1 Butcher cannon and 1 c-beam each.

Super Heavy
Magnus

Warlord is one of the Princes and will likely take Aetherstride. Exalted Sorcerer has the Helm relic and I’ll likely give the non-warlord prince the Crystal via 1 CP.

Should be an interesting event!

Very nice list, I like additional troops myself but I see what your doing and it should be quite successful. My only issue with exalted sorcerer on a disk is for a few more points you can get a deamon prince without wings, a much better unit in almost all instances. But I understand, I have an exalted with dual swords I keep wanting to use but those deamon princes are so nice!

Azuza001 wrote:
Very nice list, I like additional troops myself but I see what your doing and it should be quite successful. My only issue with exalted sorcerer on a disk is for a few more points you can get a deamon prince without wings, a much better unit in almost all instances. But I understand, I have an exalted with dual swords I keep wanting to use but those deamon princes are so nice!

Tbh i didn't even think about a prince without wings Certainly something to look at for next time! Will see how the exalted performs though, and whether or not the other 2 princes do what i'm hoping. Would rather have 1 average performing exalted sorcerer than a 3rd prince that might not do much. That said, they are both going to be doing the same roll pretty much - giving re-roll 1's and buffing powers.

Yeah i'm a little thin on troops. If i was going to swap something out for more troops it would be the SoT, which we discussed. 10 more Rubrics or 5 terminators is a tough choice, but i went for the termies in the end simply as it was a free deepstrike as opposed to 1 cp. Might be the worst of the 2 choices, but i'll have to figure that out

There are some nasty lists going from what i can see (they've posted like 200 or so of the lists so far - some are 9 princes strong + magnus, others are masses of cultists etc). Will be a good challenge!

9 princes? Not using the new rules or are they bending the rules by taking 3 princes of tzeench, 3 princes of chaos, and 3 deamon prince from the chaos marines codex?

I mean, it's stupid to do it that way, but it's raw so.... Yeah.. Good luck, deamon princes are sweet. They are probably undercost, or other hqs are over priced.

Azuza001 wrote:
Good luck, deamon princes are sweet. They are probably undercost, or other hqs are over priced.

Our Daemon prince is, of course, undercosted compared with the other versions. But it's really not that bad overall. Look at Celestine if you need to convince yourself : she's basically a Daemon prince with twice the wounds and regeneration for 200pts...

Only ever fought Celestine one, I was using dark angels at the time. Samuel ran her over with his land speeder after shooting at her point blank and just destroyed her. When she "came back" it wasn't near him lol.

Lost that game but I get your point. Our dp's are the best for sure.

Azuza001 wrote:
9 princes? Not using the new rules or are they bending the rules by taking 3 princes of tzeench, 3 princes of chaos, and 3 deamon prince from the chaos marines codex?

I mean, it's stupid to do it that way, but it's raw so.... Yeah.. Good luck, deamon princes are sweet. They are probably undercost, or other hqs are over priced.

Bending the rules for 3 princes, 3 princes of tzeentch from 1ksons and i think 3 princes of nurgle from DG.

Hi,

I find it a little hard to follow all FaQ and changes sometimes. So short question: Can a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch use a Warpbolter and if yes what does it cost?

Battlescribe list it with 3 points, but i looked through the PDFs and did not find a clue, why.

elodingens wrote:
Hi,

I find it a little hard to follow all FaQ and changes sometimes. So short question: Can a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch use a Warpbolter and if yes what does it cost?

Battlescribe list it with 3 points, but i looked through the PDFs and did not find a clue, why.

It is an index option for the daemon prince and costs 3 points. However, now that I think about it, there is no index datasheet for “Daemon Prince of Tzeentch”, so you might not be able to take it as there is no index version to go back to. At work right now so can’t 100% check.

I personally opted not to take the bolter anyway, due to it not coming in the kit and I can see a day coming when indices get squatted.

elodingens wrote:
Hi,
I find it a little hard to follow all FaQ and changes sometimes. So short question: Can a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch use a Warpbolter and if yes what does it cost?
Battlescribe list it with 3 points, but i looked through the PDFs and did not find a clue, why.

It can't, because the datasheets have different names (Daemon Prince / Daemon Prince of Tzeentch), as Kdash pointed out.

Yeah, anyone who tries to say you can take the warp bolter because the Tsons deamon prince is the upgraded deamon prince from the index tsons army but then also says the Tsons dp are a different name so you get 3 of them and 3 from the chaos deamons codex and 3 from the chaos marines codex needs to be slapped. There is bending to a "ok I can see that" then there is "dude your back is going to snap if you keep doing that.... " bending.

I am not suggesting your doing that I want to be clear, I have just had bad experiences with those kind of players who will do anything to get an advantage, it's not worth the head ache. :(


Besides, it's a warp bolter, big whoop. Tson dp's are still the best dp out there. We rock doomrider style lol.

So, I've been combing through the open lists for that upcoming london GT to see how tournament players have been using my favorite factions (see here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756135.page) and the post-FAQ thousand sons lists are...unpredictable to say the very least.

Out of about 250 lists, Thousand Sons appear in 25, with 6 of those being pure or nearly pure thousand sons lists (less than 500 points of allied units). Predictably the massive majority feature Ahriman and the DPTz, the two obvious star units post-FAQ.

A few unpredictable things though:

1) the number of rubric squads total outnumbers the number of tzaangor squads total. Only 3 lists feature a large unit of tzaangors, despite the DMC still being usable post-FAQ.

2) Scarab occult terminators are vanishingly rare (appearing in only one list) while rubrics appear in 9 out of the 25 lists, and in every pure thousand son list that I can find.

3) Magnus seems to be making a heavy comeback, but who does not seem to be is Tzeentch daemons. Only 2 lists feature any Tzdaemon allies at all, which I would think would come along with Magnus to get him the 6++ from changeling vs turn 1 lascannons.