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Has anyone ever tried fielding this tactic?

It goes like this:
-Get about 20 Last Chancers from the back of the IG book, upgrade them all to psychers for +5 pts. ea
-Buy an Inquisitor HQ ally
-Buy a Cullexus Assassin ally

-Infiltrate the Last Chancers and the assassin in a good spot and hopefully go to town with the assassin's BS5, S5 AP2 pistol that will shoot something like 22 times...

Of course, you've got to find a way to use the psychers efficiently, though some of their powers aren't that bad (though you're rolling on LD 7, but meh at least you're fearless); running CC backup would probably be ideal.

I know it sounds very janky and downright silly, but think about it- if you manage to make use of those psychers, you've essentially gained 20 S5 AP2 range 12 shots for free, which isn't that bad, right?

Anyway, help me find a way to make this work!

Alright, worked out an Army List to get this ball rolling:

*Special Rules*
-Schaeffer, Kage, and 20 Last Chancers count as 1 HQ and 2 Troops selections via their special rules
-Kage's 5+ save is invulnerable
-All units are fearless as long as Schaeffer is alive
-Sub Units (Schaeffer, Kage, and the Last Chancers can be divided into up to 5 sub units, any number of models in each)
-All have Infiltrate
-All have Deep Strike
-The Culexus Assassin's Animus Speculum (Range 12, S5, AP1, Assault 2) gets +1 assault for every Psycher within 12 inches.
-The Culexus Assassin is Souless (every model within 12in has it's LD reduced to 7.

+++HQ+++
Colonel Schaeffer: 75 pts.
-->Equipment: (comes with) Power sword, plasma pistol, carapace armor, bionics, macharian cross, medallion crimson.
Kage: 35 pts.
-->Equipment: (comes with) bolt pistol, close combat weapon, 5+ inv sv.
Daemonhunters Inquisitor: not sure yet

+++Elites+++
Culexus Assassin: 105 pts.

+++Troops+++
20 Last Chancers (11 base ea.): 420pts.
-->Stuff: Specialists (+5pts. ea.), Psychers (+5pts. ea.)

So that all comes to 635pts.
Focusing on what we can do with the Last Chancers, here's their basic stat line:
WS3, BS4, S3, T3, W1, I3, A2, LD8, Sv 5+, Equipment: lasgun or shotgun or laspistol+CCW

-being Specialists, they can each purchase up to 15 points from the IG Armory, *including* officer-only items. Some notable choices are: Carapace Armor (4+ Sv) @ 5pts. ea., Bolters @ 1pt. ea., power weapons @ 5pt. ea. So I'm not sure what's worth it here, but giving all 20 Last Chancers 4+ saves for another 100 points seems like it might be worth it. And 20 points for 20 bolters (BS4!) might be worth it as well.

Problem is, I'm not sure what to do with the Last Chancers. Should I go CC or short-ranged shooty? BTW, the "useful" psychic powers they can get are either D3 S3 power weapon attacks in CC, or 24in D6 S3 shots. They can also get a psychic hood-like effect, essentially a 4+ save vs psychic powers, if it targets them.

Having 2 attacks base each, and the ability to get a pistol and ccw free, makes me want to run them in a CC manner, though the WS3 S3 I3 isn't too good.

Anyway, I welcome suggestions other than those along the lines of "this is slowed, make like a banana and go kill yourself!"

As you said, WS/S/I 3 doesn't exactly spell "CC monsters" to me, 2+1 attacks or no.

Hmmmm, looks very good on paper, but you have to concider that after the carapase, and the bolters and the DH inquisitor this list is going to be at around 1k points, and not a pice of armour, lascannon or plasmagun in sight.
But in a non-tournament approach, hell yes, this is awesome, Id do it just to see the look on my oppenents face!
And i would like to help you make a good list with this, if only i still had my ig codex.... But ill think about it anyway

I personally load out my 20 Last Chancers with Master-Crafted Plasmaguns. Costs a bundle but pumping out 40 shots at a re-rollable BS4 when deepstriking is pretty nasty. Of course, you can't do that and make them Psykers

But you're missing three important things:

One, the IG FAQ says that you can only not take the required HQ Platoon provided you are running a pure Last Chancers army (and adding allies makes that open to debate).

