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I figure if you go for a nine man Deathwing Squad then you might as well go to ten. Second heavy weapon if you are inclined and you can combat squad if the situation warrants.

Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
You can fill up a lot of more space with the bigger unit... Yes, you suffer the 3 hit blasts but avoiding the 6 hit blasts that saturate faster your Armor Save...

And more important than anything else, you have a bigger, much bigger return of investment with the Stratagems.

 Cybtroll wrote:
Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
You can fill up a lot of more space with the bigger unit... Yes, you suffer the 3 hit blasts but avoiding the 6 hit blasts that saturate faster your Armor Save...

And more important than anything else, you have a bigger, much bigger return of investment with the Stratagems.

Sure, but sometimes you have some objectives to grab. It’s nice to have options.

 Cybtroll wrote:
Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.

So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).

Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.

So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).

Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.

Aren't these two different issues? Outriders don't (currently?) get Jink as the Ravenwing and Jink rules are separate things in the Dark Angels FAQ, but the Pennant of Remembrance just needs a Deathwing Ancient model, which the Ancient in Terminator Armour is via the Deathwing Command Squad rule.

Jarval wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.

So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).

Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.

Aren't these two different issues? Outriders don't (currently?) get Jink as the Ravenwing and Jink rules are separate things in the Dark Angels FAQ, but the Pennant of Remembrance just needs a Deathwing Ancient model, which the Ancient in Terminator Armour is via the Deathwing Command Squad rule.

Agree with Jarval. The Index and Codex interactions are a little loose right now, but the new SM Codex entry for the Ancient in Terminator Armour refers to him as a Deathwing Ancient in the Deathwing Command Squad text in the Abilities section. Good enough for me!

 Smirrors wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.

So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).

Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.

He has the ANCIENT keyword, and he gets the DEATHWING keyword if taken in a Dark Angels detachment. Ergo, for purposes of the Pennant of Remembrance he is a Deathwing Ancient. RAW he does not get Inner Circle though.

So we're able to take Centurions now it appears? Does that make much of an impact as far as the Dark Angel roster goes?

I've only used them in one game, but I like the concept of the Deathwing Command Squad. As I list build for an upcoming tournament, the freedom it opens up in the Elites FOC is great, especially at low points levels (<1000) when you might want to run a Patrol to focus points on Deathwing Terminators.

The Ravenwing version of moving Black Knights to Elites and then having the support Characters not taking an Elites Slot if the BK are taken is also helpful. Moving the BK to Elites struck me as a mixed blessing, but it does free up at least one precious Fast Attack slot if you want to make a Ravenwing-heavy Battalion.

Do our Deathwing Terminators get the Teleport Homer?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Do our Deathwing Terminators get the Teleport Homer?

Not currently RAW, but hopefully a FAQ will fix it. Along with Inner Circle and Jink on the appropriate Codex:SM units.

Master of Sanctity on Bike. Wise Orator. Redication of Focus and Catechism of Fire on 3 Typhoon Speeders.

The dice rolls get funny after a while...

Just realized that he can't do that with the Speeders. After thinking about how OP this combo is that makes sense.

 Reivax26 wrote:
Just realized that he can't do that with the Speeders. After thinking about how OP this combo is that makes sense.

Catechism of Fire could still be funny on a Talonmaster. It works since that power works on Core or Characters. Just not as crazy OP as it would be on a unit of Speeders.

That being said, it could be great to use that combo on a big unit of Ravenwing Black Knights. Let them move up, shoot the absolute crap out of something, and then charge and melee the crap out of something else. I have a Primaris Bike Chappy, so maybe I'll try it sometime.

Has anyone tested lists yet?

Im running this 2K list tomorrow:

1 Bike Master with Teeth of Terra/Obsec trait
1 Master of Sanctity Wise Orator

1 Infil and 2 Incursors

1 RW Chief Apoth
5 DW Knights
5 DW Knights
2 DW Command
1 DW Ancient w Banner
5 BG Vets

5 Plasceptors
3 Erads
1 Shieldpulsor

Half the army starts off the board, 3 assault units to go hunt and hold objectives with some character support sprinkled into each attack.

