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Melissia wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:I keep looking over these threads and no one can figure out what this means.

The allies page isn't the only thing missing from these books, also missing is much of the background about the inquisition and the SoB/GK. These are just stripped down 'pure rules' codexes that haven't changed, it's just an e-release....but no one can figure out if the rules actually changed.

It's not even a complete list of rules. Try finding the Grey Knight rule.

The one that says "See page 3 for all Grey Knight rules."?

And in your earlier post you said that they had different versions all over the globe. Which ones are different?

puma713 wrote:And in your earlier post you said that they had different versions all over the globe. Which ones are different?

From earlier in the thread:

solkan wrote:Having been bored enough to try downloading the various language versions around 5:00 before going to sleep:
1. French version is renumbered, and HAS the missing two pages.
2. Spanish version has the old page numbers, and is missing the two pages.
3. English, German and Italian versions have renumbered pages are are missing the two pages.
4. There is no Japanese version.

I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow, since today's GW news says that they'll talk more about today's "great" release.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Uriels_Flame wrote:So is someone keeping tabs one way or the other?

I'm +1 they have/will pull allies. Email seems to say that is what is meant.

Nope, the email responses that have been given to us state that allies are still legal. One of htem was posted earlier in this thread.

Uriels_Flame wrote:So is someone keeping tabs one way or the other?

I'm +1 they have/will pull allies. Email seems to say that is what is meant.

At this point, there's really anyone's guess. Their further elaboration on DH/WH today was an ad for Stormtroopers. No comment on allies, no new FAQs, no new news. Insaniak pointed out in the YDMC thread that if doesn't really matter at this point because you can either house rule it one way or the other in your group for friendly games, and for Tournaments, it's up to whatever whim the TO operates on. I've discussed with my group and they're all for me keeping allies, so I've stopped caring about this. Wake me up when they actually announce a new (for real) codex.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:And in your earlier post you said that they had different versions all over the globe. Which ones are different?

From earlier in the thread:

solkan wrote:Having been bored enough to try downloading the various language versions around 5:00 before going to sleep:
1. French version is renumbered, and HAS the missing two pages.
2. Spanish version has the old page numbers, and is missing the two pages.
3. English, German and Italian versions have renumbered pages are are missing the two pages.
4. There is no Japanese version.

I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow, since today's GW news says that they'll talk more about today's "great" release.

The French version does not have the "Allies" pages.

Then your post contradicts what numerous people who have downloaded it have said. Check both versions, DH and WH.

Melissia wrote:Then your post contradicts what numerous people who have downloaded it have said. Check both versions, DH and WH.

No, they're right. I see it now.

Mn. A lot of people missed the induction rules in the WH codex, too. It's hidden in a little side bar.

Even so, the latest iteration of a codex is usually the correct one. I don't think it's ever happened before that a Codex has been discontinued, reprinted differently and then we're left wondering which one to use.

The only hanging evidence, to me, is that the French version still has the allies in it. Now, to me, that is not overwhelming. Some say, "Well they may have just forgotten! Look it's still in the French version!"

But what is more believable? Them forgetting the Allies in -every- .pdf but the French one? Or forgetting to omit the Allies out of the French one?

Occam's Razor - the simplest answer is most often the correct one. It seems to me that they may have simply missed the French version, or maybe the Leafblower isn't being abused in tournament play in France. I don't know. But it's more believable that they forgot one, rather than all the others that they didn't forget.

Was it a sloppy job? Yes. They left inducted units. So you get to induct other armies, but the DH can't ally. But were allies meant to be removed? I believe so.

Edit: And it might be important to note that the WH French version does not include them, though it does have the inducted unit sidebar.

puma713 wrote:Even so, the latest iteration of a codex is usually the correct one.

If that is the case, then DH is unplayable.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:Even so, the latest iteration of a codex is usually the correct one.

If that is the case, then DH is unplayable.

Why? Because it doesn't have an FoC chart? That's being a bit obtuse.

No, because it lacks the definition of many special rules.

Melissia wrote:No, because it lacks the definition of many special rules.

Which ones? You're not giving me much to go on here.

Edit: And now, I check the French version of the DH and it has 23 pages, not 25 and allies is gone.

There's some issue with the French download page or something. Ten minutes ago, I downloaded a 25-page version with allies. Now, there's a 23 page without them.

Edit: my link didn't take you to the French version.

Also, GW is telling people who call them to use the printed version rather than the PDF because the printed version is incomplete. Gwar confirmed this. *shrug*

Guys, can you take the argument to "You Make Da Call"? News and Rumors is not the place for this bickering. This thread is to take note of the pdf. availability and changes to the DH codex, not to the interpretation of them.

Melissia wrote:Also, GW is telling people who call them to use the printed version rather than the PDF because the printed version is incomplete. Gwar confirmed this. *shrug*

I'm surprised Gwar! confirmed anything about calling GW. He detests calling them. He calls them glorified box-packers.


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Fxeni wrote:Guys, can you take the argument to "You Make Da Call"? News and Rumors is not the place for this bickering. This thread is to take note of the pdf. availability and changes to the DH codex, not to the interpretation of them.

And we're discussing the changes to the DH codex, are we not?

Anyway, as it stands right now, none of the versions, foreign or domestic, have allies in them, WH or DH. WH still have inducted units, but those are different.

I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but apparently thse two PDFs are all the Ordos will be getting for at least another year.

G

Where do you get that from, BBF?

I don't play games, I just buy books because I like reading them and making theoretical lists. So I have zero vested interest.