Two, you'll have to buy everything else from your Allies list, which is extremely limited (no Heavy Support, for example).

And three, Last Chancers aren't Fearless and don't test on Ld7. Read their rules again. When I use mine, everyone jokes that they're Fearless-Plus!

Posted By Stu-Rat on 08/02/2007 3:52 AM
I personally load out my 20 Last Chancers with Master-Crafted Plasmaguns. Costs a bundle but pumping out 40 shots at a re-rollable BS4 when deepstriking is pretty nasty. Of course, you can't do that and make them Psykers

But you're missing three important things:

One, the IG FAQ says that you can only not take the required HQ Platoon provided you are running a pure Last Chancers army (and adding allies makes that open to debate).

Two, you'll have to buy everything else from your Allies list, which is extremely limited (no Heavy Support, for example).

And three, Last Chancers aren't Fearless and don't test on Ld7. Read their rules again. When I use mine, everyone jokes that they're Fearless-Plus!

Thanks for your input <3

1: Just took a look at that FAQ myself. I believe it means using the Last Chancers as your 3 core required choices when referring to an "All Last Chancers" army; no way in hell can that mean an army only consisting of Last Chancers, think about it- it's almost impossible to get that to even reach 1000 points.........

2: If this were the case, however, I've been doing some thinking, and running 3 units of Grey Knights could be pretty rad (2 as troops, 1 as fast attack deep striking), as their justicars count as psychers for the assassin's pistol as well AND they would provide that nice CC buff this list may certainly need. Anyway I'll probably decide on including some units of Grey Knights either way

3: As written in my IG Codex: "While the Colonel is alive all sub-units will automatically pass any Morale, Leadership or Pinning tests they have to make."... how is this different from Fearless? Hold on a sec... are you suggesting...they....automatically... pass.... their... psychic... tests...!?!??!! That would indeed be lovely

-I noticed that we can also equip the Last Chancers with Storm Bolters at 5pts. ea. from the IG Armory, now hey that might be worth it!

-Also, on what to equip the Inquisitor with: (btw, he's also a psycher ) Here's my plan-
Inquisitor: 92 pts.
-->Base (45 pts.) Equipment: Emperor's Tarot (15 pts.), Psycannon (30 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)
Retinue: 149 pts.
-->3 Gun-Servitors (30 pts.) with 3 Heavy Bolters (45 pts.), 2 Mystics (12 pts.), 2 Sages (20 pts.), 3 Acolytes (24pts.) with Carapace Armor (15 pts.) and Bolters (3 pts.)

I decided to make him and his retinue a fire base, seeing as they lack the ability to infiltrate and get close to the enemy (and I also think they can shoot much better than they can perform in CC). With a Psycannon and 3 HB, that's 12 nice shots at good BS (with a re-roll!) and range 36 that can be auspexed onto infiltrators and mystic'ed onto deep strikers/summons. I decided it'd be wise to include the Acolytes with Carapace Armor so the unit won't drop to enemy fire too easily. I do plan on sitting them in cover and keeping them there, so lets pretend they all have 4+ or 5+ invulnerable saves

Anyway the Inquisitor and his Retinue add another 241 points. I guess the best bet here is to try for a 1500 point list with Grey Knights, so I present this list:

+++HQ+++
Colonel Schaeffer: 75 pts.
-->(comes with) Power sword, plasma pistol, carapace armor, bionics, macharian cross, medallion crimson.
Kage: 35 pts.
-->(comes with) bolt pistol, close combat weapon, 5+ inv sv.
Daemonhunters Inquisitor: not sure yet

Inquisitor: 92 pts.
-->Base (45 pts.) Equipment: Emperor's Tarot (15 pts.), Psycannon (30 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)
Retinue: 149 pts.
-->3 Gun-Servitors (30 pts.) with 3 Heavy Bolters (45 pts.), 2 Mystics (12 pts.), 2 Sages (20 pts.), 3 Acolytes (24pts.) with Carapace Armor (15 pts.) and Bolters (3 pts.)