Recent Goonhammer article has a couple of RTT-winning Dark Angels lists in it, among many other lists: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-codex/

TL;DR: In the first list, we see a fair number of Deathwing Terminators (who'da thunk, right? ) along with a unit of Plasma Inceptors. A couple of the non-DA lists had Plasma Inceptors as well, so it looks like they are still pretty strong even without Weapons from the Dark Age. He's also got a Whirlwind for objective holding and non-LOS shooting, which is something I've become convinced is extremely nice to have if not totally necessary for success. And of course, it looks like modern DA tournament lists don't leave home without the Ravenwing Chief Apothecary, and this list is no exception.

In the second one, the player has maxed out on Invader ATVs and apparently they are amazing. A couple of Deathwing Knight units and a big brick of Stalker Intercessors with Azrael are the other main features. That's something I've been thinking about a lot myself, as a number of Iron Hands lists run a brick of Intercessors next to Feirros, and Azrael is kind of a better Feirros in a way.

Another unit that seems to be very popular in Marine lists in general (not just DA) is the Primaris Chaplain on Bike, with the Master of Sanctity upgrade. Makes me glad I picked up one of those models on kind of an impulse, as the litanies apparently buff certain units into the stratosphere.

Yeah its not far off my list. I like the BGV and Impulsor for that huge turn 1 charge to grab an early objective and threat.

In my test game the Ancient didnt do as well as the opposition was packing two multi melta dev squads who just burnt through the 5+++ with huge damage.

So something I noticed that seemed odd in the new SM codex is that DA Company Veterans could take combat shields without it replacing any other wargear, allowing them to essentially 'dual wield' and have a shield on top of that. Is there a fix for this somewhere?

 Smirrors wrote:
Yeah its not far off my list. I like the BGV and Impulsor for that huge turn 1 charge to grab an early objective and threat.

In my test game the Ancient didnt do as well as the opposition was packing two multi melta dev squads who just burnt through the 5+++ with huge damage.

How do you get a turn 1 charge with an impulsor? Thought you can't charge after moving ?!

Played in a four-round 16-player Escalation tourney today. The format was games at 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 points and you had to build from what you started with (so no dropping units). I went with a Deathwing theme. List building was a puzzle for me - many compromises.

Game 1 vs Ork REO Speedwagon. I had Azrael, a five-man Intercessor Squad, a three-man Bladeguard Veteran Squad, an Attack Bike and a three-man Eradicator Squad. He had three dragsters (one character) and a Truk-Boyz mob. I had first turn, and my Eradicators and Attack Bike took down a dragster and wounded his warlord. He came at me, but Transhuman on the Bladeguard kept them around, not to mention Azrael's invul bubble on the Eradicators. Some fancy sword work and melta-rifling and the Ork vehicles were in pieces. Azrael and the Bladeguard hustled across the board, the Bladeguard deploying scamblers along the way. Oaths of Moment were, for the most part, met. A good start, made possible by some good early shooting.

Game 2 vs Necrons. At 1000 points I added a ten-man Deathwing Terminator Squad, which I combat-squadded for this game. He had two big blocks of Warriors, Lychguard, a Doomstalker thing and some characters. Once again I had first turn, but my shooting completely whiffed against his Doomstalker. My Attack Bike went down, but my Terminators shrugged off the fire coming their way. The Bladeguard and Azrael chopped through the Lychguard and an Ovelord, while Terminators and the Eradicators took down the Doomstalker and the Warriors. Scramblers were deployed, Monsters were Brought Down and Oaths of Moment were fulfilled.

Game 3 vs Tau. I added two squads of Intercessors, a Dreadnought and a Ravenwing Apothecary with the Master upgrade and the Relic that debuffs Invuls by 1. He had a Riptide, some Commanders, drones and a bunch of firewarriors. My opponent was quite sad at the end of his first shooting phase when only one Deathwing Terminator was dead. I almost felt bad reviving that Terminator. Almost.Terminators cleared out Drones, and while the Eradicators went down they did cripple the Riptide. The Deathwing cleared out the rest of the Tau, supported ably by Intercessor fire. Oaths of Moment were fulfilled, and Scramblers were deployed. And Monsters were Brought Down.

