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Henners91 wrote:If we're going to use examples... how about we talk about the wikileaks video of that Apache Gunship shooting civilians in Iraq? If I recall correctly the gunner, watching a wounded man dragging himself along the ground remarks something along the lines of "come on man, pull out a gun... do it"

Whereas I'm sure that carpet-bombing an area in which civilians are known to be present isn't something the US military would do (think of the bad-press!), the fact that soldiers are still taught to hate the enemy and to despise him really instills the wrong attitude.

Do I have to go put my life on the line for my opinion to count? Perhaps if I typed this whilst throttling myself with an ever-tightening rope, you might consider my points valid? It's interesting to think that one has to have a vested interest in the institution we're discussing to actually be allowed to talk about it. As far as I am concerned this topic was an invitation to voice an opinion on the subject... so I did so. I'm a Brit and I'm not in favour of our military. That's about it.

As for "better men", although, yes, I'm an unproductive student who has yet to create any wealth... There are Doctors, teachers and businessmen out there who share similar opinions... And to be honest, before a man who more than likely didn't do all-too-well in his education decides enlisting in the military would be the best route to success actually gets up and does so: HE is an unproductive slob lying on his sofa... but hey-presto, ship out and you're a hero.

Henners, i think i have pretty much disagreed with every single thing i have seen you post so far. Im glad to see you havent disapointed me.

That pilot your on about was awesome incidentally. If my convoy was enroute to a location and he saw 10 guys in a mob and at least two long barrelled weapons, gak, id buy the bloke a pint for brassing them up. Great job!

As with your political views, your views on the military are nonsense and ridiculously one sided. Nobody thinks that "hey presto" you become a hero if your in the military. I was in, i dont think im a hero, and most servicemen arent even in combat roles, i dont think they are heros either, i met alot of pricks in the armed services as well! And guess what? Im pretty sure most people will feel the same. And many doctors and civil servants are heroic. Its all down to the individual, and to think that everyone thinks that your automatically a hero just cos your serve is flat out wrong, and everybody knows it. What about the 95% of people who you know.. float around a bit and make decisions on an individual basis and dont have ridiculously one sided viewpoints?

Your political views are also ridiculously one sided, like you think that everyone who votes conservative loves Thatcher and thinks flogging should be brought back and everyone who votes Labour loves Ken Livingston and thinks that anyone earning over 50k a year should be locked in the stocks. Its not the way of the world mate, most people like to make decisions based on the current situation. You dont have to be ridiculously pro military or ridiculously anti military, and thats how most of us are!

What are you studying? Clearly nothing to do with history or politics eh?


EDIT. Just read the whole "fact that soldiers are still taught to hate the enemy and to despise him really instills the wrong attitude" thing. You have no idea what you are talking about, but i can see why you hate the military if you delludedly believe that every member of the armed forces is desperate to slay our nations "enemies" because they have been "taught" to do so.

Da Boss wrote:Henners, I think you have a bit of a distorted view of how modern military personel are trained. They don't get brainwashed into arab hating killing machines who thirst for blood, it just doesn't happen. Likewise, if they get given some sort of completely morally reprehensible order that would mean they would be committing a war crime (which is incredibly unlikely) they're not gonna actually DO it.
That's according to my brother anyway. He says he never hated any of the people he was fighting.

To be honest those slurs I made were directed at the US military... I'm not going to say that I consider the rest of the coalition to be "better" soldiers, but they just seem a tad less volatile... but ofc, I live in Britain. We still committed crimes in Iraq including torture but you don't seem to hear as many stories...


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But talking about war crimes is a tad off-topic.. The only way in which it really relates is that, if you join the military, you lose your right to refuse to undertake an action: You'll be prosecuted.

British troops torturing Iraqis would be very rare. I saw all the tabloid stuff and it was super rare. And the famous Faily Mirror ones were faked by a Scouse bloke in the TA who wanted a fast buck.

I didnt see any and i did two tours, you know why? Not just because its staggeringly unprofessional.

Im a human being.

If i saw someone torturing someone i would put a stop to it. Your painting people out to be animals and your attitude and ignorance is fething disgusting and offensive to anyone who has ever wore a uniform.

How many soliders and sailors and airmen have wives and kids? You think most of them would be happy watching somebody get tortured?

And you know i mean torture right? Not, some daft teenage soldiers making two iraqis simulate to be shagging each other and give the camera a thumbs up (staggeringly unprofessional, but not right up there with "torture")

Im talking torture. You know, tie someone to a chair and go to town on them.

How many British OR American servicemen do you honestly think would be happy watching that happen?

Please give me your answer, after that you can go and gak on some war graves in the local town centre. I mean, im sure they deserve it really.

How many British OR American servicemen do you honestly think would be happy watching that happen?