+++Elites+++
Culexus Assassin: 105 pts.

Hardened Veterans: 115 pts.
-->10 Base (85 pts.), 3 meltaguns (30 pts.), shotguns (free)

+++Troops+++
20 Last Chancers: 620pts.
-->20 Base (220 pts.), Specialists (5 pts. ea.), Psychers (5 pts. ea.), Carapace Armor (5 pts. ea.), Storm Bolters (5 pts. ea.)

Grey Knight Squad: 152 pts.
-->4 Base (100 pts.), Justicar (50 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)

Grey Knight Squad: 152 pts.
-->4 Base (100 pts.), Justicar (50 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)

Total: 1495 pts.

So... that's a lot of "mediocre" firepower, with 30 Storm Bolters, a Psycannon, 3 Heavy Bolters, then the Assault 2billion S5 AP1 pistol
The Hardened Veterans are there for the anti-armor with 3 meltaguns. I feel that the Grey Knights will provide a nice CC bonus in case I'll need it. What do you think of the list?

-also, if Stu-Rat is correct and I can only select allies, I'll lose the Veterans, drop a few points somewhere and add in the 3rd Grey Knight Squad (as Fast Attack)

*edit* Also, keep in mind that 1 out of 6 (on average) of the Last Chancers will roll the psychic ability that allows them to do this: "Make one close combat attack against the vehicle instead of any other attacks. If a hit is scored, roll a D6: 1-3 = No Effect, 4-5 = Glancing Hit, 6 = Penetrating Hit".

The Last Chancers are meant to represent a small suicide force, reminiscent of the Dirty Dozen. They shouldn't be the size of a regular army. Regardless, the FAQ means exactly what it says. If you include anything in your army that is not a 'Last Chancer', then you're required to field a Command Platoon.

Posted By Ghaz on 08/02/2007 10:01 AM

1: Just took a look at that FAQ myself. I believe it means using the Last Chancers as your 3 core required choices when referring to an "All Last Chancers" army; no way in hell can that mean an army only consisting of Last Chancers, think about it- it's almost impossible to get that to even reach 1000 points.........

The Last Chancers are meant to represent a small suicide force, reminiscent of the Dirty Dozen. They shouldn't be the size of a regular army. Regardless, the FAQ means exactly what it says. If you include anything in your army that is not a 'Last Chancer', then you're required to field a Command Platoon.

Well then, this being a very critical matter, I'd like to know what everyones' opinions are on this, and whether or not you can run Last Chancers with allies (and nothing else), and what you've seen in tournaments if you've ever seen the Last Chancers run in any.

What you can do is get an IG Jr. Officer as your second HQ, maybe arm it with 4 melta/plama.  Then use the loophole that allows you to take a Witch Hunter Elite Inquisitior to enable a Daemon Hunter Elite Temple Assassin (though I don't know if people are still allowing this as I've never done it.)

Posted By kadun on 08/02/2007 12:51 PM
What you can do is get an IG Jr. Officer as your second HQ, maybe arm it with 4 melta/plama.  Then use the loophole that allows you to take a Witch Hunter Elite Inquisitior to enable a Daemon Hunter Elite Temple Assassin (though I don't know if people are still allowing this as I've never done it.)

Just like how a Witchhunter Inquisitor cannot buy wargear from the Daemonhunter list, you cannot use an Inquisitor from one list to buy an assassin from another list.

 

 

You must have an IG Command Platoon if you are fielding non-Last Chancer models.

Give at least one a, 'invisible' force weapon, preferably with honorifica imperialis mundanus, pay for it by dropping some storm bolters.

Posted By KeithGatchalian on 08/02/2007 1:55 PM

Posted By kadun on 08/02/2007 12:51 PM
What you can do is get an IG Jr. Officer as your second HQ, maybe arm it with 4 melta/plama.  Then use the loophole that allows you to take a Witch Hunter Elite Inquisitior to enable a Daemon Hunter Elite Temple Assassin (though I don't know if people are still allowing this as I've never done it.)

