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 bullyboy wrote:
Pretty much what i expected when I saw the list. he is just a good player, and it's really not much to do with being Dark Angels. Would have probably been better as a different SM faction but still a solid, generic list.

This list is so much better as IH it is not even funny (big guns on the executioners).

Reading over the battle reports it seems like a lot of the players he played on day 1 weren't in it to win it. I'm not sure if this is the type of list I'd try to copy as a DA player. I think it shows what a good player can do with a list they practice with. Also it shows how bad DA stuff is when none of it makes it into a DA list (and it's better to play with powered down SM tools...).

bananathug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Pretty much what i expected when I saw the list. he is just a good player, and it's really not much to do with being Dark Angels. Would have probably been better as a different SM faction but still a solid, generic list.

This list is so much better as IH it is not even funny (big guns on the executioners).

Reading over the battle reports it seems like a lot of the players he played on day 1 weren't in it to win it. I'm not sure if this is the type of list I'd try to copy as a DA player. I think it shows what a good player can do with a list they practice with. Also it shows how bad DA stuff is when none of it makes it into a DA list (and it's better to play with powered down SM tools...).

Such a negative outlook

Or realistic. If things are bad it just makes you worse if you lie to yourself

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Here's part 1 of an article by Chase Garber, who went 4-1 at Iron Halo with that offbeat DA list:

https://www.goonhammer.com/dark-angels-at-the-bartlesville-iron-halo-itc-major-day-1-a-gunum-tournament-report/

I'm not sure that a list with two Relic Leviathan and a Repulser Executioer qualifies as "off-beat." What's off-beat I suppose is that he went Dark Angels!

Good to see the Plasma Executioner getting some work done, though.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Here's part 1 of an article by Chase Garber, who went 4-1 at Iron Halo with that offbeat DA list:

https://www.goonhammer.com/dark-angels-at-the-bartlesville-iron-halo-itc-major-day-1-a-gunum-tournament-report/

I'm not sure that a list with two Relic Leviathan and a Repulser Executioer qualifies as "off-beat." What's off-beat I suppose is that he went Dark Angels!

Good to see the Plasma Executioner getting some work done, though.

What I meant was he wasn't running the Azrael castle or a big blob of Ravenwing Black Knights or 3 Talonmasters or something you typically see with Dark Angels. Hence why I thought it was offbeat. The list would have probably been better as Iron Hands for sure though.

In other news, I'll probably have a Leviathan Dread of my own to try out in games very soon since I got one relatively cheaply from an acquaintance of mine.

I played in a 20 man ITC format tournament earlier. Here's the list:

Battalion

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought: Twin Lascannons
Lt
Scout Snipers
Scout Snipers
Tac squad with Heavy Bolter
Tac squad with Plasma Cannon and Combi Plasma
Devastators: 3 Missile Launchers and 1 Lascannon. Cherub.

Ravenwing Outrider Detachment from Vigilus

Sammy on Sableclaw
Darkshroud
5 Black Knights
3 Typhoon Missile/Heavy Bolter Land Speeders
Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter

So first game I drew Nurgle Daemons/Chaos Knights. He won 22 to 14. He used 60 Plaguebearers and some Nurglings to hold objectives while 2 big Knights and one little one annoyed people. I held my own rather well against him in the first few rounds. Even he admitted that his FNP rolls were what saved his ass.

2nd game was against Ad Mech/Imperial Knights. This guy had literally 3 little squads and 2 cheap commanders of Ad Mech and then 4 of the Knights with 24+ wounds. It was rather disgusting. He tabled me at the end of 4. 35-10.

3rd game was against Astra Militarum with a bunch of Leman Russes, 2 Basilisks, a Wyvern, 3 Heavy Weapons teams and a bunch of Guardsmen. I seized the initiative and after the 3rd turn he forfeited. 32-11.

All in all the list was balanced and in the one game where I wasn't playing against the Soup nonsense it shined. It tore the Guard up, including his tanks. I definitely want to get the shooty Deredeo Dreadnought from Forge World for some more fire support though.