Game 4 vs Harlequins. A Dark Talon, Deathwing Knights and a Deathwing Ancient came in (I had skimped at the 1500 level). He had three squads of troops in transports, three big blocks of speeder-bikes and a bunch of characters. He had first turn, and was all over me with bikes and a skimmer. The Deathwing smashed a big bike squad and a troop of Harlies and their transport, supported by Azrael, the Ancient with the Banner and the debuff to invul Apothecary. The Bladeguard and Eradicators combo'd to take down a transport and the squad inside, the Bladeguard dying in the centre of the board to the characters after fulfilling their Oaths of Moment. The table was set for the Dark Talon who came in from Strategic Reserve and started deleting Harlies. The Deathwing Knights came in and took the Vital Ground in the enemy deployment zone. The Harlies were tabled by Turn 4. The Dark Talon's holding cell filled with "Assasinated" characters destined for the Question on the Rock. Squeezing four clowns into the holding bay was no mean feat. But we did it. I can't wait for the look on Asmodai's face.

I won the tournament - first time! A fun tourney with a good spread of armies (four Necrons, two Harlies, two Tau, Orks, CSM and then flavours of SM). Deathwing Terminators with Azrael, an Ancient with the 5+++ Relic and an Apothecary are super durable and able to take the mid-field, survive the worst the enemy can throw at them and kill stuff. The Dark Talon is great against those who live by their Invuls. The Watched Warlord trait on the Ancient was well worth the CP to be able to say "Not today Satan" to that power that the enem was really counting on. The Ravenwing Apothecary was also great. I was worried about CP taking a Vanguard for the last three Missions, but Deathwing now have most of their goodness baked into them. I still burned through the CP that I had. This is the way.

Oaths of Moment has been a solid Secondary. Deploy Scramblers can be tricky but the strat to shoot and still be able to do an action makes it more tenable.

Sounds like a good time! Congrats on the tourney win.

As for Oaths of Moment, I tried it recently and if you can't take and hold the center it's kind of a lame duck. Trying to shift a bunch of Death Guard vehicles with all kinds of buffs on them out of the center is nearly impossible, Deathwing Knights be damned. That being said, I still want to try and make Terminators work. That permanent TransPhys on them is too good not to take full advantage of. Main thing I'm trying to figure out is what to run with them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sounds like a good time! Congrats on the tourney win.

As for Oaths of Moment, I tried it recently and if you can't take and hold the center it's kind of a lame duck. Trying to shift a bunch of Death Guard vehicles with all kinds of buffs on them out of the center is nearly impossible, Deathwing Knights be damned. That being said, I still want to try and make Terminators work. That permanent TransPhys on them is too good not to take full advantage of. Main thing I'm trying to figure out is what to run with them.

I'm finding that you need to be able to score at least 10 points on each of the Secondaries, but of course maxing is better! Some opponent's armies offer Secondaries more than others. Oaths of Moment, for me, is a choice when the opponent's list does not offer easy Secondaries. Let's say you avoid failing morale and falling back for the game (so 5VP), you kill two characters and a vehicle over three turns (3 more VP if its one a turn), you have a unit wholly within 6"of the centre for one turn and you are at 10 VPs. I've found it remarkably reliable - I maxed it out twice last weekend. Now I've cursed myself...I am curious what we'll get for Faction Secondaries. Maybe something about taking characters in melee?

So far, Eradicators have been good support options for my Deathwing. They deal with vehicles letting the Deathwing handle crowd control. Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas serve a dual purpose - hitting vehicles and serving as a beacon for the Deathwing.

Played a 2k game against Necrons yesterday. He called it at the top of 4. Dark Angels won 54 to 22.

Azrael
Belial

10 man Deathwing Command Squad with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolter and Power Fist, 2 Storm Bolter and Chainfist, Sgt with Storm Bolter and Power Sword

Deathwing Apothecary

2 10 man Tactical Squads. Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Combi Plasma Sgt.