More importantly, how many US or British troops who DID witness or even suspected it would allow it to continue? Hint: We prosecute dirtbags who cross the line. That is one of the things which separates us from the bad guys. US trooper puts panties on detainees head, US trooper gets punished under the UCMJ. Bad Guy uses a drill on an Iraqi interpreter’s family to make an example of what happens if they work with the coalition and is praised by other bad guys and the video disseminated as a recruiting tool for more bad guys.

And yes, the drill IS used in just that way.

Back on topic...

The idea crossed my mind when I was younger and being into boats, I quite fancied the Navy. However, despite the fact I keep myself pretty fit, I was and still am incredibly thin (no muscles whatsoever), so decided armed forces wasn't for me.

Henners91 wrote:To be honest those slurs I made were directed at the US military... I'm not going to say that I consider the rest of the coalition to be "better" soldiers, but they just seem a tad less volatile... but ofc, I live in Britain. We still committed crimes in Iraq including torture but you don't seem to hear as many stories...

You are backpeddler prime there, my boy. First you say all U.S. military are murderers and social rejects, then when you get called on it, you say you meant you weren't looking down on them, but you were befuddled by the respect military personel get. Then you talk about British troops torchering people.
Tell you what, Sunny Jim, why don't you go down to the local pub and tell some British troops that have just rotated out about your befuddlement. I'm sure things would be cleared up for you in a fairly quick fashion.

Relapse wrote:

Henners91 wrote:To be honest those slurs I made were directed at the US military... I'm not going to say that I consider the rest of the coalition to be "better" soldiers, but they just seem a tad less volatile... but ofc, I live in Britain. We still committed crimes in Iraq including torture but you don't seem to hear as many stories...

You are backpeddler prime there, my boy. First you say all U.S. military are murderers and social rejects, then when you get called on it, you say you meant you weren't looking down on them, but you were befuddled by the respect military personel get. Then you talk about British troops torchering people.
Tell you what, Sunny Jim, why don't you go down to the local pub and tell some British troops that have just rotated out about your befuddlement. I'm sure things would be cleared up for you in a fairly quick fashion.

To be fair mate, ive just said that soldiers arent all animals and we dont tie people to chairs and beat them up, if Henners turned up in the pub he may well win this argument!

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Relapse wrote:

Henners91 wrote:
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But talking about war crimes is a tad off-topic.. The only way in which it really relates is that, if you join the military, you lose your right to refuse to undertake an action: You'll be prosecuted.

Holy crap, son, how old are you, anyway, 12? The more you talk the more you demonstrate how little you know about the way the military works.

I guess, Matt. Dickless wonders like this just get me going if they catch me at the right time. My neice was a field med in Afganastan and came close to getting her head taken off a number of times helping civilians over there. She only weighs about 112 and she'd be a better person to have at your back than this skin covererd turd.

The thing I love about military folks the most is all the infighting and bickering. However, as soon as an outsider starts attacking anyone, all of those rivalries and tensions melt into an all fronts unison.

If you want to talk s**t about any service, regardless of country, I suggest getting a first hand experience by volunteering. Otherwise the rest of us who know what we're talking about will tear your posts to pieces.

That's another thing for ya OP, you will go through what the marines call "the suck." The up side of it is that you are not alone in it. After it's all said and done, it becomes a story to reminise about, and a way to connect to other military folks about, because we've been there and done that in one way or another. That unseen bond that forms between you and strangers can be stronger than even family bonds. There are always exceptions, but once you are in the club, you don't ever look at anything the same way again.

A small example: I never ironed anything, and I never hung clothes up, I just shoved 'em into a drawer and grabbed what I needed. Then I was trained to see how horrible it looks wearing a wrickled shirt, or not shaving every morning, or hair out of control and not trimmed in a presentable manner. I iron all my uniforms and civilian clothes now, I get a haircut twice a week, I shave first thing every morning and I do it so that you can't tell that I can even grow hair on my face.

The military will give you self respect and self confidence if you let it. Follow procedure and what the regs and upstanding superiors say to do and you will mature, and carry yourself in a manner that makes people look at you and think "this guy is serious business, he deserves, at the least, my respect."

We get called heroes by everyone because we carry ourselves like heroes, we look like heroes and we act like heroes. Are we all heroes? NO. I'm not, I just ensure unfailing communications for all five services in my AOR. I've saved no lives directly, I've killed no one directly and I've done no heroic deeds worth mentioning. Yet, together with me and my mates, we've prevented unnecessary suffering and destruction, at the expense of a portion of our lives. Is that heroic? You ask me or any service member and they will all tell you the same thing. Nope, it's just our job.

I think a simple "yes" would do for me.

..so, in summary.. think about it before you do it.

..there's a lesson for life in general there perhaps.