Here's part 2 of that article by Chase Garber on his Iron Halo experience with Dark Angels:

https://www.goonhammer.com/dark-angels-at-the-bartlesville-iron-halo-itc-major-day-2-a-gunum-tournament-report/?fbclid=IwAR02yX5mme2wqr2pdWAgfTp7BRSDYZKxbZqgSvHI7UriwDj7rsba9zB1-a8

Article by the same 4-1 dude + others where he basically says the same thing I said:

https://www.goonhammer.com/stop-competing-dark-angels-tactics/

Someone please explain how people think the dark talon is one of the best flyers in the game. Alaitoc flyers, dissie cannon DE flyers, the new IH fliers, necron croissants + strat are all much better by the numbers. 200 points for 24 bs 2+ bolter shots and a d3 rift cannon? Seems so average to me.

I find myself firmly on the side of the author of the article and really struggle to find anything in our dex that we do better than another flavor of marines outside of suicide plasma ceptors (until GW updates the phobos warlord trait).

I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?

As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?

As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.

Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with

Oldman Lee wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?

As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.

Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with

If they gave us the strat that showed up on the White Dwarf mission last month (2cp for d6 movement after deepstrike) DW Knights at least would be viable. If they increased their wounds to 3 and toughness to 5 as they did for Gravis armor they would be viable. They know how to fix them but for some reason they are resisting.

They (DW Knights) are just so poorly designed I don't get it.

A melee unit that relies on making a charge from deepstrike with no bonuses (maybe a re-roll) or rolling in a 300 point transport.

The no first turn deepstrike rule (which GW has already feth'ed up) really hurt termies and plasma ceptors. The 2 cp for d6 movement after deepstrike would be awesome. So would a rule that let termies deepstrike turn 1 or something that allowed them to deepstrike w/in 6" of a unit of scouts or a character relic that would allow them to deepstrike w/in 6". That plus t5 and 3 wounds would make them a great unit (maybe asking too much, maybe just 3 wounds).

Bikers need a couple point drop because right now, vs 2 d weapons just return too many points killed vs too many weapons. Anti-armor weapons and anti-elite weapons just get too good of a ROI vs bikes (a 3rd wound and a 5 point reduction would be awesome). Not being able to go upstairs and into ruins limits their viability on a lot of tables but at least they wouldn't be a non-starter.

Plasma needs 1 MW on an unmodified roll of 1. Hellblasters need the heavy version go to d3, the assault version go to assault 2, over charge for assault 3-4 (s 6, -3, 1d) and maybe a small price drop (2-3 points).

All the characters need to come down in points (hell 3 IH land speeders are better than sammy in sable claw). Chaplain with litanies...

We need some sort of movement shenanigans (deepstrike, scout deploy, pre-game move, outflank, redeployment, psychic power, disembark after movement).

Dark talon back to it's pre-nerf price or better yet redefine the roles of the flyers. Change rift-cannon to assault 8, s6, ap -2, d 1 (or something to deal with elite-ish infantry). Nephilim gets the anti-fly bonuses (+1 to hit vs fly, additional -1 to be hit vs units that can fly) Mega bolter down to 25 points, missiles +1 to hit vs fly and d6 damage...

I'd like to see our super doctrine (if we get one) apply differently to raven and death wings (and primaris get those keywords since some are DA who have crossed the rubicon, right?).

Okay, this turned into a poorly thought out rant but the point being is DA need a lot of help. I'm curious to see what eldar get in this first psychic awakening book. Depending on it's scope there could be potential for us, if it's just 77 pages of fluff and 3 pages of lazy rules I hope the salamanders codex is good or green IH here I come...

abyrn wrote:

Oldman Lee wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?

As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.

Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with

If they gave us the strat that showed up on the White Dwarf mission last month (2cp for d6 movement after deepstrike) DW Knights at least would be viable. If they increased their wounds to 3 and toughness to 5 as they did for Gravis armor they would be viable. They know how to fix them but for some reason they are resisting.

There not primaris marines so they won't get fixed is the answer your looking for

Oldman Lee wrote:

abyrn wrote:

Oldman Lee wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?

As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.

Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with

If they gave us the strat that showed up on the White Dwarf mission last month (2cp for d6 movement after deepstrike) DW Knights at least would be viable. If they increased their wounds to 3 and toughness to 5 as they did for Gravis armor they would be viable. They know how to fix them but for some reason they are resisting.

There not primaris marines so they won't get fixed is the answer your looking for

You mean like the recent point adjustments for tactical and devastator marines?

I have decided that until GW gives us an update I am just going to run Deathwing and have fun. If I manage to win hurray if not oh well.