5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolters

Dev Squad with 4 Lascannons
Dev Squad with 2 Lascannons and 2 Missile Launchers
6 Eradicators

2 Drop Pods

So 1st turn I move blocked with the drop pods and started opening fire on everything in range. I combat tactics the Terminators, leaving the 2 Cyclones and 3 Storm Bolter around Azrael and the 6 Eradicators. That block moved towards the center and dominated it the rest of the game.

Funniest part was when Belial and 2 Power Fist Terminators killed 8 Necron Warriors in one charge.

Finished a 2 taday torunament yesterday, 4 games, 20 attendees. I got 4th place with this list:

My list:


Other Dark angels list that got to first place:



My takeaways:
1. 10 man terminator squad backed up by an ancient with 5+ FNP relic and an apothecary is a solid choice.
In my games i always deployed them forward, then footslogged to the center and just sat there getting 3 VP a turn for Oath of atonement secondary.
Usually they should be wholy within center by your second turn so its 12 VP almost guaranteed, kill a few characters vehicles or monsters to get it to 15 VPs
As far as i know the other guy also used this secondary almost in every game.
My squad also included 2 termies with shields. This squad survived in all 4 games, they just refuse to die, and each turn you can revive your shield terminators

2. Interrogator chaplain with deathwing knights
Spend 2cp for +2 to charge rolls making it 7+ charge, you can even combine it with Combined assault stratagem and charge on a 4+.
And if chaplain makes the charge then you also get +3 for pile in and consolidation moves, this is just insane

3. Whirlwind with castellan launcher - very usefull for clearing opponents home objectives. Sometimes such objectives can be guarded by weak units like scarabs or something

In my games i always went for deploy scramblers secondary since its so easy to score using infiltrators

I included sammael in my list since apothecary will be following 10 man terminator squad so he cant be used with combined assault stratagem
Sammael combined with full throttle stratagem allows you to deepstrike your deathwing knights almost anywwhere you want, provided that you cleared screens on your first turn

Landspeeder vengeance for some additional fire power and

Based on what GW said in today's online preview, it looks like there will be some kind of Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and Ravenwing Outrider Detachment, which will give certain units ObSec. Presumably this will only apply to a detachment in which every unit has the appropriate keyword. This could be big for anyone who wants to run a pure Deathwing or Ravenwing army. Also they confirmed that our supplement will release early in January.

My all Deathwing army is sounding better and better.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Based on what GW said in today's online preview, it looks like there will be some kind of Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and Ravenwing Outrider Detachment, which will give certain units ObSec. Presumably this will only apply to a detachment in which every unit has the appropriate keyword. This could be big for anyone who wants to run a pure Deathwing or Ravenwing army. Also they confirmed that our supplement will release early in January.

I missed the stream itself so this is the first time I am hearing of it. If this is indeed the case then good times ahead for my DW/RW army Objective secured* Terminators are really good!

While an army consisting of the equivalent of a vanguard and an outrider would be quite heavy on the detachment cp tax, it could very well be powerful enough to justify. Fingers crossed

I've been playing DW since the Angels of Death codex for 2nd ed, and I'm now convinced this is the most powerful/viable we have ever been! (here's hoping my nids get the same treatment )

I'm honestly worried that GW is overdoing it, and our spot in the sun will be brief before being nerfed. I mean, it's a decade that I amused to uphill battles...

The current DW and RW seems to work really fine, I fear that ObSec will make them bonkers and destined to a point hike in 2021. We'll see

As I've said numerous times, the main thing I want from our supplement is Jink for our Ravenwing units that are in the main codex instead of just on our unique stuff. The Invader ATVs would really be a nightmare then, especially if they also give us Speed of the Raven again.

From what little I've heard about the Blood Angels supplement, it seems their strats all got changed around a bit and they lost a couple of their signature tricks (3d6 charge is no longer a thing, apparently, but don't quote me on that as I haven't watched any reviews in depth yet). The same may happen to our guys as well, in that we might lose some of our 8th edition stuff but might gain some new tools.

We'll, in e already lost a number of signature Stratagems (Weapons of the Dark Age for example) bit I will trade those one-trick pony everyday for better unit rules.

Bu I agree the integration or Ravenwing on Deathwing with standard units of Codex: Space Marine is really lacking, I would be surprised if they don't fix it, even considering the usually low GW standards