But from a purely game design stand-point, I'm surprised no one has brought up Dogs of War in WHFB. My understanding was that to play a race you needed the appropriate Codex and a Big Book. Maybe some dice and templates. That's it. Needing multiple books for one army kind of broke that, and the reason (in my estimation) they did it to begin with was because they wanted to add flavor to each Codex or they felt they might be lacking (a side note is they might have wanted to try and force players to buy extra Codices). But it's incredibly difficult to balance an individual race, as you've seen by some becoming vastly OP or very weak depending on the release. Adding in units from another Codex and trying to estimate all the synergies there made it so much more difficult. So in WHFB a Codex is a Codex and I think that's going to be the future of them. They'll probably fluff out a race if they feel it needs more this or that, OR, more likely, just let it suck for a while.

Getting back to 40K, I think the same applies. Except 40K has, IMHO, a lot more individual unit special abilities. I can't imagine a Dogs of War concept in 40K. Even pretending it made sense lore-wise, but imagine Orks with Leman Russes or Tau with Assault Termies. Those weaknesses balance out the race. And it's a pretty damn fragile balance as it is. IG is one of the newest, and some say most balanced, Codices. Having it be able to function 100% on its own AND be able to pull from another Codex just from a purely mathematical, logical stand-point seems contrary to balance. If it's balanced by itself, adding more unit options certainly isn't going to make it under-balanced, it's going to do the opposite.

That's funny, I have no vested interest either. I don't use allies anymore outside of apocalypse anyway. But I see a lot of people who really despise the Allies rules grasping at whatever they can to try and toss them away and claim they're out of the game forever. This is no different than when C:IG was released, when people tried to use THAT to claim Allies rules were destroyed forever, too. People who hate Allies will always do this, until GW actually makes an official statement to remove them.

People don't hate allies themselves, they hate the broken exploitation of outdated rules that comes along with the DH codex. I don't think anyone cares if you take a Leman Russ or a Valkyrie. Just tone down the mystics and a few other things and it'll be fine.

Melissia wrote:That's funny, I have no vested interest either. I don't use allies anymore outside of apocalypse anyway. But I see a lot of people who really despise the Allies rules grasping at whatever they can to try and toss them away and claim they're out of the game forever. This is no different than when C:IG was released, when people tried to use THAT to claim Allies rules were destroyed forever, too. People who hate Allies will always do this, until GW actually makes an official statement to remove them.

Which they don't do. GW doesn't come out and say, "Oh hey, by the way, Allies are gone." I think releasing a .pdf Codex in which every iteration of it has allies removed is as an official statement as they're going to give, outside of a new, bound codex.

Which is funny considering GW tells people to use the printed codex because the pdf one is missing some parts.

Monster Rain wrote:People don't hate allies themselves, they hate the broken exploitation of outdated rules that comes along with the DH codex. I don't think anyone cares if you take a Leman Russ or a Valkyrie. Just tone down the mystics and a few other things and it'll be fine.

So what constitutes outdated so that we may consider it "broken exploitation".

I mean, I certainly got sick of facing Nob Bikers back in the day and felt that the wargear options certainly allowed exploitation of the wound allocation rules, but as it was "the rules" there wasn't much I could do about it.

You mean I just have to wait some arbitray time until I can say people can't use it anymore beacuse its too old?

Is it the fault of a DH/WH player that their codex is 10+ years old and they should be some how -more- punished because of it?

Game balance isn't punishment, and Nob Bikers aren't broken.

This isn't balance.

Another email from GW:

The new PDF is up for the people who do not have access to buy the codex anymore. The missing Alies section in the U.S format is indeed a mistake. And whichever one the tournament/event organizer says to use is the one that we have to abide by. I know that for our tournaments we will be using the Physical codex and NOT the PDF. I hope this helps!

Thanks!

John Hollingsworth
Customer Service Specialist

Wait, GW is actually taking a stance on something?

Melissia wrote:Which is funny considering GW tells people to use the printed codex because the pdf one is missing some parts.

A GW customer service rep. In other words, someone who takes your phone orders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Another email from GW:

The new PDF is up for the people who do not have access to buy the codex anymore. The missing Alies section in the U.S format is indeed a mistake. And whichever one the tournament/event organizer says to use is the one that we have to abide by. I know that for our tournaments we will be using the Physical codex and NOT the PDF. I hope this helps!

Thanks!

John Hollingsworth
Customer Service Specialist

Again, a customer service rep. Funny he didn't mention the fact that -every- .pdf except France has this omission. That and all the pages were renumbered. Funny they would've gone to the trouble to renumber them, not wonder why they had to renumber them because they were missing pages and then published it without them, with the numbers reformatted around them for every book except France.

Not saying that it couldn't happen - anything is possible - but improbable.

Melissia wrote:Wait, GW is actually taking a stance on something?

A GW customer service rep is, yes. But if GW backed up everything their customer service reps said over the phone or in an e-mail, they'd have a lot of explaining to do.

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is funny considering GW tells people to use the printed codex because the pdf one is missing some parts.

A GW customer service rep. In other words, someone who takes your phone orders.

Actually this would be the third time someone has said this.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is funny considering GW tells people to use the printed codex because the pdf one is missing some parts.

A GW customer service rep. In other words, someone who takes your phone orders.

Actually this would be the third time someone has said this.

I have an e-mail from a GW service rep that says I can make my power armour a 1+ save. That's cool, right?

My point is until you see it from GW (good luck trying to convince anyone that a GW service rep is the face of rules for GW), then what they've actually posted is the latest and legal version.

When or if they come out with another .pdf with the allies pages included, then it'll be settled.