So, I think I've got a viable list for a big tournament in a couple of weeks. Here's what I'm planning on running:

I've already tried this list out against a friend's White Scars list and it did pretty well. I won the game mainly because I seized and my dice were pretty hot for at least the first couple of turns. I definitely like Eliminators for Dark Angels, as they synergize very well with Grim Resolve since they usually want to sit still. The Leviathan is also pretty much a boss; if I had 2 of them I'd run them both. Dark Talons are also still pretty nice; that Stasis Bomb can be really nasty against high-cost single-wound models, particularly ones with good saves (in the game against the White Scars, one of them killed 7 Vanguard Veterans with Storm Shields in cover). They aren't too impressive against massed armor like Knights or the triple Repulsor Executioner list, but they are still good for getting certain ITC secondaries like Recon or Behind Enemy Lines or even Linebreaker if you choose the Old School secondary. The Scout Bikers are also good for grabbing stuff downfield, as unlike the planes they can actually take objectives. Scout Bikes are still better than Ravenwing in most situations partly due to having more firepower and because they are actually slightly faster. Scouts and Infiltrators are good for board control, with the Eliminators providing a nice bubble of Nope! to enemy units coming in from reserves (which can be clutch against armies like Genestealer Cults or Orks using Da Jump). Sammy and the Talonmasters are probably the best HQ's in our codex currently. They put out a pretty hefty amount of punishment against hordes with their guns, and they are no slouches in CC either thanks to Shock Assault. This is why I always try to take both relic swords on my Talonmasters, as it makes them useful in two phases of the game instead of just shooting. Ravenwing Attack Squadron is also nice because it grants access to Signal the Attack and the much more situational Swift Strike. The main stratagems the list will use will be Speed of the Raven (often to allow one of the planes to advance, drop its bomb on something, and still shoot something else), Signal the Attack (to make sure that a particular unit dies when the speeder characters and planes attack it) and Intractable (mainly useful if something manages to bad-touch the Leviathan).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, I think I've got a viable list for a big tournament in a couple of weeks. Here's what I'm planning on running:

Spoiler:

Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist): Heavenfall Blade
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Monster Slayer of Caliban
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts: Pistols/CCW
5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Pistol/CCW on Sgt.
3 Scout Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgt.
3 Scout Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgt.
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Spearhead: Dark Angels
Master in Phobos Armor
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: 2x Stormcannon Array, 3x Hunter-Killer Missile

I've already tried this list out against a friend's White Scars list and it did pretty well. I won the game mainly because I seized and my dice were pretty hot for at least the first couple of turns. I definitely like Eliminators for Dark Angels, as they synergize very well with Grim Resolve since they usually want to sit still. The Leviathan is also pretty much a boss; if I had 2 of them I'd run them both. Dark Talons are also still pretty nice; that Stasis Bomb can be really nasty against high-cost single-wound models, particularly ones with good saves (in the game against the White Scars, one of them killed 7 Vanguard Veterans with Storm Shields in cover). They aren't too impressive against massed armor like Knights or the triple Repulsor Executioner list, but they are still good for getting certain ITC secondaries like Recon or Behind Enemy Lines or even Linebreaker if you choose the Old School secondary. The Scout Bikers are also good for grabbing stuff downfield, as unlike the planes they can actually take objectives. Scout Bikes are still better than Ravenwing in most situations partly due to having more firepower and because they are actually slightly faster. Scouts and Infiltrators are good for board control, with the Eliminators providing a nice bubble of Nope! to enemy units coming in from reserves (which can be clutch against armies like Genestealer Cults or Orks using Da Jump). Sammy and the Talonmasters are probably the best HQ's in our codex currently. They put out a pretty hefty amount of punishment against hordes with their guns, and they are no slouches in CC either thanks to Shock Assault. This is why I always try to take both relic swords on my Talonmasters, as it makes them useful in two phases of the game instead of just shooting. Ravenwing Attack Squadron is also nice because it grants access to Signal the Attack and the much more situational Swift Strike. The main stratagems the list will use will be Speed of the Raven (often to allow one of the planes to advance, drop its bomb on something, and still shoot something else), Signal the Attack (to make sure that a particular unit dies when the speeder characters and planes attack it) and Intractable (mainly useful if something manages to bad-touch the Leviathan).