Just like how a Witchhunter Inquisitor cannot buy wargear from the Daemonhunter list, you cannot use an Inquisitor from one list to buy an assassin from another list.

I'll have to check my codecies at home, but I believe the listing under the Temple Assissins simply list an "Inquisitor" as required.  Making no distinction between Witch Hunter or Daemon Hunter.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/02/2007 9:12 AM
1: Just took a look at that FAQ myself. I believe it means using the Last Chancers as your 3 core required choices when referring to an "All Last Chancers" army; no way in hell can that mean an army only consisting of Last Chancers, think about it- it's almost impossible to get that to even reach 1000 points......... 

Actually, it's really easy to get to 1,000 points. Past it even. I think the max you can spend on Last Chancers is around 1,450. It's a crap list, but easy to do.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/02/2007 9:12 AM
3: As written in my IG Codex: "While the Colonel is alive all sub-units will automatically pass any Morale, Leadership or Pinning tests they have to make."... how is this different from Fearless? Hold on a sec... are you suggesting...they....automatically... pass.... their... psychic... tests...!?!??!! That would indeed be lovely

Yep. All Leadership checks. Target priority, psychic tests, morale, pinning, Mind War, etc.. Anything you name, if you test on Ld, you pass automatically.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/02/2007 9:12 AM
+++HQ+++
Colonel Schaeffer: 75 pts.
-->(comes with) Power sword, plasma pistol, carapace armor, bionics, macharian cross, medallion crimson.
Kage: 35 pts.
-->(comes with) bolt pistol, close combat weapon, 5+ inv sv.
Daemonhunters Inquisitor: not sure yet

Inquisitor: 92 pts.
-->Base (45 pts.) Equipment: Emperor's Tarot (15 pts.), Psycannon (30 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)
Retinue: 149 pts.
-->3 Gun-Servitors (30 pts.) with 3 Heavy Bolters (45 pts.), 2 Mystics (12 pts.), 2 Sages (20 pts.), 3 Acolytes (24pts.) with Carapace Armor (15 pts.) and Bolters (3 pts.)

+++Elites+++
Culexus Assassin: 105 pts.

Hardened Veterans: 115 pts.
-->10 Base (85 pts.), 3 meltaguns (30 pts.), shotguns (free)

+++Troops+++
20 Last Chancers: 620pts.
-->20 Base (220 pts.), Specialists (5 pts. ea.), Psychers (5 pts. ea.), Carapace Armor (5 pts. ea.), Storm Bolters (5 pts. ea.)

Grey Knight Squad: 152 pts.
-->4 Base (100 pts.), Justicar (50 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)

Grey Knight Squad: 152 pts.
-->4 Base (100 pts.), Justicar (50 pts.), Auspex (2 pts.)

Total: 1495 pts.

Yeah, unfortunately whatever side you take in the Last-Chancers-Only argument, this list is illegal. Either you can't take Allies, in which case you have, or you can but need to take the required IG HQ Platoon first, which you haven't.

...tartar sauce!

Why would GW make such an option from a mainstream codex that can't really be fielded in any battles above 1000 points? *tear*

*trying to think of other cheap ways to accumulate psychers*

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/02/2007 9:57 PM
Why would GW make such an option from a mainstream codex that can't really be fielded in any battles above 1000 points? *tear*

As I said in my previous post, you can field a Last-Chancers-only army in battles above 1,000 points. You can just about get to 1,500 with them.

Besides which, you can take Last Chancers with any regular IG army.

Pretty simple reason why, really.

Posted By Stu-Rat on 08/03/2007 3:19 AM

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/02/2007 9:57 PM
Why would GW make such an option from a mainstream codex that can't really be fielded in any battles above 1000 points? *tear*

As I said in my previous post, you can field a Last-Chancers-only army in battles above 1,000 points. You can just about get to 1,500 with them.

Besides which, you can take Last Chancers with any regular IG army.

Pretty simple reason why, really.