I think the list looks very good and you have a good gameplan, the only thing I would think to change is the Master in phobos armor. I understand he gives out a no-deepstrike bubble, but it might be better to replace him with either a librarian in phobos armor or a lieutenant in phobos armor so that you can still get the target priority warlord trait.

I played against Speed Freak Orks with 2 Gorkanauts earlier. Was up 9-4 at the end of the 3rd turn and the guy called it. List was:

Belial
10 Deathwing Terminators with 2 Chainfists and 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers.
DW Ancient
DW Apothecary
Ven Dread with Twin Lascannons

Sammy
3 RW bikes with 2 Flamers. Sgt with Combi-Flamer
3 RW bikes with 2 Plasmaguns. Attack Bike with MM attached.
5 RW Knights
Nephilim Jetfighter
Dark Talon

Just got a Stormraven. Have never used one before. Any advice?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Just got a Stormraven. Have never used one before. Any advice?

I've been trying to make mine work with Deathwing Knights since we gained access with the Codex. The enemy can't ignore it, but its a huge investment to be just a Distraction Carnifex. Pairing it with Dark Shroud can increase first turn survivability (it's too slow really to keep up), but that's also doubling down so to speak. For a "gun ship" the Dark Talon has done more work for me.

I was thinking of running an Airwing Detachment with one of each of our flyers since I have one of each now.

So, now that I've played in that GT I thought I'd share some of what happened and what I learned. I ran the list I posted above with the only change being that I swapped Ravenwing bikes for the scout ones.

My first game was against a mixed Aeldari list with a Battalion of Biel-tan units including a Farseer and Warlock on jetbikes, 3 units of Dire Avengers, a big blob of Shining Spears, and a unit of Dark Reapers. My opponent also had an Air Wing of 3 Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarchs and a Vanguard of Harlequins with a Shadowseer, 2 Death Jesters, a Solitaire, and a 6-model unit of Skyweavers. I ended up getting first turn, which was huge, as I was able to wipe out the Reapers and some other stuff, drop one of my Stasis Bombs on the Spears and then use that same Dark Talon to gank the Farseer. My Leviathan also fired into the Spears, but my opponent popped Lightning-Fast Reactions and thus I didn't kill very many. My snipers also did quite a bit of work over the course of the game, taking out one of the Death Jesters and putting wounds on other units. I won the game by 6 points.

In game 2 I faced Chaos Daemons, with 3 big blobs of Plaguebearers, 3 20-man Pink Horror squads, a 25-man Bloodletter squad, 2 Nurgling units, a Khorne Prince with the big axe, and an assortment of other characters. My opponent put all of the Horrors and the Letters in reserve along with a Changecaster, and he got first turn, moving up the Plaguebearers surrounding the characters. On my turn, I managed to wipe one Plaguebearer unit and kill a Spoilpox Scrivener with the Eliminators. Once my opponent's reserves came in, things got pretty hairy. He kept the Letters off until turn 3, but the Horrors dropped in, killed a couple of units with their shooting and then wrapped some other stuff so that I couldn't shoot them. I foolishly charged my Land Speeder characters into one unit, killing a bunch of them in combat, but my opponent used command points to keep them from running away and thus my characters were unable to overwatch the Prince when he charged and killed Sammy and one of the Talonmasters, who used Only in Death Does Duty End to put some wounds on the Prince. I ultimately ended up losing the game by 3 points because I fell behind and couldn't catch up, despite the fact that I had killed most of my opponent's models and still had 2 planes and a few other models on the table. My Eliminators were probably my MVPs in this game, as they killed several characters by themselves.

My third game was against White Scars. Not a super optimized list and I don't remember all the details, but I got seized on and lost one of my planes, both Scout units, and one squad of Eliminators in the first turn. On my turn, I exploited a gap my opponent left and used my remaining Dark Talon to smush Kor'sarro Khan. That plane somehow survived the whole game (ending it on just one wound remaining) despite it being fired on a number of times. The game was fairly brutal with only a few models left on the table at the end. I won pretty handily (I think the margin was 12 points), but it could easily have gone either way.

Game 4 saw me facing an Imperial soup list being run by a friend of mine. He had a Knight Crusader, a Vanguard of Space Wolves including 2 Invictor Warsuits and a unit of Wulfen, and a pair of characters, and a Battalion of Astra Militarum including 3 Veteran squads in vehicles. I got seized on again and that was huge, as I had deployed fairly aggressively since in this particular ITC mission I deployed first and thus was going to go first except for that. I ended up getting beat handily, but I think if I had gone first I could have won. Sometimes that's just the way luck happens though.

Game 5 was vs. the dreaded Alaitoc flyer list, and it went about as well as you'd expect. My worst loss of the event, but I honestly did better than the last time I faced Alaitoc flyers with Dark Angels. That list is just a hard counter for us right now.

So, a 2-3 record for my Dark Angels. It could have been worse. I feel like my list did what it was supposed to do, so maybe my losses were more due to pilot error than bad units. I had fun and I was the best Dark Angels player, but I got that by default since I was the only player at the event running Dark Angels.

My takeaways after the event:
-Eliminators are cash money. I'll most likely always run 3 units in my lists. Character based lists are fairly popular with the new Marines and a fair few Daemon and GSC builds, so it's handy to be able to put pressure on them.
-Dark Talons are still a solid investment. A tad overcosted perhaps, but they put in work in every game except the last one (where they both got killed before I even got to move).
-Infiltrators are kind of hit and miss. In some games they are nice to have thanks to the 12" bubble of no deepstrikes, but that ability is useless against many lists. Probably not worth the points.
-Sammael and the Talonmasters are great, especially vs. hordes. The rerolls are handy to have, and they can do well in CC too. Always take the relic swords on the Talonmasters if possible.
-It's definitely worth making a detachment with Ravenwing into the Attack Squadron detachment, as it gives access to the second relic sword as well as the Signal the Attack stratagem, which comes in very handy if there are hit modifiers around.
-Leviathan Dreadnoughts kick total ass! Honestly given how popular they are I'm expecting a price bump in this year's Chapter Approved. Just a very good unit all around. Try not to get locked in combat though unless you have 2 CP for Intractable.

So it's been revealed that the Inquisition "Index Imperialis," in WD will contain actually usable stratagems, relics, and a new psychic tree.

AFAIK that makes the DA "Index Astartes," the only WD rules supplement released so far that did not contain matched play rules.

Not really much to add I'm just salty and looking to vent.

abyrn wrote:
So it's been revealed that the Inquisition "Index Imperialis," in WD will contain actually usable stratagems, relics, and a new psychic tree.

AFAIK that makes the DA "Index Astartes," the only WD rules supplement released so far that did not contain matched play rules.

So not the end of the world

I am thinking about making a list based on some infiltrators (2x5), Eliminators (2x3) and Invictors (2).
But I don't want to lose the dark angels vibe.
Any ideas what would go well with these?

Aeri wrote:
I am thinking about making a list based on some infiltrators (2x5), Eliminators (2x3) and Invictors (2).
But I don't want to lose the dark angels vibe.
Any ideas what would go well with these?

Your best bet would be taking plasma inceptors along with a phobos leutenant for the Target priority warlord trait. That will allow you to overcharge plasma without any risks since it give +1 to hit

Isn't the plasma Executioner better?

Aeri wrote:
Isn't the plasma Executioner better?

There is always the risk that plasma executioner will get killed before it even shoots.

Plasma inceptors along with phobos leutenant will be safe in reserves

Aeri wrote:
I am thinking about making a list based on some infiltrators (2x5), Eliminators (2x3) and Invictors (2).
But I don't want to lose the dark angels vibe.
Any ideas what would go well with these?

If you want to keep the DA feel, definitely take something with plasma. I'll echo Timur above and recommend Inceptors with the obligatory Phobos LT.

Also, I'd go with 3 units of Eliminators. They are just so good right now, especially with character-dependent lists being very prevalent (Marines, GSC, Orks, even Chaos all use plenty of characters for buffs and psychic powers).

I played in a team tournament over the weekend with a Deathwing setup. It's going to be my go to from now on. It was 1k lists.

I brought:
Ezekiel
7 Deathwing Knights
2 Venerable Dreadnoughts with Twin Lascannons and DCCW
Land Raider Crusader

Went 2 wins and 1 draw. The draw would have been another win but ran out of time. It was super resilient and I don't think anyone in their right mind would charge those dreadnoughts now.

In one game alone they killed a 3 man Thunder Wolf cav squad with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, a squad of Assault Terminators, a Cataphracti Captain, a 5 man Grey Hunters squad and a Las Razorback.