Right, thanks for pointing out my stupidity, for some reason I completely forgot you can field them with regular IG. *slaps forehead repeatedly*

...back to the drawing board -.-

To use a psy power, you take a psychic test, not a leadership test. You roll under your leadership, but it is still a psy test.

So no auto pass for you....

Mind war is also not a leadership test, you roll a die and add your leadership... that is different.

Psychic tests are leadership tests: "To represent the dangers of the Warp, if a Psyker rolls a 2 or 12 when taking the Leadership test to use a psychic power, he is attacked." (BGB pg. 52)

Ah, right you are. thanks

I would argue that you pass your leadership test, but you still have to roll in case you get a 2 or 12. After all you can pass your leadership test AND suffer Perils.

So is it possible or not? I want to see my 20 last chancers + 20 mastercrafted plasma guns + 22 Assassin shots! What is that, 40 rerolled BS4 plasmashots? Break them into subunits and it's not such a bad idea...

Orlanth, interesting argument, but I disagree. If you automatically pass a test, that means you do not need to roll for it. If you do not need to roll for it, you cannot get Perils. This is similar to how a plasma weapon performing Death or Glory against a tank will never Get Hot (it automatically hits, and thus does not need to roll).

Eh...
you automatically pass... you can't fail... but other things can happen. I think the roll is still needed.


Or else Wraithlords become *harder* to hit when they fail their wraithsight tests.
If genestealers autohit, and thus can't roll, they can't rend. So by your reading of the process, a wraithlord stunned into immobility woiuld become invulnerable to a brood of rending stealers.

Yep. Strange, isn't it?

That's because Genestealers have secret soft spots for those who fail wraithsight checks. It has something to do with an inbred genetic defect... come on, everyone knows this. ...

So it appears the official ruling is that it is not possible to run the Last Chancers and the allied Culexus Assassin, *UNLESS* someone wants to argue that you can take advantage of this apparent "loop hole" and take a WH allied elites inquisitor and a DH allied assassin. I for one have never played against someone trying to do this, but it does sound viable with the RAW, so I'd definitely like some more opinions on whether or not you think this is a legal (and accepted) action (and whether you've ever run into someone using an elites inquisitor in a tournament environment for this).

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 08/04/2007 3:03 PM
Yep. Strange, isn't it?

Only strange if you assume that auto pass is the same as not having to roll.

The rules say you roll, and if you get low/high enough, you succeed; other rules say you automatically pass, they don't say you don't roll.

My two cents.


Pure Last Chancers are still an IG army, that is what codex you got them from, right. And DH/WH can ally with IG, right? So why would you not be able to take DH/WH allies? You don't need a regular IG Command Platoon unless you field a regular IG unit. So allies would not necessitate an IG Command Platoon.

Psychic test, roll the dice. GW has clarified over and over that automatically passing leadership tests does NOT include psychic tests.

So it appears the official ruling is that it is not possible to run the Last Chancers and the allied Culexus Assassin, *UNLESS* someone wants to argue that you can take advantage of this apparent "loop hole" and take a WH allied elites inquisitor and a DH allied assassin.


Where dioes it say this? Last time I looked page 30 of Witch Hunter offered Culexus assassins, since when did thyey become Daemonhunter only?

Posted By Orlanth on 08/04/2007 10:07 PM
So it appears the official ruling is that it is not possible to run the Last Chancers and the allied Culexus Assassin, *UNLESS* someone wants to argue that you can take advantage of this apparent "loop hole" and take a WH allied elites inquisitor and a DH allied assassin.


Where dioes it say this? Last time I looked page 30 of Witch Hunter offered Culexus assassins, since when did thyey become Daemonhunter only?

You're missing the point, we're looking at the option of:

HQ WH Inquisitor + Elites WH Culexus Assassin
                                   *or*
HQ DH Inquisitor + Elites DH Culexus Assassin

Being avoided by:

Elites DH Inquisitor + Elites WH Culexus Assassin
                                  *or*
Elites WH Inquisitor + Elites DH Culexus Assassin

The reason for this would be that it allows for us to have that IG Command Platoon that's apparently required for the army to be more than just Last Chancers. But it's very debatable whether or not this is allowed.